Police Harassment Suit Amended

October 22, 2012

Features, News

The federal civil rights lawsuit brought by the Southern Nevada Confederation of Clubs and numerous individual complainants against various Las Vegas area police departments including the notorious Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department and the North Las Vegas Police Department has grown.

The lawsuit now lists 32 separate “claims for relief.” Each claim, by an individual, seeks a “sum in excess of $75,000 for damages” and a similar amount in punitive damages plus a “a reasonable sum as attorneys’ fees, costs of suit and interest.” So it is now a $5 million lawsuit and unless Southern Nevada police stop singling out motorcycle club members for harassment the amount sought will grow.

The complainants are represented by Las Vegas lawyer Stephen P. Stubbs. The suit alleges that “Plaintiffs were willfully, maliciously, and intentionally prevented from associating and/or assembling without justification or compelling state interest as a result of their status as a motorcycle club or motorcycle club member.”

The original suit, brought last June, alleged two serious incidents of harassment against the Mongols Motorcycle Club; an incident involving the Vagos Motorcycle Club; illegal persecution of the Stray Cats Motorcycle Club; and incidents involving members of the Bandidos Motorcycle Club named Joseph Pitka and Stuart Cantara. You can read The Aging Rebel’s original report on the lawsuit here.

The amended complaint cites additional incidents involving members of the Mongols, Bandidos and Down & Dirty Motorcycle Clubs. The suit is reinforced by documents that seem to prove that police and politicians in Boulder City, Nevada intended to deprive visitors during the Mongols National Run last June of their constitutional rights.

Police Make The Law

For example, the suit cites an email written by Boulder City, Nevada “Intel/Gang/Graffiti Crimes Detective Scott Pastore” that closes with the words, “The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.”

In that email dated June 27 Pastore writes: “Just wanted to say thank you to all of you for a job well done. Everyone made an impact on keeping our city free of OMG rallies such as these. Will OMG bikers come to BC, yes. But, only as they normally do in packs of three or four. I don’t anticipate another rally based on the results. However if they do then we will welcome them the same way we did this year. In all it was a great learning experience for all of us in dealing with OMG groups.” It is unconstitutional for a policeman to enforce a self-authored decree that his city will be “free” of any lawfully assembling group. It is also rare for a cop to be so feeble-minded as to make such a statement in writing

An email written a few days earlier by Boulder City Police Chief Thomas W. Finn to two other officers of the court clearly illustrates that officials who are supposed to uphold the law conspired to break it in order harass motorcycle club members out of town. Finn writes Municipal Court Judge Victor Miller and City Attorney Dave Olsen: “There will be several dozen law enforcement agencies working in BC this weekend for the Mongols event. We are taking a zero tolerance approach with them and all the agencies will be citing them into our municipal court ofr ordinance violations, traffic violations and other misdemeanors. Is there a specific date you want us to use for a court appearance?

“Also, as part of our zero tolerance approach, all the law enforcement agencies have asked if our court and prosecutor would consider ‘no deals’ when the misdemeanors are adjudicated. Doing so would make it clear to the ‘Mongol Miscreants’ that Boulder City does not tolerate bad behavior.”

Quit Bitching

According to the suit: “During the (national run) event, on three separate occasions, officers of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department entered the Boulder Inn and Suites (the Mongols hotel) without a warrant or probable cause, despite clear notice to law enforcement that the property was closed to the public and requests that they leave the property. Attorney Stephen Stubbs and the owner of the Boulder Inn Suites went to the Boulder City Police Department to register a complaint in connection with these activities but were ignored and ultimately left without filing their complaint. Attorney Stephen Stubbs later reached Chief Finn by telephone to report the trespass and Chief Finn told Attorney Stubbs to ‘quit bitching.’ Chief Finn refused to let Attorney Stubbs document the trespass complaint.

The suit also alleges: “Mongols member, Rafael Garcia Espinoza, and his fiancée, paralegal and law school graduate, Lynn Vilpondo, were also in attendance that weekend. Ms. Vilpondo was stopped by Las Vegas Metro officers while walking down the street for allegedly appearing to look like someone Metro was looking for. Ms. Vilpondo identified herself and was subsequently detained by Las Vegas Metro officers without cause. Mr. Garcia expressed his frustration over Ms. Vilpondo’s detention, and was subsequently cited by Las Vegas Metro for allegedly using profanity while protesting.”

Also that weekend: “While attending the Mongols national gathering in Boulder City, Mongols member, George Olivo, crossed Nevada Way on foot when he was suddenly detained by Las Vegas Metro officers. Nevada Way had just been repaved and did not yet have any lines painted on the roadway. The reason given for the detention was suspicion of jaywalking. Mr. Olivo was asked for his name, which Mr. Olivo provided.

“Shortly thereafter, a second officer, Detective Woosnam, approached Mr. Olivo and likewise asked for his name, to which Mr. Olivo responded that he had already provided this information to the other officer. Detective Woosnam then arrested Mr. Olivo for obstruction of a police officer, violation of NRS 171.123, (failure to identify oneself), and public drunkenness pursuant to a Boulder City ordinance that has been preempted by NRS 458.260, which provides that it not unlawful to be intoxicated in public. Detective Woosman did not conduct a sobriety test or otherwise obtain any evidence whatsoever of Mr. Olivo’s allegedly state of intoxication. Mr. Olivo was released on bail 24-hours after his arrest.

“Shortly after Mr. Olivo was arrested, his wife, Nancy Laura, was traveling to Boulder City for the event in a truck with a non-operational motorcycle in the back. Ms. Laura was pulled over by Detective Woosnam for no apparent reason, without a warrant or probable cause. Detective Woosnam threatened to confiscate a motorcycle in Ms. Laura’s vehicle, but ultimately did not after the owner of the motorcycle returned from California (barely beating the tow truck) and demonstrated necessary documentation for the parts on the motorcycle. Before leaving, Detective Woosnam informed Ms. Laura that Mr. Olivo was too drunk to stand at the time of his arrest, which assertion is contrary to the evidence.”

No Steenking Fifth Amendment

In another example of police contempt for the law the amended suit cites “Mongols member, Charles Christopher Gulas,” who “attended the 2012 Laughlin River Run held April 25 – 29, 2012.

“During the event, Mr. Gulas was detained for openly carrying a buck knife on his person. Following his detention, Mr. Gulas gave the detaining officer a business card identifying Stephen Stubbs, Esq. as his attorney. This business card contains writing asserting Mr. Gulas’s Constitutional rights on the back, including his Constitutional right to remain silent and to his 5th Amendment right to counsel.

“The detaining officer read the back of the card and returned the business card to Mr. Gulas. Mr. Gulas in turn promptly handed the card to the officer once again, which was again refused. The officer then attempted a custodial interrogation of Mr. Gulas, completely ignoring Mr. Gulas’s assertions of his Constitutional rights. The officer threatened Mr. Gulas with arrest if Mr, Gulas did not surrender the Buck knife, even though Mr. Gulas was lawfully open-carrying the knife. The officer confiscated the Buck knife.”

Cops Can Go Anywhere

Earlier that month, “On or about April 14, 2012, the Bandidos Motorcycle Club held an event at the Eagles Lodge in Las Vegas, Nevada. The Eagles Lodge has a private, fenced parking area where the attending members parked their motorcycles while attending the event. There is a second parking area (inside of the first parking area) that is has additional fencing and a clearly posted sign that states ‘Members Only.’ James Gear, Jeff Ohm, and Dan Berstead, stood by the entrance to the second parking area, limiting admission to invitees and assisting with parking.

“Las Vegas Metro Officer Quinteros, badge #P9755, unlawfully entered the private parking area in a grey Honda Accord with California license plate number 3UOG418, breaking through the yellow taped barrier, ignoring the ‘Members Only’ sign, and despite being signaled to stop at the entrance. Officer Quinteros admitted that he entered the area notwithstanding the Club’s refusal to admit him, nearly running down Mr. Gear, Mr. Ohm and Mr. Berstead in the process.

“Officer Quinteros was followed by Officers Yatomi, badge #4602; Fink, badge #8904; Tripp, badge #6731; and Doughly, badge #13358. The officers did not have a warrant or probable cause to enter the private parking area. The officers were asked to leave by Attorney Stephen Stubbs, two Eagles Lodge trustees, and the Eagles Lodge president, James Kimsey. The officers responded that they have a right to go anywhere they want on the property, and only left after taking down the license plate numbers of all the vehicles within the private parking area.”

Jerald Murillo

The suit also tells the tale of Jerald Murillo who, “traveled to Laughlin on or about the weekend of May 1, 2011, to hang around the Mongols Motorcycle Club, to meet with family, and attend the motorcycle run held there that weekend.

“While there, he was detained by an officer of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, and ultimately arrested. Mr. Murillo asked the officer why he was being arrested and what he was being charged with, which resulted in his being told to shut up, then violently slammed against a police car by the arresting officer and handcuffed.

“After some time passed, the officer allowed Mr. Murillo to exit the police car and asked Mr. Murillo to sign a paper before he would be released. Mr. Murillo did not have his reading glasses and refused to sign something he could not read. Mr. Murillo requested that the officer allow him to retrieve his reading glasses. At that point, the officer told Mr. Murillo that he was being arrested and proceeded to put Mr. Murillo back in the police car. In addition to sustaining a cut to his face from earlier entering the police car, the officer pushed Mr. Murillo into the police car the second time and purposefully slammed the door on Mr. Murillo’s foot, resulting in a fracture, bruising and swelling which required treatment.”

Down And Dirty Sexual Assault

Another incident added to the original complaint occurred on or about May 12, 2012 when Down & Dirty Motorcycle Club members Stacey Frongillo and Michael ‘Mike’ Edwards were planning a charity event held by the Club to benefit St. Jude’s Children’s Hospital. When they left the event location, they were followed by Las Vegas Metro officers, among them Officers Fink and T. Pandulo, badge #7884.

“Ms. Frongillo and Mr. Edwards were pulled over by the Las Vegas Metro officers at the intersection of Arville Street and West Russell Road for allegedly failing to signal. Officer Pandulo informed Ms. Frongillo that he intended to pat her down. Ms. Frongillo requested that if a pat-down were necessary, that it be conducted by a female officer. Officer Pandulo denied Ms. Frongillo’s request, and refused to even check to see if a female officer was available. Officer Pandulo insisted on conducting the pat-down himself.

“Ms. Frongillo, who was wearing skin tight pants, could not possibly hide a weapon of any kind on her person. Officer Pandulo proceeded with the pat-down, running the back of his hand across s. Frongillo’s crotch areas and down the front of her thighs. Officer Pandillo then ran the palms of his hands down Ms. Frongillo’s buttocks, slowly and firmly pressing against Ms. Frongillo’s buttocks and thighs (which) Ms. Frongillo found extremely offensive. Officer Pandulo took no interest in the pack of cigarettes and lighter showing through Ms. Frongillo’s front pockets.”



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169 Responses to “Police Harassment Suit Amended”

  1. Junior Says:

    “Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

    and hey kids, all your friends can jump in a kill the cop making the unlawful arrest too:

    “One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

  2. Junior Says:

    “These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

    “An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260). -Junior

  3. Junior Says:

    “An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111. 491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v. Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621.

    “When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1. More to come… -Junior

  4. Junior Says:

    ….In the mean time, while i’m digging up more cases, ….you are correct, John Bad Elk v. U.S. [177u.s.529], was decided in 1900. You said that no two states laws are the same and I’m sure you are probably right about that; but I’m more interested in what the SupCt has to say on the matter. Are you aware of a more recent SupCt decision that supersedes John Bad Elk. Is there another more recent SupCt decision that says you cant kill cops attempting unlawful arrests? -Junior

  5. Junior Says:


    IMHO, you are wrong. I’ll post more cases within a day or two supporting my position. -Junior

  6. Pig Says:

    KK –

    If your gut has served you well in the past it would make sense to listen to it now (although I think Paladin has a good point about his intentions). I’ve posted it more than once on this site: “Be courteous to all but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence.” I can’t imagine how a man could come to be “well tried” on an internet forum. That takes years of standing next to a man where the metal meets the meat and asphalt and steel vie for your attention. So you don’t hurt my feelings if you don’t expose your back to me; in fact I think you wiser for it.

    I do hope that eventually I can have a conversation or debate on this site without all the stupid fucking insults and condescending comments and that the folks here will stop seeing disagreement as synonymous with disrespect.

  7. Shyster Says:


    I understand and I should have stated “the law has sided With the State Over the last 112 years When a citizen Kills a cop who was attempting an arrest, despite the lawfulness of that arrest.”

    Nowadays the general rule is that deadly force may be lawfully used against deadly force with certain exceptions of course. No State has laws identical to that of another State. Have a great week.


  8. Junior Says:


    we arent talking about cops that are “simply attempting an arrest”. We are talking about a cop attempting an illegal/unlawful arrest. -Junior

  9. Shyster Says:


    That case (1) was decided in the year 1900 and (2) the defendant was a cop who shot a cop. The law has sided with the State over the last 112 years when a citizen kills a cop who was simply attempting an arrest.


  10. Beowulf Says:

    I wonder if the iron order,blue knights, or any other cop club would have had this kind of harassment, and civil rights violations, if they had come to town. Zero tolerance? If that’s the case if should be enforced 24/7, against all people. How many people before and after Mr. Olivo, were arrested for jaywalking? If his wife had been driving down the road with a refrigerator, or a riding lawnmower in the back of her truck, would she have been stopped? Apparently it’s illegal, or reasonable cause for suspicion if it’s a motorcycle. Since when do cops pat someone down for failing to use a turn signal? Did the club come to town and demand hotel rooms and refuse to pay for them? Were they setting fire to the furniture and raping and robbing other guests? The owner of the hotel went to file a complaint about the cops harassing his guests, and was turned away. It’s all bullshit!! I strongly support all these clubs and their fight for their rights. I hope everything goes their way and these assholes are taught a lesson. Respects, Beowulf

  11. Glenn S. Says:

    Junior, I, too, believe that it will take stronger messages than the legal system provides before the cops will think twice before fucking with the innocent. I think Ruby Ridge was an excellent example of such a message, but I wouldn’t suggest that somebody I care about whack the cops that come to arrest him and then count on beating the case in court (or even making it to the jail alive, for that matter). From day one, the guy that resisted unlawful arrest, using deadly force, would be in the custody of the cops, whom I think most of us agree is the “gang”. He could easily be killed “trying to escape” or “as a result of regrettable violence” while in jail. When, after a few years of being held without bail while his family and friends are harassed, he gets his day in court, the judge might rule that the defendant must prove willful malice on the part of the deceased cop(s) to present evidence of self-defense. Here in SC, and in a lot of jurisdictions, self-defense is an affirmative defense, and the jury is instructed to determine guilt or innocence by the preponderance of the evidence, rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. (That might have changed, but that is how it used to be here, and why I pleaded under Alford, in Lexington County, in 1991. There were several elements that I would have had to prove before the jury would have been instructed to acquit.)

    The only occasion I can recall where somebody beat a murder charge where the dead man was a cop and the defense claimed self defense, the defendant was a minority that drew a mostly minority jury. He was found guilty of lesser, peripheral offenses and sentenced to the maximum, running wild, on each charge (I think 30 years total).

    Anyway, if somebody wanted to kill a cop, which I would NEVER advocate because it would be WRONG, doing it in the course of an arrest that couldn’t be proven to be 100% illegal AND malicious (as opposed to an honest mistake on the part of the cop), is probably the worst way to do it.

  12. Junior Says:

    Shyster & Pig & others:

    OK. It took me a while but I found the cites I was referring to. “Brown” was not part of the case that I referred to earlier, my mistake, it was a guy named “plummer”. “Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer’s life if necessary.” PLUMMER V. STATE,136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in John Bad Elk v. U.S. [177u.s.529] The Supreme Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from when it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed,”

    So bottom line: If a cop attempts to make an unlawful arrest, kill the cop. How else will cops “get the fuckin message”!? -Junior

  13. Paladin Says:


    Well, I can’t speak for Pig, but when you consider the service that my partner and I offer, shooting our clients in the back wouldn’t be very good for business, now would it?

    Long May You Ride,


  14. KK Says:

    Bam Bam: I enjoy your posts they hit home. Without getting into any boring details I don’t know what more I could lose material wise , really over the years.

    What’s the saying “I started out with nothing & still have most of it left”.

    You’re 100% right about your freedom & earning though!

    I am proud to say I have NEVER became a rat, held my mud, like some who I thought I knew over the years. It’s odd now I have a 25 yr old PO officer telling me how she can assist me if I want to relocate to another state.

    It seems I change business cards every year with a new PO. They are consolidating she told me, budget cuts.

    My apologies for not replying sooner, Sandy knocked the area out here of power pretty good.

    Speaking of Sandy & rats you learn alot about people who you thought you knew under adversity.

    Pig & Paladin: You guys come across to me like you have our best interest out here with some of your posts, but in my gut I feel like your the 2012 version of Robert Ford.



  15. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    Dear Mule,

    When you say “you people, ” are you referring to anyone specifically??. Or just those who admitted prior LE affiliation?

    Like I’ve said here and in other places on this site, I “know” very well. From both sides. And I’m just an ol’lady who wears support gear and happens to ride my own. THIS is the side I chose. And I gave up a steady paycheck and a really fucking sweet retirement to make that choice. All of that being on the social work side of LE, and realizing the whole flippin’ system is corrupt.

    If someday we come face to face, I hope it will be to admire each other’s scoots.

  16. Mule Says:

    And Rebel you da man! your shoulders are huge brother! I owe you dinner and a chat I know you wont be disappointed…Thanks for putting in words the mass media would piss there pants writing…

  17. Mule Says:

    Wow… I sit here thinking some of these miscreats AKA LEO are miss informed as to how traffic stops,searchs,bullying really work. Forgot to add intelligence gathering, psy ops, intimidation. Show of excessive force anyone???
    How about a Apache,black hawk,or snipers? Dogs,shotguns,miniguns armored shit of all types…

    These are all types of traffic stops or LEO actions i have been thru since being a friend of the club. Add up all the crazy stops, and I have received 1 yes 1 ticket in the last decade plus and seen 1 member arrested… The rest of it pure blind corruption of power.

    Do you people see any of this? No you don’t… Unless your on the machines special super brainwashed teams… Your a traitor to humankind, furthermore your everything that’s wrong with this country today!
    Noble my ass! Your kite flying, self serving, punks that switch sides in seconds.
    In the end of days your god will not forget.You have been bought for worldly silver… Don’t lie,cheat,steal or fuck anyone’s ol lady… Fuck all that are part of the machine! I, like the other team will hopefully die with our boots on, being a man! Not some bitch with a batman belt on…

    God help you, if we 1 percent ers ever see eye to eye…

    Fuck off the Mule

  18. Pig Says:

    @Ol’LadyRider – If you believe the Bible (and I do) then you know that here on earth, we are all fighting an unbeatable foe. Open the book of Revelations and you’ll see that this fight has a predetermined outcome and good honest men will lose this battle eventually. But fuck it, I’m going to fight it anyway. I’ve always been a sucker for rugged individualists; whether it’s the Spartans at Thermopylae, Rosa Parks telling them to go piss up a rope because she ain’t moving, or Col. Travis answering Santa Anna’s demand of surrender with a cannonball, I’ve always been inspired by those who faced insurmountable odds for a cause they believe in. I’m not so arrogant that I put myself on par with those folks or even in the same circle as them, I’m just saying that I haven’t been beat down enough to give up just yet.

    I do have to admit though that had I known a year ago what I know now, I probably would have chosen a different route into this fight than becoming LE. But then that question keeps nagging me in the back of my head: If all good honest men stay out of law enforcement, who does that leave to fill those positions?

    I hope that all doesn’t sound too arrogant and self serving. I don’t mean it that way but somehow I seem to have trouble making my intentions understood on this site. I’ve never had as much trouble articulating a point as I have when posting here.

  19. Pig Says:

    @stroker – I know that wasn’t necessarily an endorsement for me so maybe “thanks” isn’t the correct response. But it takes balls to go against the grain, especially when your opinion is contrary to those you respect and especially on a forum like this. In my opinion, you sir have no lack of balls. I’d buy you that drink (or two) anytime. I’ll even bring the large grains of salt if you’d like.

    You hit the nail on the head with what I was trying to say when this whole shit storm started. The point I was trying to make is that there are some very good intentioned folks here giving out advice that, despite their intentions, is wrong and the Feds have to be hoping that the rest believe that advice because it will make their jobs easier if you all are armed with bogus info. I’ve seen it happen in the Sovereign Citizen movement. Let’s just say that I can speak intelligently about them and I’ve seen some good guys who even had some wins in court go away because they thought they knew something they didn’t. Judge and Prosecutor just smiled their ass of as they took their stuff and led them out of the courtroom.

  20. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    Dear Pig,

    Thank you for your service as well. And your point is well taken. If you don’t feel, in the scope of your RD duties, that you are often fighting an unbeatable foe, then you are certainly a stronger person than I. I could not, in good conscience, perform those duties any more, nor could I watch/supervise others perform them. Though I realize our jobs are (were) very different, they are both part of that great, nightmarish machine.

    I appreciate your civility and am very glad to return it.

  21. stroker Says:

    Interesting thread this…………

    I will risk maybe pissing some of you off, but had to speak to this.
    When Pig stated:

    “Fuck it. I give up. The Feds must laugh their asses off when they read some of this shit.”

    …..I personally, didn’t think he meant anything untoward.
    I took it as an expression of a chuckle about all the comments on this site, and IF the feds were watching (of course they are), then they must be getting a kick out of some of our comments.

    I like that there are some members of the LE community posting here. Not because I side with them, but because it opens another window of thoughts, which I find interesting. I think Pig has been pretty much forthcoming about who he is, and what he’s about. Does that mean I trust or like him? No more than it means I trust or like any of you.
    I do, of course recognize my brethren among all the obvious scooter tramps and 1%ers who post here, and believe if we met face-to-face we’d be happy to share a drink (or two) together. Might even be interesting to sit down with Pig (but I’d be watching for his UCs watching me).
    Point being, I hope this site continues to allow honest opinions, even if not all agree with them, but simply for the chance to have debate, and insight into the workings of another mindset.
    Do I expect honesty here? Yeah, but will take all the comments here with a grain of salt. And in the case of those admitting LE ties, it might be a LARGE grain of salt!

    Now please CTL for Rebel

  22. Paladin Says:


    I’m not a member of a cop club. The people I ride with know all about me.

    Long May You Ride,


  23. Sieg Says:

    Fuck a Pig.

    I’m sorry, did I offend anyone?

    In case I did, let me just say again, FUCK A PIG.

    I’ve met a few decent street cops on the last 50 years of roaming the country, and that doesn’t say much when you consider that I’ve had contact with probably thousands of ’em.

    At this point in the countries history, we have to consider ANYONE who is hooked-into the Fed Monster to be the enemy, even if that means ol’ Ange down to the courthouse.

    We had a Sheriff’s Deputy in our little social org, just a bailiff, and when the shit came down laswt year, and we all got popped, guess who was front and center volunteering information “for perspective”?! Yeah, and he had never even been charged.

    FTP / FTF

  24. Grumbler Says:

    @Paladin – WRT your law enforcement ties, you posted this on Warlocks v. Warlocks: October 15th, 2012 at 1:26 pm I’ve been a patch holder for many years.

    Am not one to make assumpations, but wouldn’t be altogether surprised if it’s a cop club. Should that be the case, calling yourself a patch holder was an absolute travesty and, at the very least, deceitful.


  25. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    Dear Glenn S.,
    I understand what you are saying (I think). I think the folks that find themselves successful on the path of recovery have good intentions when they decide to go into the treatment field. I had good intentions when I went into juvenile probation. But so many things about “social work” become mandates, or ways to pigeonhole people, or ways to set people up to fail, or all of the above. And then there are the ubiquitous “liability issues” that are held over the heads of people who truly -at least at the outset – just wanted to help. Add money into the mix: grants, contracts, etc., and the result is a big, complex machine that has nothing to do with assisting people with making voluntary change and everything to do with glorifying the “system’s” ability to show the community what a good job it’s doing “keeping everyone safe.”

    I don’t know much about how probation/parole and mandated treatment is handled in adult cases because I only worked with kids. But I do know that NO ONE likes to be told what to do. I know that people don’t react well to “you should,” “you better,” “you need,” and threats of “consequences.” Even people who want to make changes in their lives find themselves overwhelmed, resentful, and defiant when all they hear from the people who are supposed to be brokering services for them are, instead, all up in their grilles with unrealistic expectations and an attitude that morphed from “I am here to assist you” into “I am here to fix you.”

    Research shows that kids (again, I don’t know about adults but I can guess that statistics would be similar) have a lower rate of recidivism when there is no system intervention after Court proceedings (meaning no term of probation supervision). In other words, LE and social workers make things worse. Locking people up makes things worse. Mandating services that people don’t need makes things worse. Telling people what to do makes things worse. Threatening people makes things worse. Why this continues to be the model for supervision and treatment is completely beyond me, especially since it is PROVEN that it DOES NOT HELP.

    IMHO, it is that “I am here to fix you” belief that sets the LE attitude apart from those they are here, in theory, to serve. And it’s no wonder that people resent it.

  26. AVAGOVFFV Says:

    Skip the bullshit you know damn well what I meant in my post. If you really do what you state and put the kink in the corrupt systems enforcers its welcomed but if your wanting recognition it won’t happen, I don’t know you.

    Trust and respect is earned more so when one is tied to law enforcement.

    Viva Los Vagos

  27. DesertH-D Says:

    Shyster – Sucks being treated like a “client”, eh?
    Sorry, couldn’t resist a little jab there… :-) Thanks for the update, I look forward to the reference so that I (and all others who are interested) can research it out.

    To all – Some say once a cop, always a cop. I don’t go quite that far, but a former LEO has a longer row to hoe to convince me of their sincerity at any given time. Openness regarding their background is a start, but it’s just a start…

  28. Glenn S. Says:

    Law enforcement officers see the world differently than I do, or at least that seems the case from where I sit. Even the best of them have dedicated their existence to enforcing the will of the politicians, and put the concept of law above the concept of right and wrong. The idea that one should mind one’s own business in matters that don’t affect them or theirs is something they just don’t get. As the law enforcement culture gets in their soul (poisoning it, IMHO), they generally subordinate even the concept of law to the concept of order, where enforcement of the law becomes dependent on the who rather than the what. Wealthy conformists get to live under a lenient set of rules, ignored by LEO unless they cross serious lines like child molestation, and even then the burden of proof is higher before LEO will intervene. Non-conformists are constantly being investigated, groups are infiltrated, the policy is one of arrest first and ask questions later. Often those questions are not regarding guilt or innocence, but whether something can be made to appear true for a jury. Laws are chosen for vigorous enforcement or ignored, based not on the law but on societal norms and political expedience. My conclusions based on experience is that LEO is the enforcement arm of a corrupt government, no different than the cops in some third world shithole or the enforcers for dope dealers in the hood. They just have better PR, lower pay, and fewer risks (despite all the hype, a construction worker is more likely to be killed in the line of duty). Sometimes they can be courteous, sometimes they can be assholes, but always they have chosen to make their mission in life locking up me or people just like me. They are not my friend, even if their chosen mode of transportation and recreation is similar to mine. They are not my friend, even though I am basically law abiding today. They see life differently than I do. I figured that one out very young. They are not my friend and I believe that if more people realized that they’re not their friend, the world would be a better place for most people.

    So here’s this thread, and it illustrates a gray area: Is once a cop always a cop? Are people like Paladin who was once part of the problem now part of the solution? Are people who work for the state in fields like juvenile probation LEO?

    I do Narcotics Anonymous, by definition a bunch of criminals because in this country nobody can be a drug addict without breaking a bunch of laws that have gotten progressively tougher and continue to do so. My opinion is that one cannot care about the well being of their fellow recovering addicts and also be a LEO sympathizer, since we’re all felons. We’re supposed to be there for our own, even when the addict relapses. I have never bought into the idea that some people should be locked up in jail or prison for their own good. I knew one woman who told me that she and her family chose to leave a cousin in the Greenville County Detention Center to do 90 days, rather than pay his fine, “for his own good”. The minorities killed him there.

    But some of my fellow recovering addicts have gotten into the addictions treatment field (although they’re slowly being forced out by master’s degree requirements and by cliques of M.A.D.D. members). Increasingly, addictions treatment has become something under the auspices of the state rather than the health care systems, such treatment has become court ordered rather than on demand, and addictions treatment counselors have become de facto probation and parole officers. The system believes there should be an element of punishment to addictions treatment, or at least a higher degree of deprivation of freedom than is truly necessary. Payment of inflated fees and obedience to petty and unnecessary rules is mandated for successful completion of programs that are court or parole board ordered. So I ask myself, are the recovering addicts who choose to be a part of that sellouts, or trying to be a part of the solution? Naive or traitors? Is there gray area there?

    I’m glad I work on machines. There’s an elegance to working with one’s hands and mind at the same time that’s damn near spiritual. And it keeps me clear of a system that poisons everything it touches.

  29. Jim666 Says:

    Red&Gold Says:
    October 29th, 2012 at 7:36 pm
    All I can say is wow! THIS conversation has certainly turned in a manner that I learned much from….I learned there are a shit-load of LE (retired and otherwise) on this forum!

    @ Red&Gold, Me too.

  30. Paladin Says:


    The district attorney’s have their own “yes men” (experts), and we manage to best them on a regular basis. As of this writing, we’ve never worked a case for a district attorney or a federal prosecutor, they don’t seem to like us very much. BTW, we also work for public defenders. On those cases, the court approves our billable hours, and we’re paid by the court.


    I’m not interested in making pals. I’m interested in keeping people out of jail, that shouldn’t be there. BTW, I didn’t know this was an outlaw MC forum. Thanks for the heads up.

    Long May You Ride,


  31. Shyster Says:


    I will call the number on your website by Friday to arrange a meeting. Take care.

    Ol lady rider,

    Wisely spoken words!

    Desert HD,

    I’m still waiting for the answer to your question about the NRS law. Damn lawyer friend of mine treats me like a client.


  32. Sieg Says:

    FTF / FTP

    The Constitution has been scrapped, and the Fed Alphabet-Soup Goonies run this Nation for their corrupt masters.

    There is no true freedon anymore, and anyone that attempts to live a truly free life can and will be killed without a second thought, their famiies terrorized, and their homes destroyed.

    It’s gone too far. The only solution is another revolution.

  33. AVAGOVFFV Says:

    What a bunch of bullshit… Always a few that fuck shit up for others. Check your sack and ego before you plant your ass in the chair or on the keyboard most of us are men behave as such.

    Interesting though that cops seem to flock to a outlaw MC forum and want to make pals.

    Just a thought may have been gas.

    Viva Los Vagos

  34. Red&Gold Says:

    @ KK

    You probably all ready understand this, and I know how it can be to know that… “In all honesty I probably could never afford a top notch criminal attorney (like Shyster) or your services and at this point in my life…” It is what it is, and a man does what a man has to do when it has to be done, but, with Respect, as you know, money spent on a GREAT attorney is the best money a person can spend when he finds himself in need of such services…I sold bikes, cars, property..everything I could…to pay my attorney in an action a while back…I would of just about Killed my number… I’d just about be ready to come out on paper now if I’d used the public defender….I can ALWAYS get more money…I cannot EVER get more length of life or free time…

  35. Red&Gold Says:

    All I can say is wow! THIS conversation has certainly turned in a manner that I learned much from….I learned there are a shit-load of LE (retired and otherwise) on this forum!

  36. KK Says:

    Paladin:You said your work for the DA’s also, no? (possibly it stated that on your web site) So if you did you would have their best interest or your best advice to them as well, correct?

    I hope your line of work finds all the wrongfully accused found not guilty, or better yet the charges dropped before it even goes to a trial. I hate to see anyone jammed up.

    In all honesty I probably could never afford a top notch criminal attorney (like Shyster) or your services and at this point in my life I am hopefull I won’t need another public pretender either, that being said, I would ask your partner about his name on the block if I met him though.

    Have a nice night.

    I’m just a poor working 1% keepin a flout out here.

    OL’Rider: You hold your tongue(fingers)well in replying to some of these posters out here, much respect to you.


  37. Pig Says:

    @Ol’LadyRider – Thanks for your service. I’m a Reserve Deputy; it’s not my profession. My profession is in the electrical utility industry. Before that I worked concrete construction and before that I served in the US Marine Corps. Here’s a thought to ponder: If all the honest and constitutionally minded people stay out of “the system” who does that leave to be in “the system”? The only “fuck you” I gave out was to Shyster and that only after he took to insults and name calling. I feel it was an appropriate response.

    On that note Shyster, now that we have all the “Fuck you”s out of the way, I have a question. When an undercover agent works his way up to a PH in a club and then busts that club, couldn’t he be sued for some sort of copyright infringement because they acquired trademarked or copyrighted items (the cut) fraudulently?

  38. Paladin Says:


    I believe I stated in one of my prior posts that my partner and I are retired deputy sheriffs. My partner (Richard Lichten) retired as a Lieutenant.

    In another one of my posts, I thought I was pretty specific, as to the services that my partner and I offer. I don’t believe I ever stated that “I had the best interest of everyone, including LEO’s & DA’s in the light of justice.”

    My partner and I testify for the evidence. In 99+% of the time, the evidence shows that the cops didn’t properly investigate the crime, charged someone with a crime they didn’t commit (I can’t remember how many times we’ve had “possession of a switchblade knife” charges thrown out, because the knife in question wasn’t a switchblade), falsified a police report, mis-handeled evidence, destroyed evidenced, mis-represented or omitted information in a search warrant’s narrative, violated their department’s policy and procedures, violated State mandated polcies and procedures, used excessive force, violated a citizen’s other constitutional protections, etc.

    Regarding the question in your post? The day may come when you can ask my partner that question, face to face, if your attorney should ever need to enlist our services, in order to help save your ass.

    Long May You Ride,


  39. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    Dear Pig,
    Yes, context is everything.

    I didn’t say I spent two decades lying and bullying children. I said I was tired of being expected to. Not that it matters, but I spent 12 years in probation; before that, I was a teacher. Before that, I served in the Navy.

    I didn’t judge you, I judged your profession. My experience allows me to do that. I don’t know you. I don’t know if you’re fucked up or not. Moreover, I didn’t throw out “fuck you” – but you did. I pointed out that you had many choices for how to respond to comments, and you chose “fuck you.” In my opinion, yes, that was arrogant and disrespectful.

    Your instant defensiveness is noteworthy, but not really interesting. Maybe you’ll take the time to read my comment again, to see if you can find more general statements to take personally and feel hurt about. Maybe not. I continue to stand by my statement that as part of the system, you’re part of the problem, whether you feel that way or not. That’s not a judgment of YOU, only of your chosen profession.

  40. possible fucktard Says:

    Nobody really thinks for a moment it’s ok to do anything, much less kill anyone, especially a cop, based on an anonymous post on a motorcycle blog referencing an unspecified precedent from a file they just had a minute ago. Do they? Just tell the judge you heard some guy named Brown who killed a cop got a walk so you expect one too. And good luck with that brilliant legal defense strategy. By the way, Junoir? Have you tried this yourself before you recommend it to others?

  41. Pig Says:

    @Ol’LadyRider – So you quit after nearly two decades of participation in “the system” because you got tired of lying and bullying children and you now feel empowered to come give me shit? I don’t know anything about your life experience and wouldn’t comment on it if I did. YOU’RE the one judging ME and telling ME how fucked up I am, not the other way around. And you call me arrogant and disrespectful. Talk about the pot and the kettle, huh? I didn’t do anything to you. Go back in your glass house and stop throwing stones.

    @KK – I said Fuck it I quit, not Fuck it I’ll never post again.

    Context people. Put the comment in the context of the conversation.

  42. KK Says:

    This is getting better to read everyday. So Pig posts: Fuck it, I give up, then returns like a true pig to say, get fucked.

    Then we have Paladin posting he is a retired cop who has the best interest of everyone, including LEO’s & DA’s in the light of justice.

    Just curious Paladin, your partner Richard Lichton, when he was a CO did anyone on his block call him Dick Lic? I had to go there, I always had nicknames for CO’s. All in fun, don’t take it personally.

    Most if not all the CO’s I’ve met over the years wanted to be cops but for whatever reason it never materialized for them.

    That being said, some were very cool to me .

    Best wishes to the wrongly accused in the article.


  43. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    Dear Pig,

    I, too, am retired LE, although I spent my career in the oft-ridiculed juvenile probation specialty. And by retired I mean I quit four years before I can collect my retirement because I was tired of, among other things, being expected to be a liar and a bully. Like many who comment here, I am also a veteran. I was committed -and still am- to assisting young people and their families in sustainable change, and felt for many years that the resources available to probation/social services as part of the system would allow such assistance in a meaningful way. Over time, I learned that the justice system in this country isn’t just part of the problem, it IS the problem in many cases. After being submitted to several IA “investigations” as a result of my “associations” and being told that I would never again promote due to my “lifestyle” (let’s see… Toxic, corrupt environment that I hated or loving, supportive culture that I love – tough one), I finally said enough. If I am part of the system, I’m part of the problem. And I can’t live with that.

    Apparently, you can. Fine.

    My point is, you had the chance to express yourself in any number of ways, but chose an arrogant and disrespectful route. Just as I’ve come to expect from “street” LE. Just as I’ve watched and experienced myself more times than I can count. Just as you have in other places on this site. If you are participating here to “educate” us, don’t bother. Most of us have had plenty of “education” from street cops, gang task forces, and the ridiculously bias and bullying court process. I’ve had the dubious luck of seeing it from both sides.

    Your “bad ass” attitude doesn’t surprise me or impress me. It’s easy to feel superior hiding behind a keyboard, a badge, and several thousands of dollars in “specialized equipment.” I stand by the statement that the system is the problem… And as part of that system you are part of the problem. You recognize “abuses,” but refuse to disassociate yourself from them. You see the stories of those who comment here detailing the suffering of such abuses, yet continue to defend your profession. No, I don’t believe all cops are corrupt. But I do believe that most are brainwashed into believing they are “protecting and serving” rather than oppressing and deceiving.

    Am I judging, perhaps harshly? Yup. But I’m sure you will not hesitate to tell me how my life’s experience is completely wrong.

  44. Shyster Says:


    Damn I was hoping you really were going to give up. Fuck you too.


  45. Pig Says:

    @Shyster: Get fucked. I’ve read several of Paladin’s posts which lead me to believe he is completely capable of answering for himself. He doesn’t need you coming to his rescue. In fact, I’d say that by his reply he decided that it was other peoples’ business.

    @Paladin: I knew you were making too much sense to not have some experience in Law Enforcement. Thanks for what you’re doing! You know as well as I that the reins need to be kept tight or more abuses will run rampant. When I was a kid I didn’t understand guys like you and frankly thought you guys were turncoats of sort. Once I got out of the public education system and actually learned about the constitution, I came to realize that you are an important part of the checks and balances our nation relies on to remain free. Wish there were more like you out there.

    @Bad Magic: Immature? I know you are but what am I?

    Three sentences composed of twenty words and somehow you managed to pull a veiled threat, some sort of emotional accountability, proof to a point you must have made at some time, more bullshit about my emotions and my blaming others for them, the disingenuousness of my efforts, evidence to the level of my maturity, and still more shit yet about my ever popular feelings. Are you really sure I said all that or are you just being an asshole because I’m a cop?

    I do want to clear one thing up though. I don’t know you or anyone else on this site for that matter. We aren’t friends and nobody here calls me Friend or Brother nor I them. Strictly speaking, while the overall cause and theme of this website is important to me, I don’t give enough of a shit about any individual here for them to be able to hurt my feelings.

  46. Paladin Says:

    @ Shyster,

    Your super secret identity is safe with us. We’re here to help, and I look forward to speaking with you.

    Long May You Ride,


  47. Drifter Says:

    Having been subjected to a questionable search, I’ll stick with Paladin (SN reminds me of the book people), BadMagic and Shyster’s input on this one.

    Present documentation, don’t answer any questions, try not to laugh hysterically if they say they are there to help you, and ask if you are free to leave.

    pig says, “Fuck it. I give up. The Feds must laugh their asses off when they read some of this shit.”

    As hard as they laugh when they are making things up?

  48. Paladin Says:

    @ Pig,

    My partner and I are retired Deputy Sheriffs. Shortly after I started posting on this site, I sent Rebel an email, introducing myself, letting him know who I was, where my head was at, and what I was about.

    If Rebel still has the email I sent him, and if he so chooses, he’s welcome to post it.

    Long May You Ride,


  49. Shyster Says:

    BAd Magic,

    All of your posts on this thread have been very well said.


    Looks like I may be calling on you and your partner soon. Just don’t post my super secret identity to this here blog. My office is in the City of L.A. So you are not too far away.


    What the fuck was that! Someone wrote something you didn’t agree with and you respond like a 3rd grade spoiled little girl?! And regarding the Feds … Fuck those people. Lastly, who cares if Paladin is an ex cop. That’s Paladins business.


  50. BadMagic Says:

    Red&Gold, Thanks. Please do. I used to think that about cell phones. Someone posted a good paper on the subject earlier. I think it is still unclear, unchallenged, or at a minimum changing. At least if a person sets a password, there is proof of an ‘expected right to privacy’. Seems a lot of case law has to do with a persons ‘expected right to privacy’. If you say no to interviews, no to searches, keep you car / bike locked, and phone password protected, it is harder to say you didn’t expect privacy.

    disclosure: I think your part of the problem. By your choosing to be in LE in my opinion, you’ve already shown yourself to be irresponsible to our society and an extreme danger to patriots.

    Now, since you posted your emotional jab, it can be said you intended to direct that toward the readers of this thread. You weren’t just talking to yourself.

    What exactly do you give up on? It is obvious your having a strong emotion that your holding other people responsible for. Otherwise, why would you post?

    I assume since you’re veiled threat involves the Feds, in your head, you think your trying to do us a favor? Trying to protect us from the man? Trying to educate us?

    I think you’ve just proven my point. If you were genuine in your participation, you wouldn’t give up when your feelings got hurt. You most certainly wouldn’t respond with a vague adolescent “Fuck it. I give up.” followed by a “people are laughing at you” statement.

    Responsible adults communicate. Immature, irresponsible people blame others for their emotions and then show their true colors by harming, wishing harm, or some other type of attack that is meant to inflict emotional pain. That last post of yours undermined any efforts you may have put out to come across as genuine.


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