Helmet Law Debate Babbles On

January 3, 2014

All Posts, News

Even in the depths of winter, power mad do-gooders continue their holy quest to compel all motorcyclists to wear special, plastic hats.

This winter the center of the fifty-year-old helmet law debate is in Michigan where adults who had been eligible to vote for President for at least three years were allowed to go hatless starting last April. After the law went into effect, members of the Transportation Research Group at Wayne State University began a study to find out how many riders were actually going bareheaded. The report titled, “Direct Observation Survey of Motorcycle Helmet Use,” was published last September but it did not begin to attract news coverage until last month.

The Wayne State Report

The four Wayne State researchers, in cooperation with the Michigan Office of Highway Safety Planning, the U.S. Department of Transportation and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, video surveilled nine Michigan motorcycle rallies and an unspecified number of poker runs last summer to see what people had on their heads.

The study found that now that they have a choice 27 percent of Michigan’s riders have ditched their helmets. The authors conclude that the increase in helmetless riders is “clearly associated with the weakening of the Michigan helmet use law.”

The rest of the findings in the 31-page report seem obvious to anyone who knows how to start up a bike. Ninety-four percent of sport bike riders wear helmets but only a third of the people on choppers and custom bikes do. Women wear helmets 59.6 percent of the time. On average four and a half percent fewer men wear plastic hats.

Michigan requires helmetless riders to buy an extra $20,000 in insurance.

So What

The report has become part of an escalating propaganda war over the consequences of going helmetless. The war centers around the question of whether wearing a helmet is a private or a police matter. Helmet law opponents generally see the laws as infringements on individual rights. Proponents are increasingly inclined to argue that making helmets optional places an unfair burden on taxpayers.

Even helmet law opponents concede that a helmetless rider is more likely to suffer a traumatic brain injury in a crash than a rider wearing a skid lid. Helmet law advocates emphasize the catastrophic cost of these injuries and argue that since nobody can afford to pay what doctors and hospitals charge the cost of these injuries must be born by society at large. The argument then boils down to this: The freedom to choose whether or not to wear a helmet is too expensive to be tolerated.

A woman named Jacqueline Gillan, who has become famous overnight for running an insurance company lobbying group called Advocates for Highway & Auto Safety, replies to the common slogan “Let those who ride decide” with the snappy “Let those who pay have a say.”

Last week, an editorialist for the York Dispatch was baffled that Pennsylvania legislators, “whose jobs, after all, are to make rules – have taken such a hands-off approach to regulating motorcycles and their operators.” The Dispatch, published in a town that is uniquely linked to Harley-Davidson, called the decision to repeal Pennsylvania’s helmet law a decade ago, “one of the worst decisions the General Assembly has ever made, and completely inconsistent with other legislation, such as the mandatory seat belt law.” The paper accused state politicians of “caving to lobbyists’ complaints that it (the helmet law) infringed on their rights.”


But a couple of other recent news items help put the Dispatch’s self-righteous ire in perspective. The Cedar Rapids Gazette reported yesterday that Iowa’s 317 traffic deaths in 2013 were the lowest total since 1944. Iowa is one of three states with absolutely no helmet law.

And just before Christmas Elizabeth Hovde wrote in The Oregonian that “we need to be careful about applying economic arguments to risky behaviors.” Hovde thinks the cost benefit argument for mandatory helmet use “does not consider the possible economic benefits related to dying young.”

“Helmets do better protect riders from serious injury and death,” Hovde wrote, “but if a motorcycle rider crashes and dies, there is no emergency care, urgent care or rehabilitation required. And when people die young, it can reduce the cost to others of Social Security and end-of-life care. Governments also might save on the assistance used by many traumatic brain injury survivors if more riders died.”

Elizabeth Hovde has a point. The economic argument is largely specious.




53 Responses to “Helmet Law Debate Babbles On”

  1. Austin Says:

    Poet Laureate

    ” most others just ride the lie,. have a taste, its fukin free, atleast thats what rumsfeld say and dik cheney, bushed? fuk me too “

  2. JMacK Says:


    I agree. Very poetic.


    Sounds like some bad mojo going down in your world with the loss of cats and dogs and ol ladies and Harleys dumping and such. Hope it starts to look up soon…


  3. fayettenamhoe Says:

    i owe you, me poor harley took another dump, ran into another human, she was a pretty thing, i may not move for another month or 2, it was a long year before this, i buried 2 cats 1 dog 1 old woman a 2 old men, given that one was an old tranny queen, i loved them all and will miss them, my apologies to anyone i may have offened, get used to it, and go polish your turd, and make love to the ones you love; p.s. get used to the put downs, their not my fault, blame it on 2 wheels, hahahahahaha

  4. WARTHOG Says:

    Ya know, though, there is something poetic about fayettenamhoe’s words. I don’t have a fuckin’ clue as to their meaning, but poetic nonetheless.




    “Don’t take the brown acid, but hey, man, it’s your trip.”

  5. jrnr Says:

    Sorry but could i please get the english version??

    jrnr ϟϟ


  6. fayettenamhoe Says:


  7. fayettenamhoe Says:

    i know, get uesd, its free, have a taste, then tell them how mutch you love being abused, be sure to take the armor off, no love involed,

  8. Va.Bob Says:

    [email protected] MacDonald’s lawyers might be looking for you.”Acid is groovy………”

  9. Sieg Says:

    Don’t take the brown acid, man…the brow. Acid is a bummer.


  10. Chief Says:


    That’s one way to kill a thread.


  11. fayettenamhoe Says:

    thank yrer fake god for the fake muthers that kill yre soul, and god bless the troops that keep the nitemars alive`

  12. fayettenamhoe Says:

    my blood stains, i watched, then i noticed, it was not my blood, it was the blood of a million others before me, and now when i ride i face the truth, and its been a richy mans whiten curse, go finger yor woman, find out that you been lied to all of, go eat yre pipes, thanks for the death sent from that killer called USA, the hitler youth

  13. fayettenamhoe Says:

    helmets? there great for scooping up tools, we don’t need no fucking brains, the cops will worry about that, no pipes involved, now i’m getting l;ost in her Vagine, ilove you too88

  14. fayettenamhoe Says:

    he said, hahahahaha, with a CCR mentality, some folks ar burned with a silver spoon in their mouth, most others just ride the lie,. have a taste, its fukin free, atleast thats what rumsfeld say and dik cheney, bushed? fuk me too

  15. fayettenamhoe Says:

    your Harley lied to you, davidson did you in, hahahah no helmet involved, how can you spell the name of all those followers, ms. spelled , i know you hate me too, her grave is is with his upon the hill, the one we built, the one that you took for granted, don’t call me a biker, my flesh is to raw, call assfu7ck, callme every thing wrong with my pipes, i may be a problem, don’t get in your5 way, the blood gets thick, and the helmets can’t catch all that blood, no brain inside, louder, louder, louder, they can still hear you scream, no helmets or pipes involed,, fuk me

  16. fayettenamhoe Says:

    he died, the SUV and a family killed him upon yor curb, rite in front of yre eye,l it was a Ford it was a family listning to Rush limberer, iraq 911 count down, she told me that she loved all the lies, bushed and more Bush love the lies, my apoplogies, the sins, my blood, you will see that your just another reflection in the chrome of another bumper, no Helmet involved, she lied to me, fuck me again, the lies, listen to sound of a drag pipe, 2 at a time, are you fucking deaf, helmets won’t save you, fuk yure duck hunting.com please send all hate male toburntmusard.com, and i will fuk every day no helmet involved

  17. fayettenamhoe Says:

    hahahahah, fuk yre ducks

  18. fayettenamhoe Says:

    i took him in my arms, his blood, his soul, he made a joke, helmets suck

  19. fayettenamhoe Says:

    and all those prertty people had a lawyer

  20. fayettenamhoe Says:

    Helmet laws; my brother looked so pretty with his head cracked open, the helmet did not make no sound, but the blood made a stain upon my pavement, only the car survived

  21. nikki Says:

    Sometimes I wear a helmet on a longer trip-mostly just in case I need to have one and I would be beyond pissed off if I actually had to buy one for any dumb ass reason of my own doing-but really, a helmet isn’t such a bad thing-gives you something to yank off in a hurry and throw at all the cell phone texting going on out there-which everyone should be a hell of a lot more concerned about, but as always, the real issues always get diverted by someone else’s ideal wet dream.

  22. L-Frame S&W Says:

    Reading all this helmet merde really winds me up, My better half & I each have a full face & a half lid, which we have to wear here in the socialist republik of Taxachusetts. We also wear some kind of lid when riding in NH, which is helmet free, because it is our CHOICE!!!

    If a rider chooses to ride without a lid, it should be their choice, just like seat belts. Just because I CHOOSE to wear one, does not mean that CHOICE should be foisted off on others.

    If an activity is to be curtailed by legal means, how about stopping/ticketing/arresting the fuckers that have the goddam cellphone glued to their ear while driving? HANG UP AND DRIVE!!!!

  23. Glenn S. Says:

    CN, I plan to be somewhere you might be Friday night, plan to ride if its not raining or below freezing. I ride a Superglide of a color Harley calls “black ice pearl” but is actually blue/purple flip paint. Maybe we’ll meet there or somewhere, sometimes. Always enjoy your posts.

    My mother used to live in Summerville, but she passed a few years ago and I’ve not been to the low country, except in passing, in awhile.

    Guess we’re pretty fortunate to live here, its a hell of a lot worse in the winter further north, even just a little further north, but the past year has just been a rainy season, a week or two of summer in September, and a month or so of fall. But the winters are relatively short, the people are good people, I generally love my life, and there’s no helmet law that affects me or mine. The OL is from Florida and lives for the cold, dreary day I’ll tell her to pack, that we’re moving there. I’m not there yet.

  24. CN Says:

    Glenn: I always read your comments as I know you’re in the upstate while I’m down here in Clarendon County. Every fall I ride your way a lot to see the colors of the trees and drop by the several Biker friendly bars, taverns and road houses. The upstate is really nice and not too far from the Dragon’s Tail and the Smokies. I spent a lot of time up in Rock Hill back in 2010 and always enjoyed it. We might see two or three inches of snow every other year down this way which as you know is quite an event especially for the kids I guess. Up your way snow is more common but what folks up north sometimes don’t realize is that our cold air is still very humid while theirs is very dry. Humidity & cold winds are a whole different ball game on two wheels but we get dressed for it and ride through it. Kinda’ hard to take the garbage to the dump on my bike so yeah I’ve got a pick up truck and for no apparent reason, restored a ’77 Corvette a couple of years back (8 Track & All) which from time to time I’ve been known to tool around in. Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul and the pick up moves the garbage, groceries and comes in real handy when somebody breaks down and needs to get their scoot back to the garage. Glad you and those like you are here. Outside of the Club I ride with I don’t have very many friends. Hope to meet you out there somewhere down the road, maybe I already have as you’ve written about Support Events I’ve been at too. Stay warm up there and know that come March, Spring will arrive on time.

  25. Glenn S. Says:

    CN said: “Last night as I rode home it was 23 degrees here in sunny warm semi tropical South Carolina”

    And Accuweather says it will be either really cold or raining or both in upstate SC for the foreseeable. I’ve rode year round in the four years I’ve been riding but I think it’s getting to the point where I’ll be in the car more than on the bike for a couple of weeks.

  26. Mike 184 Says:

    @ CN, yep I am pretty close with a couple of the ABATE guys up here in NC. They are still trying hard to get some traction on lighter helmet laws, but at this point the current law is a damned joke. All you have to do is contest it pretty much and the judge throws it out. Still a pain in the ass though.

  27. CN Says:

    Last night as I rode home it was 23 degrees here in sunny warm semi tropical South Carolina and yup I wore full face helmet. In severe thunderstorms, hail storms, shit like that I wear a full face helmet. When the weather isn’t going apeshit though I don’t. And, as I’ve said here before, my Wife has been a Trauma ER RN for over 40 years and she and her fellow Doctors and Nurses agree that the usefulness of helemts only seems to apply to very minor and/or low speed impacts. She also claims that over eager EMS responders often do great spinal damage to a downed rider by attempting to remove the helemt which should only be done by the attnding Doctor at the Hospital. Like many of you, our local news always says “the rider was not weaaring a helemt or was wearing a helmet” after reporting on a collision, I think they are told to do that by the teleprompter they are reading but it’s trivial nonsense because as has been demonstrated in the comments before mine, it’s insignificant to the report. We have a very good and active ABATE here as well as a pro motorcycle ABATE Member Governor so we are lucky where as GA & NC are not so most of us who ride out of state carry some sort of brain bucket. Raising the cost of motorcycle insurance for those who do not wear helmets in States where it is legal not to do so sounds like a court case in the making but there’s a reason why the Insurance Companies & Banks build the tallest buildings. Years ago I raced quarter mile drags and that is the one exception where I will grant that I felt the rule was appropriate, all else is control freak folly.

  28. Jim666 Says:

    Maryland use to have a helmet law that stated you must wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle on the roads .

    most of the Patches and real bikers at that time use to strap em on their knees while riding . hence the law didnt state it had to be placed on your head.. true story……………..

  29. Base Says:

    Planning a trip?

    This may be helpful.



  30. One Eye Says:

    “Let those who pay have a say.”
    Well, since I PAY the salaries of cops and rotten fucking politicians, I think I should have a say. What do you think?

  31. ap Says:

    It fucking burns my ass when news reports someone not wearing a helmet. Why cant the do gooders mind there own goddamn business? Hank jr was right. We need a coalition to ban coalitions

  32. BMW Says:

    Let’s face it — there are people out there — twisted, hateful people — who will any excuse to stop us from riding. They hate ANYONE who seems to enjoy life, and bikers are high on their hate list.

    Helmet laws became popular in an effort to “stop” bikers and motorcycle clubs during the late sixties. Of course “safety” was the given excuse for the restrictions that the haters in control of certain states tried to put on bikes — mandating helmets, banning modifications, requiring front fenders and brakes, you name it.

    When I started riding, helmets were not required in my state, and it was only later they became a requirement to ride a motorcycle on public roads. Now, after years of hard work, adults do not need to wear a helmet.

    The reason the haters in my state wanted those helmet laws? One reason given at the time was “To control motorcycle gangs”. Now I’ll be darned if I can figure out exactly HOW wearing a helmet would control bikers of any type, much less those like the vicious gangs (which were only seen on the drive-in movie screens as a second or third bill — I remember the “Werewolves on Wheels” seemed very vicious and perhaps even rabid as well).

    Forty years later, we have a new generation of haters who do not like motorcycle riding, and now they have federal money to support their campaigns against individual rights. Whether DOT or ATF, the haters will twist facts to support their war against enjoyment of individual liberties or group fun.

    However the hypocrisy of the haters can be seen in the very laws they espouse. If they were REALLY concerned about the costs to society, from helmet-less riders would they not demand that OFF-ROAD riders wear a helmet as well…

    The haters did not demand that off-road riders wear helmets back in the sixties, and the haters don’t today, either. It is NOT about helmets, it is about individual freedom. They hate the idea!

  33. Caretaker Says:

    Here in the facist nazi state of nj i’m required to wear one. HOWEVER,i also wear one ny choice. I had a bad wreck many years ago,and the only reason i’m here today is because of a helmet.

    Glenn S- fuck full face helmets!! I only wear a skid lid,year round,and I ride year round. I’ve found that neoprene masks are the best way to go for the cold,but a simple bandana over my mouth and nose,and one around my neck “cowboy style” works too. And neither one fogs my glasses,either.


  34. Glenn S. Says:

    No helmet law for adults in SC and the governor is a member of ABATE who said she’ll veto one if it gets to her desk. I didn’t wear one here and got me a low profile half helmet for out of state, and its not all that distracting. This winter has gotten a lot colder than the last few, and its been raining a lot more this year. So I got me a full face to break the wind and rain. I hate the goddamn thing. It vibrates at 70 mph, sounds seem to come from different directions than they actually do, and the face shield fogs up at every red light. I wear prescription glasses and it seems like I’m looking through too many layers of semi-transparency. Over-the-shoulder vision is not 100%. Maybe I’d be more likely to survive a wreck but I think I’m less likely to avoid one, and I think I should be the one to decide which I’ll give priority to.

    Obamacare did one good thing, it took away the lifetime cap of what the insurance companies have to pay. And since Obamacare requires everybody to have insurance now, ironically, the nanny government has taken away the very argument the helmet law supporters use: That since non-riders have to pay for long-term medical treatment, non-riders should have a say in whether helmets are mandatory. Under present law, I have to purchase insurance. Under present law, the insurance I purchase can’t stop paying if I become an expensive vegetable. Therefore, the non-riders have lost their say because they no longer pay. And any law that requires bikers to pay for “extra” coverage is redundant and a scam. Obamacare already requires that I pay for all the coverage I’ll need, whether I injure myself in a motorcycle wreck, a skiing accident, while mountain climbing, while cleaning out my gutters, while head-butting an elk, in a housefire, whatever.

  35. slycechyx Says:

    We all need to check our insurance policies, some refuse to cover medical treatment for a motorcycle accident if the rider was not wearing a helmet, even if only a leg was broken. My insurance I have on the bike does cover non-head injuries if a helmet was not worn, but my medical insurance through work does not cover any injuries if a helemt was nor worn.

  36. VINCE 1%er Says:

    NO helmet law here in Connecticut .MC Endorsement/Licensed drivers under 18 ARE required to wear a helmet,but after 18 its not required.
    I NEVER wear a helmet *EXCEPT* at the Dragstrip or in the woods riding my MX bikes or quads – and when travelling south to NY or thru NJ (both neo-nazi states that require helmets).
    Mass has a helmet law(Mass storm troopers are the biggest scumbags next to NJ storm troopers),but then NH is Lid free.
    NO Helmet law in S.C. ,Florida,AZ and many others I go to……

    I’m of the volunatary mindset when it comes to wearing a helmet on the *Road*.
    Although those I ride with dont wear em unless required by law,I wont villify those who choose to do so of their own free will . I dont sell helmets at my shop(dealer markup on Bell,Simpson,Shoei & others is stupidly outrageous). Until I read this post – I was unaware that Michigan required extra medical/liability insurance for helmetless MC drivers .
    Thats a pretty totalitarian requirement ,and the insurance do gooders/industry is just trying to retain more $ .They aren’t at all interested in personal safety-as the Fed Govt is also adding to their warchests by requiring (wanting) stricter nationwide helmet laws .
    Paladin also added an accurate Fact as well: It’s about Control – not $ altogether or safety @ All.
    Vince 1%ER

  37. slycechyx Says:

    Living in AZ, I have the choice to wear a helmet or not. I usually ride without, but when I do ride the freeways during rush hour, I do wear a lid.
    I’ve lost several friends in motorcycle accidents, most died from mid body internal injuries, wearing a helmet would not have change the outcome. & a few, a helmet saved their life. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
    The past year, a rider somehow fell off on over pass & landed in rocks a hundred feet down. The news was eager to report that he was not wearing a helmet, not sure how they think a helmet would have saved his life.

  38. Mike 184 Says:

    Where this problem really begins for me is the fact that the state mandates that we all have to have insurance. I am not saying that in itself is a bad thing, I want to have my stuff replaced if I get hit, but you have the government making the public hand over their money to corporations. Now so that those corporations can be more profitable they introduce laws that will keep the outgoing costs of those companies down, like mandatory seatbelt laws. And it also gives you local law enforcement a way to make more revenue.

    If it was about safety they would force the automakers to change the way seatbelts are in cars so you don’t have choice while driving but to wear it. The government to mess with the auto industry as a whole is not likely going to happen.

    I know that there is quite a difference in helmets versus seatbelts, and I know that when I wear a full face I feel like I can’t see or hear a damned thing. Doesn’t mean I wont wear it on long trips though.

    And that makes me laugh “Let those who pay have a say”… Well hell I didn’t know they had free motorcycle insurance?!?!? What a cunt. And study after study has shown that the actual costs to the insurance company per year is like 1-2% for all motorcycle wrecks not just the fatalities.

    I also have an issue with their studying rallies. Where they need to be is on the highways and observing people in 60-70 mph traffic. I’ll bet your helmet use in states where there is not law in those zones in more like 90% or higher. A lot of people going to/from a rally will not wear a helmet just because of where they are going.

  39. Paladin Says:

    Wouldn’t it be nice if we could apply Jacqueline Gillan’s slogan, “Let those who pay have a say” to our Government’s irresponsible spending?

    In comparison to the money wasted daily by our Government, the tax payer money spent on head trauma caused by motorcycle accidents, where the rider wasn’t wearing a helmet, is so minute as to be undetectable by the world’s most powerful electron microscope.

    The helmet debate, like Obamacare, isn’t about money; it’s about the ability of the few to control the many. It’s about a person or a small group of people being able to gloat over the fact that they are able to dupe the public and force their will on others.

    Long May You Ride (to those that deserve to),


  40. Austin Says:

    @Latigo Morgan – it’s here (click me)

    I saw helmetless riders in MI this fall & they looked happy.


    Stacy Dickert-Conlin, Todd Elder and Brian Moore
    Michigan State University
    June 10, 2009

    ” Our estimates imply that every
    death of a helmetless motorcyclist prevents or delays as many as 0.33 deaths among
    individuals on organ transplant waiting lists.”

  41. Amy Says:

    I think there’s like 19 or 20 states where adults are exempt from helmet laws

  42. Amy White Says:

    I have never, ever had to wear a helmet where I live. I do not wear one unless I am crossing a state that requires it. I abhor them. they obstruct my vision, what little hearing I have, and distract my focus. Fuck a helmet.

  43. Latigo Morgan Says:

    I’m still trying to figure out how the public pays for my medical bills for not wearing a lid.

    I’ve always paid my own bills. The public has never paid my way for anything. Hell, if they have to hose my blood off the pavement, they’ll find a way to bill me for that, too.

  44. Tooj Says:

    Dear Rebel, wonderfully terse with such an important concept. The economics of insurance and dying.

    I agree with Elizabeth Hovde. That comes from believing that you can see the validity in another viewpoint without necessarily wanting to apply the principle of early death to one’s own life. It also comes from wanting to evenly apply an equation to see how it all comes out. Sometimes being accurate can get creepy.

    But this is where paralysis by analysis can happen. If we happen to save a life that would have been snuffed by placing it in a DOT approved HEPA filtered carbon fiber bubble suit, will we save the curer of all cancer? Holy shit, maybe a helmet will save the life of the man that unites bikers worldwide and overthrows tyranny? Yea verily, yackety schmakety, blah blah blah. Just exactly how much do the chemicals of a dehydrated human come out to? Worth how much?

    It still all boils down to someone wanting to convince others to vote for something by using any means necessary including pulling those emotional strings.

    I lost my best friend last Memorial Day and the papers don’t report who he was. They made a point to report that he was not wearing a helmet. A motorcycle rider, dead on the scene, no helmet. It’s gotten to the point where this shit sounds more like a parrot with a really bad case of helmet kool aid tourettes.

    There is a reason it is said the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Intentions can often have little to do with what people actually do. I must be getting jaded as it all starts sounding like a bunch of postures. Fuck this feel good at all costs shit.

    Not only is the economic argument largely specious, but the emotional arguments are as well. The sky is blue, life isn’t fair and sometimes shit hurts. i just don’t want someone else to make my choice for me.

  45. jj solari Says:

    the thing that both sides never seem to argue about in this idiotic matter is that injured people are everyones’ responsibility. everyone agrees that’s it’s true. but it’s not true. so the helmet debate will never end with everyone being allowed to decide for themselves. eventually everyone will be forced to wear a helmet. because of the erroneous assumption that both sides agree is not erroneous.

  46. Fester Says:

    “Those who kill, get a bill.” Start making the fucking cagers who are texting and running us over foot some of the bill, then.

  47. WARTHOG Says:

    On an unrelated subject, are we suppose to click on all these embedded ads, Rebel? Seems like I remember the ads being like that a couple years ago, but I don’t know if your site was attacked again and you get nothing from the clicks, or…?




  48. WARTHOG Says:

    Illinois is another of the three states without a helmet law with the help of our strong state ABATE (Colorado is the third). Some call helmet-less riders here organ donors. I’m proud to be one such donor.

    “Hence the reason she’s a stupid fucking cunt and should be relegated to giving head when told to and her mouth shut the rest of the time.” Classic Phuquehed!




  49. Phuquehed Says:

    To that stinking cunt Jacqueline Gillan who says “Let those who pay have a say.”, she seems to forget that even those who want to have the decision to ride with or without a helmet *are* the same ones who are paying also…whether they want to or not…just like everyone else she’s lumping in that fucked up slogan of hers to make it seem like the motorcyclists *aren’t* paying anything.

    Hence the reason she’s a stupid fucking cunt and should be relegated to giving head when told to and her mouth shut the rest of the time.


  1. Helmet Law Debate Babbles On | Amy Irene White - January 4, 2014

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