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Gangs In Rochester

Tue, Dec 3, 2013

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Gangs In Rochester

The next biker civil rights case has been brewing for a little over a month in Rochester, Minnesota where the local police and a city attorney named Terry Adkins have pooled their experience and training and declared the Sons of Silence and the Med City Crew Motorcycle Clubs to be “criminal gangs.”

The declaration violates a Minnesota State Law which specifically forbids discrimination against club members who are flying colors. The law is Minnesota Statute 604.12 which states that access to public establishments cannot be denied to “a person who operates a motorcycle or is wearing clothing that displays the name of an organization or association,” unless that person’s behavior is endangering other people or property, or his clothing “is obscene or includes the name or symbol of a criminal gang.”

The legal dispute may eventually determine whether it is reasonable to call the two clubs “criminal gangs.”

Gangs

Social Scientists have been trying to accurately define the vague term “gang” since the juvenile delinquency panic in the 1950s. Most sociologists agree that “gangs” are social organizations that exist to serve the social needs of individuals who feel marginalized by society.

California, which was a pioneer in formalized name calling, uses the even vaguer term “criminal street gang” to create separate laws for people the police don’t like. “Criminal Street Gang” is defined under California law as “any organization, association or group of three or more persons, whether formal or informal, which (1) has continuity of purpose, (2) seeks a group identity, and (3) has members who individually or collectively engage in or have engaged in a pattern of criminal activity.”

Most rational and educated persons understand that the California definition is logically circular. It also uses the same logic that is applied in the federal judiciary to define the equally vague idea of a “racketeering enterprise.” The federal notion is that if some members of a social group are criminals then all members of that group must also be criminal. In the federal Central District of California, the premise of a case called USA v. Mongol Nation, an Unincorporated Association, is that since, as recently as five years ago, some members of the Mongols Motorcycle Club were criminals that entire social organization must be a criminal racket. It is a naked accusation against which all members of the Mongols must now defend themselves.

The Minnesota law that defines “criminal gangs” closely follows the current interpretation of the federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act which defines a “pattern of racketeering activity” as two or more criminal acts committed by three or more persons during the previous decade.

In Rochester

The current dispute in Rochester began when Michael Bader, an attorney representing the Confederation of Clubs of Minnesota, accused Rochester police of telling bar and restaurant owners to deny service to members of the two clubs. Bader wrote City Attorney Adkins a letter telling him that the two local chapters do not have a history of violence and asked him to enforce Minnesota Statute 604.12.

Adkins wrote Bader back three weeks later and told him “The Rochester Police Department tells me that the Sons of Silence is a motorcycle criminal gang with a common name whose members wear clothing containing an identifying sign/symbol.” He quoted a Department of Justice memo which defines the Sons of Silence as “an organization whose members use their motorcycle club as a conduit for criminal enterprises.” And he cited five criminal convictions involving Sons patch holders in Rochester and St. Cloud, Minnesota, and in Iowa and Colorado between 1999 and 2013.

Adkins wrote, “As such, I have concluded that the Sons of Silence is a ‘criminal gang’ as that term is defined by Minnesota Statute 609.229, subdivision 1.”

Members of the Med City Crew will also continue to be banned because they belong to a motorcycle club that maintains cordial and friendly relations with the Sons.

The next step will be litigation.

 

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117 Comments For This Post

  1. CN Says:

    Using this logic then one could ban organizations who have convicted criminals, wear the same gear and are three or more in number. The Police, Law Enforcement Agencies, Congress (see lapel pins), etc. Corruption within most if not all governmental agencies, including the military would bar most patrons in Washington, DC as well as every City or Town near a military base. I don’t mean to disrespect our military being a Veteran myself however, this broad brush would paint a lot of folks who would be shocked if thusly painted. As far as Rochester, MN is concerned, there’s a world class hospital there where those who work there all dress alike, could probably be shown to have a percentage of convicted felons and number three or more. Surely, this will all play out in the courts once somebody other than Motorcycle Clubs are so treated. Kinda’like AIDS which didn’t get front burner status until the middle class white population was infected in large numbers, it’s only going to be challenged when it hits closer to home. Masons, Lions & Elks beware! Bowling, softball and flag football teams are doomed.

  2. jj solari Says:

    according to bureaucrats gang is defined as everything but them.

  3. Mike 184 Says:

    So by that statute If we get pulled as a group and 3 members have “Illegal hlemets” and then 9 years later the same thing happens to 3 different members then it is a criminal organization??? Hell if they pull the group for speeding and then pull the whole group again then it is a criminal organization??? WTH man????

    No shit CN, look out Masons, ELks, Moose, Lions, Shriners, VFW, American Legion, ect, ect……

  4. BMW Says:

    Three good, fair and sensible, logical comments. Unfortunately fairness and sensibility and logic are completely foreign to Rochester City Attorney Terry Adkins and his friends at the Midwest Outlaw Motorcycle Gang Investigators Association (“MOMGIA” is “Scummbag Steve” Cook’s personal program of self-aggrandizement and money-making that allows him to tap into the seemingly endless federal and state “police-educational” funds).

    *Minnesota is divided into “multi-jurisdictional anti-gang task force areas” which are funded (in 2011-2012) to the tune of more than NINE MILLION DOLLARS by State and Federal sources, primarily grant #2010-DJ-BX-0438.
    See, https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ojp/forms-documents/Documents/Gang%20Criteria/2012%20task%20force%20report%20Final.pdf

    Let us look at Uber-Fuhrer Adkins’ definition of a criminal gang (included in some of the past newspaper articles and TV News):

    “There’s quite a bit of resources as to the fact that sounds [sic] of silence is a criminal gang. They have quite a pattern of criminal activity,” said Adkins.

    Adkins says the “Sons of Silence” have been charged* with things like drug trafficking and unlawful weapons possession throughout various parts of the country.”– TV6 ABC News
    See, http://rochester.kaaltv.com/news/news/139222-rochester-city-attorney-back-bars-gang-concern

    So, by his own admission, the Uber-Fuhrer Adkins is using a “guilt by association” or “bill of attainder” standard for deciding that the Sons of Silence is a “criminal gang”. Somehow, in his warped little brain, charging someone (in a different part of the country, NOTE: not necessarily conviction, he specifically mentions a “charge” — which in non-NAZI areas of the US also includes a presumption of innocence) with a crime somehow magically transforms membership in the Minnesota Sons of Silence motorcycle club into membership of a criminal gang). Adkins conveniently ignores the fact that the majority of SOS members are good citizens, not drug-trafficking gun-sellers.

    Let us utilize Mr. Adkins’ novel theories of legal jurisprudence. How many Catholic priests have been convicted of crimes such as rape, pedophilia and embezzlement in that same period of time? Does Mr. Adkins then justify discrimination against those wearing monks’ robes or Roman collars? No, he does not, because the vast majority of members of the clergy are good citizens, not pedophilic rapists and embezzlers.

    It would make exactly as much sense to ban the Roman collars and monks’ robes as it does to ban the motorcycle vests of the Sons or the Med City Crew.

    Is Terry Adkins relying on his VAST personal knowledge of motorcycle clubs, perhaps derived from watching late-night Fox-TV programs like “Sons of Anarchy”? Or is Terry Adkins just honestly mistaking the fictional TV club for a real club with a similar-sounding name? Or does Terry Adkins’ (mis)understanding come from the taxpayer-funded boondoggle called “Midwest Outlaw Motorcycle Gang Investigators Association”?

    Who knows? This is a self-described attorney who obviously does not understand the Anglo-Saxon principle of a presumption of innocence, or the legal prohibition against a bill of attainder.

    So what is really going on here? City Attorney/incipient Uber-Fuhrer Adkins is trying to give cover to a group of bars and restaurants in Rochester, which have, at the behest of the local police department, banned certain styles of dress by patrons, in violation of Minnesota’s human rights laws.

    The Sons of Silence and their attorney have been fighting this type of obvious discrimination at least since 2005, when they filed suit against the North Star Bar for discrimination. Such discrimination has been illegal in Minnesota since 1998, and the law provides for fines and re-payment of legal fees.

    Terry Adkins, as Rochester City Attorney, is trying to protect discrimination against individual citizens of Minnesota and he is deliberately flouting ancient Common Law, the Constitutions of the United States and the State of Minnesota, and the Minnesota statutes against discrimination. He should be ashamed. Upon reflection, I think I do the NAZIs a disservice by comparison. I apologize!

  5. Phuquehed Says:

    @BMW – Man, you *NEED* to send that post to the little dick-tator Adkins, the governor of Minnesota, and as many online newspapers in the area as possible. Not even a dumber-than-dingleberry faggot pig could miss the message and the huge neon arrow pointing out the fucking *OOPS!* and double-standards Adkins is doing.

  6. Budweiser Says:

    I know everyone hates “Gangland” on here but the video Rebel posted is one of the best of the series for a few reasons. The Sons of Silence member who aspired to be a HA only to realize he was in what in his opinion was the best MC is admirable and fuckin’ awesome. It also shows how sloppy the ATF gets on their UC investigations. For those of you not totally against the show, watch it.

  7. Budweiser Says:

    Oh, and the Sons of Silence patch is so fuckin’ cool. The A & Eagle, best beer company in the world!!

  8. Rebel Says:

    Dear Budweiser,

    I wrote the Sons before that show aired and told the webmaster on their site that Gangland was going to do a show about them. No Budweiser, I am not going to tell you how I knew. When the camera crews showed up at some event they filmed, about half the guys there were wearing tee-shirts that said “Fuck Gangland.” That’s why the shirts are blurred.

    Rebel

  9. OC VAGO 1%er Says:

    SAVE THE PATCH! Contact your local COC.

  10. Bill Says:

    I wear a tee shirt that says: “Fuck Budweiser.”

  11. Tooj Says:

    And you can imagine the reception here in K.C. metro, considering that Cook is from Independence. And the dumbass articles about “sightings” and “taking over bars and driving paying patrons out” when a few patches show up somewhere.

    Saw more goddamn “No Colors” flyers taped up all over hell, after. (For two weeks.) Shit, everything from hunting other clubs to attempting to set up a syndicate to… ad nauseum became the story of the day.

    Here’s the funny part… Not a damn thing has happened, nothing, nada, zip… Steve ran out of shit to try to pin on the situation and subsequently could not keep everyone intimidated and scared.

    Rochester is a short trip from K.C. so it stands to reason that the sphere of stupid would reach them.

  12. Panhead Says:

    I can just see Budweiser watchin the vid and jackin off. Damn boy. Now I feel all dirty and shit.

    Panhead

  13. LMFAO Says:

    Steve-o Cook ain’t nothing but the new flavor of the month. The public’s attention span is way too short for him to hold anything resembling credibility for very long. Its like the barking dog next door. Pretty soon you just don’t hear it any more. He’ll blow away like a fart in a high wind and soon be long forgotten just like all the other expert idiots do.

  14. Budweiser Says:

    Rebel- I know what the shirts said. Not sure if it was the same episode but they showed them at a swap meet where the sheriff walked around being buddy buddy with MC’s. I’m glad you gave them the heads up.

    Bill- Glad to see you back. Obviously, you don’t go to bars and wear that shirt. Sitting at home in front of your computer is a good way to show it off.

    Panhead- I guess that’s suppose to be funny? Why would I masterbate to a TV show featuring MC’s? I don’t want to get into a back and forth. I’m sure you have more important things to do…..then again I’m beginning to wonder. NUNYA

    I’m sure this won’t be posted

  15. Paladin Says:

    Bill,

    ROFLMAO! Rebel could sell those tee shirts on his website. I know I’d buy one.

    Long May You Ride (to those that deserve to),

    Paladin

  16. Tricky Tramp Says:

    Did I hear T. Shirts?
    Why don’t we produce Rebel Support Shirts and donate profits to ‘Save The Patch’
    Respects

  17. Tricky Tramp Says:

    Yo Reb.
    We already got that shirt sorted Right? HAW HAW
    Respects

  18. Budweiser Says:

    Yep, that shirt would make a lot of sense. Best selling beer in the world. Wear that around. It’s obvious that “Bill” has no connections to MC’s. Same for anyone else who thinks that shirt would be cool for that matter. Budweiser is the beer if choice for outlaws and bad asses age 30 and above. “Panhead” probably drinks an IPA….lol

  19. Sieg Says:

    TT, thinkin ya hit on a good one there. “Save The Patch”…STP. Where have I heard that one before?!?!?!

    Save The Patch
    Stop The Pig

    Got a ring to it.

    FTF/FTP
    TOSIAR
    5 TO 1
    SYLO

  20. BMW Says:

    Anyone biker (other than LEO) who wishes is absolutely free to use any of the arguments I made above in letters to editors or politicians or anything else. I got on a roll, but I was not saying anything others would not say as well or better.

    Sometimes I just get fired up at injustice, and I have to let it out.
    I have been to Minnesota and partied with those great brothers of the SOS, and I know them to be fine, upstanding men.
    I wish success to the Sons of Silence and all other Minnesota clubs!
    These civil rights are basic human rights!
    Love, Honor & Respect to ALL Minnesota motorcyclists!
    STP! SAVE THE PATCH!!

  21. Stevo Says:

    Budweiser,

    Dude, you are an authority on EVERYTHING, all must bow down to your vast knowledge. And thanks for telling us what we all drink! I didn’t realise I even liked Bud before you told me. But then again I’m a PH in a club where a beer whose label is red and white would never be sold so what do I know?

    Stevo

  22. WARTHOG Says:

    @Bill,

    Stay on him. You seem to be able to push his buttons the same way he does the rest of us.

    Hell, my club is pro r&w and none of us drink Bud. And what the hell is wrong with drinking IPA anyway, asshole?

    Fuck off and die.
    Eat shit and die.
    STFU and die.
    “Are you gonna fucking die on me? Do it now!”
    Just fucking die, asshole.

    warthog

    FTP FTF FTW

  23. Mike 184 Says:

    So I have a question, just where are all these guns, drugs, all these women and all of this fuckin money??????? I have been hearing about it forever and am ready…. LMAO

    On another note, Budweiser sucks, and when I can get it I love an IPA. SO fuck off…..

  24. Glenn S. Says:

    Right now, my anger is directed towards the sheep, for co-signing this sort of bullshit. Here in Greenville, they want to have a referendum on raising the sales tax to fix the roads. But they’re spending over a million to put a whole bunch of hi def, 360 degree clusters of five surveillance cameras all over the central business district. The local NBC affiliate interviewed a few people on the street, most of whom support this because it makes them “feel safe”. One empty headed soccer mom type said that they should make the cameras “cuter”, but its worth it because she “feels safer”. I can’t help but wonder if there’s a cue card with the words “feel safe” behind the camera.

    Meanwhile, the Big Club in this part of the world held a benefit to collect winter jackets for the poor, and collected about a thousand of them. Smaller clubs put on a toy run last Sunday that attracted thousands of bikers, and we all donated toys for kids. I saw one big box truck filled to the top with toys and a whole bunch of bicycles on a trailer.

    So who’s in the problem and who’s in the solution?

  25. Rebel Says:

    Dear Tramp,

    That sounds fine to me. I hearby authorize whatever it is that I am authorizing and the money can go to Save The Patch, to an interclub defense fund, to an interclub PR campaign or any similar cause. Go for it.

    MLHR,
    Rebel

  26. Rebel Says:

    Tramp,

    Also I just want to now publically apologize for those bad names I called you that time. I didn’t know it was you. I thought it was an idiot or a cop. All due respect. No offense intended. Mistakes were made.

    Rebel

  27. OC VAGO 1%er Says:

    @ Tricky Tramp-
    Great idea!

    SAVE THE PATCH!

  28. slow-n-low Says:

    Dammit Rebel, I do my best to avoid “Gangland”, and admit I’ve watched a few episodes, but I clicked on the video. But I’ve learned a shitton. It’s good to know that Colorado Springs is a wonderful town with virtually no crime…but what crime that exists is ALL due to the Sons of Silence. A viewer of “Gangland” is now informed that a town with 400,000 plus residents is completely controlled by (and I have absolutely NO WAY of knowing actual numbers) 10 or so guys in an MC. Amazing with all the money spent fighting crime, that those 10 men can’t be taken down and then Colorado Springs would be as crime-free as it gets.

    Also, I wish the writers of “Gangland” would make up their minds. Every MC they profile is known as the “most dangerous ‘gang’ in the country”, I’m starting to get confused.

    And not to hijack the comments on the above article, but does anyone who can use their mind to formulate a rational thought believe that the “member” that they wouldn’t show his face is actually a real member of that particular MC? Would someone really go on national television and say what that man was saying? Interesting…

    Respect

  29. OC VAGO 1%er Says:

    @Budweiser
    You’re an idiot.

  30. Tricky Tramp Says:

    Shit Reb.
    Don’t sweat it. I’ve been called a lot worse and I now know how to use this inter-continental phone. So I’ll have to get used to polite conversations from now on.
    Respects

  31. OC VAGO 1%er Says:

    Rebel-
    That is very cool of you. SAVE THE PATCH!

  32. Panhead Says:

    @ Budweiser

    To address your issues:
    1. Yep
    2. Yer a freak?
    3. Ok
    4. I do.
    I do enjoy a good IPA from time to time. I prefer Bourbon.

    Fuck you,

    Your buddy Pan

  33. Tooj Says:

    @Budweiser says: “Panhead- I guess that’s suppose to be funny? Why would I masterbate to a TV show featuring MC’s? I don’t want to get into a back and forth. I’m sure you have more important things to do…..then again I’m beginning to wonder. NUNYA”

    Follows it a couple posts later with: “Budweiser is the beer if choice for outlaws and bad asses age 30 and above. “Panhead” probably drinks an IPA….lol”

    Budweiser, do you ever really mean what you say? You just can’t help it, can you? Best you keep it on the net.

  34. Road Whore Says:

    “The law is Minnesota Statute 604.12 which states that access to public establishments cannot be denied to ‘a person who operates a motorcycle or is wearing clothing that displays the name of an organization or association,’ unless that person’s behavior is endangering other people or property, or his clothing ‘is obscene or includes the name or symbol of a criminal gang.’”

    Wonder?…ain’t there some members of HOG that have broken/are breaking the law? So then, by extension of convulted LE logic, does the Harley Owners Group then become a criminal gang? So how long before HOG members are forbidden to wear HOG/Harley patches into a restaurant, club, etc.?

    We all have known/currently know cops who have broken the law, or are breaking the law. Those stories are in the news every day. So when, by reasonable extension, will LE agents be forbidden to wear their colors into certain places, because again, by using ATF and other LEO logic: one bad apple spoils the whole barrel, so by extrapolation all cops are therefore dirty, right?

    Ride Free

    FTP DTM FTG FTW STP SYLPH

  35. Freeman Says:

    United motorcycle queensland check it out:
    http://umcinc.com.au/

    And Budweiser, no one i know drinks that shit, its watered down, tasteless ,no consistency piss, but il give you credit, you chose your screen name wisely.

  36. Rebel Says:

    Dear Tooj,

    I haven’t drunk Bud since it was sold to a foreign brewer. I drink Coors or Dos Equis. Occassionally a Stella if I am with those kind of people. I think the brewer who makes Stella owns Budweiser now.

    Rebel

  37. Rebel Says:

    Dear OC Vago 1%eer,

    I feel a concensus building.

    Rebel

  38. Rebel Says:

    Dear slow-n-low,

    Somebody told me the blacked out “member” was Blake Botteler (sp?), an ATF agent out of the OK City office who was part of a semi-farcical infiltration of the SOS. Agent Jay was part of that infiltration, too.

    Rebel

  39. Paladin Says:

    Budweiser is about as synonymous to an intelligent conversation as a bicycle is to a fish.

    Long May You Ride (to those that desereve to),

    Paladin

  40. ocmouse22 Says:

    Tricky Tramp very good idea !!!!

  41. OC VAGO 1%er Says:

    @Freeman

    That is one funny fucking response. I really am laughing my fucking ass off!

    By the way Fat Tire Ale is the absolute bees knees.

  42. Tooj Says:

    Dear Rebel,

    Like minds, as Colorado Kool-Ade is my standard go to brew. I find it has a quality that goes well with Jameson and stands well alone.

    We just had Duvel (major Belgian brewer) buy one of local breweries, Boulevard. They are allowing the name to remain the same, but it’s a shame. If I stray, it’s to fare from one of these smaller local brewers.

    Thanks for what you’re doing. Your patience reflects a scholar and gentleman hiding behind the curtain.

  43. Austin Says:

    I’m in for a Rebel-ian STP shirt or two. Long sleeves please.

    I think we can safely agree to designate Rogue Ale as our “official” Rebel-ian beer. Any company which has a “President of Vice”, ought ta be good with this crowd.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r7x4ndi7AE

  44. Phuquehed Says:

    Unfortunately it’s always doubtful I can afford a shirt, but we can kill two birds with one stone with this thing – Get YYZ Skinhead to make the shirts and that way Rebel gets something and she gets a little something too and we’re keeping just a little more of the money with people who are good for our cause. At least my scrambled brain is thinking this might work, heh.

  45. CN Says:

    At church I sometimes am the bartender, not often but sometimes, it’s a good place to meet everyone especially Lifers and get in some good conversations. For reasons I really don”t understand, Bud-Lite sells more than anything else. I prefer Molson Ex which you seldom see anywhere down here but truth be told I’d rather have a Coke on ice as I don’t drink like I did in my 20′s through 50”s, I’d rather ride as sharp as possible and nobody needs a drunk in the pack. Aparently I’m not alone in this as the number of folks getting wasted then getting on their scoots ain’t what it once was. I personally see that as a good thing (just my .02). If anyone were to actually make those shirts I’d buy one and if Tramp can and will all the better. Pro LEO documentaries like Gangland, Outlaw Bikers, what have you are what they are and the remote works both ways (channels up or down). I recall a time when cameras weren’t allowed inside certain events but with the advent of the cell phone/camera thats increasingly harder to police. Still think it’s a poor idea though and folks who visit my humble home are asked to leave theirs in their saddle bags or cages, our’s get stored in a bedroom in a drawer (hopefully that helps to eliminate the “open mike” listening capabilities they have but who knows). I don’t keep up on what the state of the art is on bugs but I sure as shit don’t say much on phones or in public, not like we once did anyway. I’m not sure who or what this “Budweiser” character is that keeps commenting here but I suspect he/she/it knows exactly who each of us is/are and you know what, who cares, FTW is FTW. I imagnie it’s Steve Cook who probably has a lot of time on his hands between speeches to assholes. It’s getting near the holiday as well as election season so I’m likely to see an uptick in LEO harassment, comes with the territory I guess but gets a little old as the years go by. They couldn’t catch the Boston Bombers even with advance warning from their Father, there’s no noticable down turn in actual street gang crime and cyber crime seems unnoticed until after the fact but to bolster LEO budgets they keep up the heat on the MC’s who aren’t too hard to find and fuck with and the media plays along as if this is some big service to the general public. Problem is and always will be, we aren’t going anywhere and certainly aren’t going away, why should we? Makes me all the more resolute to keep thinking FTW, one and all.

  46. FBomb Says:

    “Members of the Med City Crew will also continue to be banned because they belong to a motorcycle club that maintains cordial and friendly relations with the Sons.”

    Here’s the rub…what constitutes ‘cordial and friendly relations’? Attending their functions? Going on rides they sponsor or host? Supporting their fundraisers?

    So if the local HOG chapter decided to attend a fundraiser sponsored by the Sons would they be banned too? Or if the local family club that rides for fun once a month are invited to a party hosted by the Sons would they be banned?

    This shit has GOT to stop before EVERYONE is fucked.

  47. Mike 184 Says:

    FBomb,

    I wouldn’t even say that ‘cordial and friendly relations’ goes that far. That is pretty much anything other than the “Get the fuck off my lawn” response, right????

  48. Tricky Tramp Says:

    People.
    It was just an idea, after a couple beers, but Rebel is up for it. So.
    Got a good design idea in the head. I’ll get it sorted and post it here. I was thinking that because of shipping costs and import tax from the U.K. (where I do my thing) it might be more money for the ”CAUSE” if the shirts were produced Stateside.
    If I do them, I could only guarantee 10 Bucks a shirt, but producing them Stateside would earn more. Feel free to use the design, or, even better, cone up with a better one.
    Soon
    Respects
    T.Tramp

  49. OC VAGO 1%er Says:

    @ Tricky Tramp.

    Fuckin AY. Pretty cool of you to do so.

  50. Budweiser Says:

    Rebel- Coors isn’t American owned anymore either. Not saying that you said it was, but no way you can say a Coors or Coors Light tastes as good as Bud. That was not Blake Boteler.

    Paladin- You obviously haven’t been following along in reference to Bill. His posts are there, you can look them up if you so desire.

    Freeman- 5% bro, what do you drink?

    Phuguehed- I apologize for ever getting you upset seeing that you can’t buy a t-shirt. I promise if they are made I will buy you two.

  51. Budweiser Says:

    The comment directed to “Paladin” is half directed to “WARTHOG.” I apologize.

    OC VAGO 1%- I know that San Diego isn’t that close to you, but I will be out there over the holiday. Someone I’m traveling with would be more than happy to sit down with us and make an intro.

  52. Phuquehed Says:

    @Budweiser – Don’t stop at two, you cheap-shit waste of your daddy’s time…get ten to help others who are also in monetary binds, you accidental survival of an abortion clinic visit.

    Naahh…you’re not a troll here at all, you just hang around because we’re the closest thing to resembling knowing anyone but your mom outside your basement abode, right?

  53. Freeman Says:

    @ OC VAGO

    Thx its just my tolerance/patience towards bullshit seems to go down with every year that passes by.

    @Tricky Tramp

    Just an idea but because of the context and that it involves rebel, i could see Doc Holliday on the shirt with the text ”even a dentist can be an outlaw”

    Ride safe.

    Oh and bud, don’t ever call me bro again.

  54. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    Phuquehed,

    Props! Beat me to it — I was thinking along those same lines. (I already have a Fuck Gangland shirt that merely says “Fuck Gangland” without the middle finger–click my link.) The people in Rebel’s saloon have helped me with a fuckload of stuff including the fundraising thing, so I owe you something in return. I WOULD LOVE to contribute to a bikers’ charitable cause. I’ll experiment with some different fonts. The only drawback is that the shirts are white because I use transfers rather than silk screening.

    I usually like drinking beer I have brewed myself, because all my beers are all-malt with no corn/rice adjuncts and they pack a big malt-and-hops kick. To me, mass-produced fizzy yellow pilsner tastes like solvent and club soda.

    YYZ Skinhead

  55. Sieg Says:

    ButtWiper, the beer: Made of rice, how can anyone even call that shit “beer”?!?!?!?!?!

    ButtWiper. Doesn’t even ride, how can anyone take him seriously enough to answer?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    FTF/FTP
    TOSIAR
    5 to 1
    SYLO

  56. Sieg Says:

    I pretty much quit drinking years ago. Not a twelve-step thing, a liver thing. I do make an exception when I’m in Germany…best beer in the world, for my .02, is alte Kemptener dunkel Weisse. Dount you can get it here, but if you ever get the chance… Weiss Hirsch Weiss comes in a close second.

    Tee-shirts. Don’t know what the goings are elsewhere, but I was getting, usually, 50-100 done at a pop, three different sizes, on first-quality Gildan shirts, in black, three-color screen print. The set-up and computer charge was $50, and I ended-up selling the shirts for ten bucks a pop. Made like three bucks each for our Brothers inside. FWIW.

    FTF/FTP
    TOSIAR
    5 to 1
    SYLO

  57. Bill Says:

    Bud, coming out to SD to start that sex change I’ll bet. You’ve already got the female mind: can’t shut up, 100% drama, starved for attention, imaginary relationship issues with countless strange guys on a biker website. You’re a mess, Bud. Get help ( somewhere else).

  58. Panhead Says:

    @ Sieg,

    I travel to Germany from time to time too. Wurzburger Hoffbrau is my favorite. Weizen beers are a little heavy on the starch/sugar. I have high blood sugar and hafta watch it.
    Y’all get something going on the shirts and I’ll do what I can to move some of them for you. Profits back to the cause of course.

    Respects,

    Panhead
    “I am my brothers keeper.”

  59. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    Panhead,

    Have you had Würzburger Schwarzbier? It is the only Schwarzbier I have found in CA other than Köstritzer, which is my usual fav German beer. Ich liebe Köstritzer Schwarzbier.

    YYZ Skinhead

  60. Paladin Says:

    Sieg, Panhead, YYZ Skinhead,

    I’m partial to Paulaner Salvator. It goes great with a Limburger sandwich.

    Long May You Ride (to those that deserve to),

    Paladin

  61. Road Whore Says:

    Budweiser has offered a face-to-face with OC VAGO 1%er?? On behalf of the morbidly curious on this site, oh please OC, say yes! LOL Only on the condition that the entire conversation is fair game for this forum!

    Ride Free

  62. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    Paladin,

    German Doppelbock and German cheese: a match that was made in heaven (along with Polish beer and Polish cheese).

    Here are a couple of logos, one with “Save the Patch”, one withput: http://iprintanythingonshirts.com/bikergear/savethepatch1.jpg
    http://iprintanythingonshirts.com/bikergear/savethepatch2.jpg

    YYZ Skinhead

  63. Panhead Says:

    @ YYZ

    Black beer? Not sure. I’m with Sieg. For my .02, German beer is the best. I’ll look for it next time. Brauhaus Dunkel is good too. It’s local to Wurzburg I think. Thing is, everywhere you go in Germany, they have a ‘local.’ It’s all good to me.
    Fuck Budweiser. Not you Bud, the beer. On 2nd thought, fuck you too.

    Respects,

    Pan

  64. Panhead Says:

    @ Road Whore and OC VAGO 1%er.

    I’d love to be a fly on the wall for that sit down! I think Reb or someone from the left coast should try to accommodate ol spud if OC VAGO 1%er can not make it.
    Watch out for open phone or wire. I’m convinced he is a cop.

    Respects,
    Pan
    FTP

  65. Panhead Says:

    @ Paladin,

    Never tried that one. I do remember an Ale from Cincy years ago. “Old Froth and Slosh.” It was advertised as “the stale pale ale with the foam on the bottom!” Had a picture of a fat girl on the label with a pageant sash that read Old Ms Froth and Slosh. Lol. It sucked.
    There was another…Schenly (sic) “Little king.” Small bottles. Ale. Real fucking good.

    Respects,

    Pan

  66. Road Whore Says:

    @ Panhead: Oh god, you and me both! ROFL Yes, if OC won’t then Rebel himself should take the sit-down! LMFAO!

    Ride Free

  67. Paladin Says:

    Panhead,

    I live in the SFV, I can roll South, as I’m sure many of us “Left Coasters” could. Even if Bud(not so)weiser didn’t show, it would be as good an excuse as any, to share some beers.

    Long May You Ride (to those that deserve to),

    Paladin

  68. Paladin Says:

    Panhead,

    http://www.paulaner.com/our-beer/salvator

    Respects to you as well,

    Paladin

  69. Panhead Says:

    @ Paladin

    Good link. It’s been years since I’ve been to Munich. I get a chance, I’ll try it.

    Respects,

    Pan

  70. Paladin Says:

    Panhead,

    Paulaner Salvator is imported in the U.S. I’ve never been to Munich. The first time I ever had that beer was here, in SoCal.

    Long May You Ride (to those that deserve to),

    Paladin

  71. swampy Says:

    I haven’t had any “double shovel” in over ten years. I swear it had Valium in it.
    http://spatenbeer.com/biers-optimator.html

  72. JMacK Says:

    Mmmmm beer. Although no longer indulge in the wonderfulness of a good cold beer (or 28) I can go on record as saying I drank more than my share of Bud. Guilty as charged. However, I couldn’t stomach the American version. It is stronger and does taste different in Canada. As my balls dropped however so did my ability to stomach shitty beer. Before I quit all together (and here I thought it was enhancing my personality)

    T-shirts? I’ll buy a bunch. Whatever we can do to support the defense of this way of life.

    Respects
    JMacK

  73. Road Whore Says:

    C’mon Budweiser…what say…you’ve got Paladin offering a meetup now as well.

    Ride Free

  74. 11c_infantry Says:

    Well, hell. As an MC member, I didn’t realize I’ve been drinking the wrong beer all these years. Next time I belly up to a bar, I guess I better order a Bud instead of my long time favorite (PBR) since “Budweiser is the beer if (sic) choice for outlaws and bad asses age 30 and above.” I guess I need to tell our club’s bartender to just buy Bud for the bar from now on too. All our brothers from other clubs who stop by shouldn’t have the choice of their favorite beer because they’ve been wrong all these years too. Just gotta give Budweiser a big freaking “Thank You” for letting us know how to be a genuine outlaw badass. Obviously he knows more than those of us who have been living the life for many years.
    L&R to those who earned it,
    11c
    SOTSFFSOTS

  75. Glenn S. Says:

    In my drinking days, I used to drink Dixie when in New Orleans and Jax in Mississippi. Drank Pabst Blue Ribbon here at home (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpiYgFi42PM )until it went out of fashion and even the dives where I hung out stopped carrying it. Then, sadly, I went to Budweiser and my drinking career went to shit.

  76. Panhead Says:

    @ Paladin
    I’ll look for it. I’m down here in the big river delta. No place to get imports. I do travel quite a bit though. Keep my eyes open for it. I like good beer. Thanks for the heads up.

    Bud? Road Whore is talking at you. Stop in Memphis on your way west?

    Respects,

    Pan
    ’93′

  77. Budweiser Says:

    Bill- That response is so filled with inaccuracies I shouldn’t even respond. Do you want me to have a sex change? Maybe since you continuously stalk me on here. How many times did I outright prove you wrong on here? Six, seven…twenty??? I’m not here to make friends. I hope you are able to “answer the call” if you see a woman being beaten…I’m mean that’s your life calling, right? Go away, dork.

  78. Budweiser Says:

    Panhead- I definitely would unfortunately I fly when traveling across the US. I have no problem meeting anyone here in real life and drinking some Budweiser. Well, maybe not Bill. He may try and take me hostage and tie my up in his basement.

  79. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    Swampy (and Panhead and Paladin),

    Spaten Optimator is a Doppelbock like Paulaner Salvator, which explains the narcotic effect. For some reason German Doppelbocks have names that end with the suffix “-ator”. Of course American microbrewers and homebrewers aped the German tradition. I recall seeing a Bay Area-brewed Doppelbock called “Dodger Hator”.

    YYZ Skinhead

  80. Mike 184 Says:

    Paulaner and Maiselles Weisse are to excellent “biers” that you can get around Munich. Germany is my favorite country to visit. The people are great and the beer and food is excellent. I used to love Mexico back when you could just stroll across at the border, but things are a bit dicey these days and I am on the East Coast.

  81. Paladin Says:

    YYZ Skinhead,

    I like the version that explains the intials. The other version might be mistaken for an oil additive advertisement. Just my $0.02.

    Long May You Ride (to those that deserve to),

    Paladin

  82. Paladin Says:

    Bud (not so) weiser says:

    “Go away, Dork”. Dork? Really? I guess one of your parents will be the one to accompany you to SD, due to the fact that children can’t fly unescorted.

    Paladin

  83. Austin Says:

    @Panhead – Bud’s not a cop or an undercover – He/She’s fucking one.

    ‘Not saying that you said it was’ , ‘someone I’m traveling with’ , ‘ Maybe since you continuously stalk me on here’ , ‘He may try and take me hostage and tie my up in his basement.’

    Inflammatory. Self-aggrandizing. Righteous. Baiting, yet always victimized.

    My Magic 8 ball tells me Budweiser is sleeping with the Agency. JayBird or maybe Ashley/Falco. Or maybe Ciccione. Or Koz. Or George. Or Hollywood. Trust me, the only happy ending in your story Bud, will be when you snap out of it and walk away from the dirtbag. You might feel better after you go home and practice your piano, or take up watercolors.

  84. 10Guage Says:

    Been drinking the “double shovel” for 20 + years….although it can be hard to find at the regular grocer….the single shovel lager just doesn’t do it for me. I have drunk plenty of Bud, Coors, Sierra Nevada…Right now I prefer Tecate in cans or Corona light in bottles.

  85. Paladin Says:

    For a Mexican beer, I prefer Bohemia. Although as of late I’m liking Fat Tire Ale.

    Paladin

  86. Freeman Says:

    I don’t want to sound paranoid here but, all these questions about people’s habit is annoying, which kind of beer’s you drink, ok this brand is available in this and this state, this one you mostly find in the south which means that screen name is probably located in the south, frequent trips to Germany, noted.

    I might be wrong, but i just (dont and never have) trust someone who asks alot of questions on your habits where you hang out and what you do, it annoys me in real life, im even more suspicious of some one i don’t know on the internet, just my opinion.

  87. Panhead Says:

    @ Group

    My first response to Freeman’s post was gonna be something along the lines of “kiss my ass motherfucker, I don’t ‘ask’ anyone about their personal shit.” Then, I got to thinking that it’s good to be nudged every now and then to remember where you are and who is in the room with you. And we all know who is in the room with us. I think (my opinion mate) that that was Freeman’s main point. My SA would agree with him.
    Freeman, I do live in the south and “they” know where to find me I’m sure. My trips to Germany are legit. Family. However, I don’t want to compromise anyone else.
    Point taken.

    Respects,

    Panhead
    CDC FTW AMF

  88. Panhead Says:

    I want to take this opportunity to apologize to anyone I have NOT offended. I promise to get to you as soon as possible!

    Pan

  89. Freeman Says:

    @ Panhead

    Gotta love the net for that, shit gets mixed up fast, my comment was not directed towards you it was directed to that nosy lil person that’s somehow became this page’s mascot and that’s mistaken is area code for his IQ score.

    I don’t consider you nosy, trust me i spot a nosy bitch pretty quickly and the one im referring to as been doing it for a while now.

    But we got something in common, i probably would have started my response in the same manner.

    Respect

  90. Road Whore Says:

    @ Panhead…ROFL…I’m next! I’m next! Offend me, offend me! Wish I could buy ya a brew, pal.

    Ride Free

  91. Mike 184 Says:

    ?? Not sure if that is directed my way or if I am just flattering myself. If so I was kinda thinking like pan, I didn’t ask shit about shit, but I am going to guess that it is for someone else.

    Good call though. I am not interested in my door getting bashed in at 4am, but if it does happen I’d liek the think that dreamed up something better than me commenting on stuff here.

  92. Mike 184 Says:

    ?? Not sure if that is directed my way or if I am just flattering myself. If so I was kinda thinking like pan, I didn’t ask shit about shit, but I am going to guess that it is for someone else.

    Good call though. I am not interested in my door getting bashed in at 4am, but if it does happen I’d like the think that they dreamed up something better than me commenting on stuff here.

  93. Road Whore Says:

    I’m all for privacy and confidentiality…NUNYA. Howsomever, sports fans, there are free programs available that you can html cut and paste into your web page code that will tell you the ISP number (or however in fuck you say it) of the computer that’s visiting your page, where it’s located, etc.

    William Binney (who worked for the NSA for 30+ years) just revealed that the NSA has been and is grabbing every single cell phone call, land line call, text, e-mail, voice mail, etc., of every American citizen.

    I agree that one should be careful what one discusses in a public forum, but by posting on this public forum the powers that be already know exactly where each and everyone of us is located, and probably what our preferences are in toilet tissue.

    Which is why I say…DAMN THE MAN! FIGHT THE POWER!

    I also regularly flip off the eyes in the sky, and all traffic plate cameras I can.

    FTP DTM FTG FTW STP SYLPH

    Ride Free

  94. Mike 184 Says:

    Yeah, they just started putting traffic cams up in Japan when I was in Oki in ’99. My Gunny got a picture in the mail with a ticket so he thinks up the smartass idea up to take a picture of the money and send it back in to ‘em. Needless to say the JP’s were pissed and came to the gate to try and get his ass. Damn near had an international incident!!!!! I still think that was funny as shit though.

  95. Panhead Says:

    @ Road Whore
    Our paths cross, first ones on me. That goes for the rest of the gang, (oops, my bad) er crowd in here.

    Respects to you all,

    Panhead

  96. Panhead Says:

    @ Freeman,

    We’re good dog. Like I said, “good point.”
    “Stay alert, stay alive!”

    Respects,

    Pan

  97. Phuquehed Says:

    On another security-type note…I just got the latest EFF news e-mail (Electronic Freedom Foundation). It has one or two things we need to get as many people to sign as possible and quite a few must-read articles that *WILL* help everyone understand things better about protecting your electronic stuff (stuff on your computer(s) etc, like disc encryption with TrueCrypt) and all kinds of other really good info that the more of us know, the better we can fight back against the asshats in government who abuse their powers…which is pretty much all the time and on the slightest whim.

    Here’s the link. Take your time and read these articles and follow the links in the articles. It isn’t something that has to be done in an hour, but if one can take a week to read up on those things, you’ll thanks yourselves for doing it and then you can pass on that knowledge to others. Knowledge is power!!

    https://supporters.eff.org/civicrm/mailing/view?reset=1&id=517

    FTP FTG TOSIAR!

  98. Paladin Says:

    Freeman,

    Good call (on your post). As important as they are, there are times when it’s nice to be able to shoot the breeze about topics less heavy than the stories Rebel posts on his site.

    I can certainly understand how a simple conversation could lull someone into divulging certain information that that person wouldn’t normally converse about. It’s a shame that the Government has ordained it mandatory that such vigilance be practiced, or suffer the consequences.

    Respects to you,

    Phuquehed,

    Thanks for the link. Respects sent to you as well.

    Paladin

  99. Road Whore Says:

    @ Phuquehed:

    GOOD on ya! Thanks for the links…good info, and stuff we all need to be practicing just on general principles!

    @ Freeman: Good on ya, too!

    @ Panhead: Deal! :)

    Respects to all deserving…I appreciate every one of you and think well of you tonight.

    Ride Free

  100. Road Whore Says:

    @ Mike 184:

    That story is funny as shit! ROFL Excellent idea!

    Ride Free

  101. FF Says:

    Budweiser said: “I’m not here to make any friends.”

    Nah, gitout. Really?

    LMFAO

  102. Freeman Says:

    @ everyone

    They get your ip address from posts on sites, that gives em your area, village, in big cities it shows couple of hundred, thousands feet from where you live, that’s just first wave, if they want/ have reasons, they will go deeper,if they choose to go deeper they will also use the info they picked up from the net, then you get YOUR garbage bags picked up by a mini van a couple of hours before they should.

    Having a good router with a good firewall, throws some of the info to the wind, linux throws it off another notch, best don’t give out specifics.

    And cool ”dog” some use ”cats” cool, hot,swag, whatever, as long as it comes trough.

    As for my previous post, it was directed to trolls that com in here asking questions, and mostly the mascot ”king of beers”

    RESPECT

  103. Tooj Says:

    Care is important. As Rebel knows, my location changes daily. Sometimes, sometimes not.

    But I digress, Awwww shit Austin, you got it!

    Dork! That pegged it, after reading:

    “@Panhead – Bud’s not a cop or an undercover – He/She’s fucking one.

    ‘Not saying that you said it was’ , ‘someone I’m traveling with’ , ‘ Maybe since you continuously stalk me on here’ , ‘He may try and take me hostage and tie my up in his basement.’ ”

    Took a tic or two (damn Trourettes!!) but:

    BUDWEISER IS A WOMAN FUCKING A FED!

    All that coy stuff that if you read it as a guy comes off a flagrantly gay? Why? Budweiser is a woman.

  104. Mike 184 Says:

    Douche-weiser

  105. Dirty Dingus McGee Says:

    Getting back to “gangs”;

    Was surfing around and found this article. Mighty long article but it needs to be read everyone in this entire country.

    http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/atf-uses-rogue-tactics-in-storefront-stings-across-the-nation-b99146765z1-234916641.html

  106. Paladin Says:

    Tooj,

    I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of Budweiser. Budweiser is not a woman. Budweiser is a cunt.

    Long may You Ride (to those that deserve to),

    Paladin

  107. 10Guage Says:

    Dingus,

    Great article….same tactics used on clubs for years….now being used on the poor, disabled, and under-served (a population who has been harassed by LEOs for generations now being targeted by the ATF)….meanwhile there are Narco drug wars happening in all of OUR border towns that they are doing nothing about..and the ATF has a budget in the billions and is CONSUMED with eradicating bikers and preventing clubs from wearing identification marks out of some grudge or law fraternity barroom vow…..it is such a perfect snapshot of the state of freedom in this country….whatever your politics may be, as Americans I think we can all agree that cops weather, State, Federal, or undercover should be protecting children with severe learning disabilities and/or mental deficiencies. I say children because in my state they are considered children, meaning they are eligible for certain services and education opportunities until they are 22 or in some cases 24 in an attempt to protect them as this population of people is the most victimized group of people in our entire population. The idea that these children are being prayed on by law enforcement is BEYOND CONTEMPTUOUS!!! … I understand the public doesn’t give a shit about us bikers, but protect the disabled!!! especially when they are also disadvantaged and doesn’t have anyone advocating for them!….Not to mention the ATF have allowed our border patrol agents to be murdered, they have murdered a young veteran in cold blood for sitting on some stairs with his hands in his sweatshirt pocket, shooting family pets in front of children, murdering husbands in front of their wives, and murdering deaf men!!! WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DOES IT TAKE?

    It is ridiculous to I think our forefathers fought and died to create a country based on freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and this is how that government treats its citizens…..it is just fucking crazy.
    10G

  108. Budweiser Says:

    Got to love a story where I post. Over 100 comments easy. I’d love to meet you in person, Paladin. And no, I’m not a homo or female.

  109. Tooj Says:

    I dutifully accept my correction with a sense of gratitude, Paladin.

    My chivalry got in front of my sense.

  110. OC VAGO 1%er Says:

    @Budweiser
    I have yet to read anything you have posted that remotely resembles an inkling of true intelligence. I’m certain your insight would be much greater appreciated on another blog. Say something like the Kardashians Fashion Tips.

  111. vnvhl Says:

    California, which was a pioneer in formalized name calling, uses the even vaguer term “criminal street gang” to create separate laws for people the police don’t like. “Criminal Street Gang” is defined under California law as “any organization, association or group of three or more persons, whether formal or informal, which (1) has continuity of purpose, (2) seeks a group identity, and (3) has members who individually or collectively engage in or have engaged in a pattern of criminal activity.”

    Guess now, based on the recent indictment of 18 LA Sheriffs deputies, there should be little doubt about what the largest “gang” in California is.

  112. Tricky Tramp Says:

    Took me a while but..
    I think this design could work for the STP shirts
    first attachment is ”how it’ll look”
    second attachment is the ”artwork” for screen printing.

    http://www.bighousecrew.net/designs/STP.A.jpg
    http://www.bighousecrew.net/designs/STP.Artwork_for_screen_print.jpg

    Maybe a COC Rep could submit the design to the Merchandising
    dept. of the COC. They could then be distributed to the various
    swap meets and fund raisers or online outlets.
    Respects. Hope it helps.

  113. JMacK Says:

    Tricky Tramp,

    Looks great! Very solid.

    Respects
    JMacK

  114. Jim666 Says:

    Tramp great idea and design.

  115. Painfully Smiling Says:

    What am I missing here…. A “Gang” is a group of individuals who dress in common clothing with criminal intent and conduct…. Right? So, if the Minnesota Vikings dress in common clothing and have a total of 40 arrests since 2000 would they be considered a “Gang” in the blind eyes of the law? Fact is in 3 weeks the Vikings are having a “Gang” war on their home turf with their rival “Gang”, the Detroit Lions, who have had 7 “Gang” members and “Gang” President arrested within the last 1 -1/2 years. What is the LEO “Gang” doing to stop this madness?

    http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2011/10/minnesota_vikings_arrests_all_arrest_team.php

  116. Ol'Goat Says:

    FUCK THE POLICE

    FUCK THOSE OF YOU WHO TROLL HERE TO GET OTHERS TO COMMENT ON THEIR PERSONAL LIVES!

    FUCK AUSTRALIA’S RULING CLASS

    FUCK GANGLAND

    FUCK THE ATF AND IT’S DAPPER “CRIME FIGHTING” AGENTS. THE CRIME IS YOU LYING FUCKS WHO LIE TO EXTRACT AND DIRECT MORE PUBLIC FUNDS YOUR WAY.

    FUCK THOSE OF YOU WHO LIVE OFF OF PUBLIC FUNDS. GET A PRODUCTIVE JOB OR HOLD A NICKEL BETWEEN YOUR KNEES.

    FUCK THOSE OF YOU SHEEP WHO WANT SECURITY. YOU DON’T DESERVE SECURITY NOR DO YOU DESERVE THE FEW RIGHTS THAT YOU THINK YOU HAVE LEFT.

    …and FUCK YOU IF YOU ARE OFFENDED BY ANY STATEMENT MADE SUPRA PRECEDED BY “FUCK”.

    FUCK THE WORLD and you too.

    OL’GOAT

  117. Dante Says:

    I am by no means a connoisseur of beer, I like mine to be easy to drink and provide the benefits that alcohol provides… when I was a kid we used to drink the Blatz Light Cream Ale and while regular Blatz sucked pretty badly, the BLCA was pretty good. It came in pony bottles and as long as they were cold, all was well.

    I recently tried to light cream ale from Third Street Brewhouse and found what I have been missing for many years. Check em out they make some decent beers.

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