The Mongols Case Day 1462

October 9, 2012

All Posts, News

The Mongols case may never end. They should teach it in law school. It should be a required course. They should call it Introduction to Zombie Prosecutions.

It isn’t even a case. It is a keepsake box of cases including U.S. v. Cavazos et al.; Ramon Rivera v Kenneth E. Melson, Actiong Director, Bureau of alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, John A. Torres, Special Agent in Charge ATF Los Angeles Field Division, Eric H. Holder, United States Attorney General et al. and United States of America v. Assorted Firearms, Motorcycles and Other Personal Property.

The case officially began four years ago on October 9, 2008 when an Assistant United States Attorney named Christopher Brunwin gave a federal grand jury an indictment to return. Coincidentally this was a few mere hours after a Mongol named Manuel Vincent “Hitman” Martin was shot off his motorcycle on the Glendale Freeway. This murder, anyone who does not work for the ATF might agree, was suspicious.

The indictment was proceeded by an ATF investigation that lasted at least three years and that involved the fulltime efforts of at least 13 undercover ATF agents, an unknown number greater than eight of paid confidential informants, numerous Tactical Field Officers, many Sources of Information. Then there were the wiretaps, the stand-by Swat Teams, the Mission Impossible gadgets and the prostitution of the American press. The case sprawled like Kudzu and became a model for additional cases against the Pagans Motorcycle Club and the American Outlaws Association. As most readers here know, a tiny fraction of this made it into a slim book called Out Bad.

The idea of the Mongols case was to work out a portfolio of procedures, protocols and precedents that would make it possible to outlaw outlaw motorcycle clubs. It almost worked. In Russia or China or Syria the case would have died of shame by now but the United States Department of Justice has no shame. And so today, day 1462, this case is still making news.

Paying The Lawyers

The press release that announced the beginning of the Mongols case asserted “If any law enforcement officer sees a Mongol wearing his patch, he will be authorized to stop that gang member and literally take the jacket right off his back.” And, this claim was true although the keyword in this pronouncement was “authorized” and the press release did not go on to explain that these assaults and thefts were authorized by the poltergeist of Joseph Stalin. Several federal judges eventually noticed that the criminalization of the Mongols symbols was unconstitutional but the key case was brought by an humble, stolid and unprepossessing Mongol in San Diego named Ramon Rivera.

Rivera was represented in his lawsuit against all the bastards by David Blair-Loy of the American Civil Liberties Union. Rivera and Loy won the case. An Assistant U.S. Attorney named Steven R. Welk who is the Chief of the Los Angeles area Asset Forfeiture Division lost. A Federal District judge named David O. Carter, who fears neither anti-Obama birthers nor conmen like Welk, declared the Mongols’ victory on January 4, 2011. “What they (meaning Welk, Brunwin and their associates) did was an outrageous violation of the First Amendment, and an absolute abuse of forfeiture and trademark laws,” Blair-Loy told Michael Doyle of McClatchy Newspapers for a story published today.

Welk appealed. Thirteen months later, on February 12, 2012 Carter wrote a 15-page memo that among other things ordered the United States to pay Blair-Loy, another attorney named Alan Mansfield and an unnamed paralegal $243,824 in professional fees, $8,642 in additional fees and $740.78 in costs. “They fought us tooth and nail, every step of the way,” Loy told Doyle, “and they forced us to work all those hours and incur all those costs.” You can read Doyle’s article here.

Forfeiture Case

Welk was at it again this morning in the Assorted Firearms, Motorcycles and Other Personal Property case before Judge Carter in the Federal Courthouse in Santa Ana. The theory of that case, simply stated, is that Welk may steal the personal belongings of innocent and uncharged citizens if they happen to belong to the Mongols Motorcycle Club or if they know or are related to someone who is a Mongol.

Last May 16, Carter told all the attorneys involved in the case to settle it before today but it remains on the docket.

There have been a flurry of filings leading up to this trial including “the Declaration of AUSA Steven R. Welk in support of the government’s request.” Apparently Welk knows so many state secrets about the undercover investigation of and the operation of the Mongols Motorcycle Club that ATF agents would have no choice but to put Welk on a motorcycle and shoot him if he let the American people know what he knows.

There were also filings by former Mongol indictee Alfonso Solis. Solis spent 14 months in jail on a variety of trumped-up charges related to him riding with the Mongols.

He prevailed in his case by firing his lawyer and using the money to hire a private detective to reinvestigate the charges against him. One by one the accusations against Solis crumbled like sand castles but the government, in this case Chris Brunwin, refused to give up for reasons that might best be understood by a professional psychotherapist. Eventually Solis made a back room deal with Brunwin to plead guilty to possession of about eight grams of marijuana just to end the ordeal.

Solis avoided a felony conviction but Welk kept his “Harley Davidson motorcycle, license number 16S9100,” “$2380.00 in U.S. currency,” Solis’ “Leather vest with club insignia,” “Several personal photographs” and “Miscellaneous personal items.”

Solis wants his property back. So do other Mongols. It has been four years. Welk never learned to play fair. America has fallen into the hands of grown men who never learned to play fair. So the Mongols case continues.


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34 Responses to “The Mongols Case Day 1462”

  1. anon Says:

    First they came for the socialists,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

    Then they came for me,
    and there was no one left to speak for me.

    – attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller

    This website is superficially about motorcycle clubs. It’s why we all come here, for various reasons. This page is, under the surface, about the degradation of modern America and the erosion of individual liberty. This story is yet another example of a terrible trend that most Americans are too blind to see.

    Rebel, thank you for doing what you do. It is important. Too few “journalists” seem to understand the role you are supposed to play in a free society.

  2. big loser 1percenter Says:

    Hey Rebel,

    Hope you’re doing well. Earlier today I looked up Judge Carter’s court calander on the internet. I wanted to see if that October 9th jury trial date was more than just a bluff to get members of the Mongols MC to sign waivers promissing not to sue the governmentin in order to get their bikes back. I am suprised to see that it’s actually happening. Then I was wodering how many people from the Mongols had to take getting their bikes back that far, but I didn’t learn much. What does motion in Limine mean? I get more info here than I can ever get from the cacd.uscourts website. Thank you for the knowledge. I believe knowledge is power; unfortunately some of us have to learn by repetition.

  3. AVAGOVFFV Says:

    Rather than talk about the menace deer population I’ll comment on the abuse of power by the shit bags at the AG and the Glendale ATF. I am blown away that the US government has been able to get away with such theft. Our laws where never intended to be perverted or molested by these general fund ticks.

    Every Club member regardless of patch should be concerned and disgusted by this on going punishment in this case.

    Viva Los Vagos

  4. Rebel Says:

    Dear big loser 1percenter,

    It is really happening. I am trying to get out the door to ride down to Santa Ana right now. Looks like rain. Most of the people who have filed claims have gotten their bikes back but I don’t know what the numbers are. If you look at the docket you can see that getting that number would be many hours of work. A motion in limine is a written request, usually to suppress some testimony and usually at the beginning of a trial. You’re welcome.


  5. Rebel Says:

    Dear anon,

    You’re welcome. I am glad this is important to you. On the “degradation of modern America and the erosion of individual liberty,” yeah. That’s how it looks to me, too. A lot of the trouble is that police and other agents of the court are legally “infallible” like the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra. I understand the idealism in that — he’s a cop so he must be telling the truth. I also think it is the function of a free press in a democracy to watch the police and others with power. The free press, or fourth estate (fourth branch of power) has traditionally done that job in the free, Western societies. However for commercial reasons style has largely replaced content in television news and that more commercial approach has bled into print journalism. It is now harder out there for a reporter than it is for a pimp. All the journalism jobs are disappearing. The City of New Orleans, for example, no longer has a daily paper.

    I wrote a novel about the death of daily journalism in America, by the way. It is about a reporter who ends up as a biker. It is very long. It is called The Working Press. You know, like, if you’re down with the cause and all, feel free to buy a copy. Now I have to try to get to Santa Ana in the drizzle.


  6. Grumbler Says:

    @Rebel – WRT a reporter who ends up as a biker — had a sudden flashback to Birney Jarvis (RIP), a former San Francisco Chronicle reporter, whose cross-country travels on a Harley formed the basis for the television series “Then Came Bronson,” which ran in 1969 and 1970. He got his start in newspapering as a motorcycle messenger for the San Francisco Call-Bulletin, carrying old-time photo plates from crime scenes. He was reputed to have been a charter member and P of the HAMC in SF.

  7. IRISHPUNK Says:

    Looks like Al got his bike back in the hearing yesterday … article in the SGV Tribune this morning.

  8. Snow Says:

    Like so many here I come for the news that no paper gives a shit about and learn so much more than bike related info. The more I learn the less I like about my country and those in charge, fuck the feds as well as the local police is a term I’m using more than ever. We’ve been on a path of lawlessness for a while, only thing it’s those in charge of the laws who are the most guilty. It’s true New Orleans has begun a 4 paper a week format though there are at least 2 locals stepping up to cover the lack of a major daily paper.

  9. Sieg Says:

    It’s not just the Mongols, or the A.O.A., it’s ANYONE the FedBacon decides is threatening, or has deep pockets, or is just good target practice for them. The money spent on the “investigations” is mind-boggling, and the man-hours wasted are truly sad.

    The worst part, aside from the destroyed lives of those directly targeted, is the gradual ACCEPTANCE of the Amerikan SUBJECTS of these paramilitary assault-groups under the command of the Federal Mandarins such as Holder.

    There is no real way around it…if we want to survive, we need to unite. I know damn well there are Patch Holders from most, if not all of the Big Five locked down in Fed Concentration Camps. Any reason they can’t have a political discussion, evern if it’s held via kite n mirror to get things sorted out?

  10. Woodstock Says:

    Birney Jarvis was also the contact that gave Hunter Thompson his intro to the HAMC. He is referred to by name in some passages of Hunter’s HA book and as Preetam Bobo at other times. Interesting person. I emailed Rebel a little after Birney died inquiring about why he didn’t get an obituary here. He didn’t respond and I wasn’t sure if it was me or Birney that was the reason for that(could be either or both). I was curious about the guy so I bought a copy of his book “What Do You Do With A Drunken Sailor”. His honesty was admirable and the book was a decent read but the man had some serious character flaws. Not sure if that was why Rebel passed on mentioning him or not.

  11. Woodstock Says:

    From Hunter Thompson’s HA book: The Hell’s Angels of the sixties are not keenly interested in their origins or spiritual ancestors. “Those guys aren’t around any more,” Barger told me. But some were, although in 1965 it wasn’t easy to locate them. Some were dead, others were in prison and those who’d gone straight were inclined to avoid publicity. One of the few I managed to locate was Preetam Bobo. I found him on a Saturday afternoon in the Sausalito Yacht Harbor, across the Bay from San Francisco, getting his forty-foot sloop in shape for a one-way cruise to the Caribbean. His crew for the trip, he said, would consist of his sixteen-year-old son, two seaworthy Hell’s Angels and his striking blond British girl friend, who was stretched out on the deck in a blue bikini. Preetam is one of only two lifetime members of the Frisco Angels chapter. The other, Frank, retired from the outlaw world after seven years as Frisco president and is now surfing in the South Pacific. Frank is the George Washington of Angeldom; his name is mentioned with reverence, among the other chapters as well as Frisco. “He was the best president we ever had,” they say. “He held us together and he was good for us.” Frank had class, and he set many styles — from the gold earring to the purple-dyed beard to the clip-on nose ring that he wore whenever he had the right audience. All during his reign, from 1955 to ’62, he held a steady job as a respected cameraman, but he needed more action than any job could provide. For this he had the Angels, a vehicle for his humor and fantasies, a sop for any aggressions and an occasional chance to bust out of the workaday murk like some kind of saber-rattling golem and lay at least a small jolt on people he had no other way of reaching. Frank was so completely hip that he went down to Hollywood and bought the blue and yellow striped sweatshirt that Lee Marvin wore in The Wild One. Frank wore it ragged, and not only for runs and parties. When he felt the Angels were being persecuted beyond the norm he would make an appearance in the police chief’s office, wearing his Holllywood sweatshirt and demanding justice. If that didn’t get results, he would go to the American Civil Liberties Union — a step that Oakland’s Barger has flatly ruled out because of its “Communist” implications. Unlike Barger, Frank had a wry sense of humor and a very sophisticated instinct for self-preservation. In seven years at the head of what was the biggest and wildest of all the Hell’s Angels chapters, then and now, he was never arrested and never had an intramural fight. Even the Angels find his record amazing. Preetam had to win his vice-presidency by fighting seven Angels in the space of one week –three in one night — and whipping them all to sore pulps. But that was Bobo’s gig; before the Hell’s Angels came into his life he was one of San Francisco’s more promising middleweight boxers, and it was no feat for him to put down a half dozen unsuspecting tavern brawlers. Later, when he became a karate expert, he happily destroyed a new generation of challengers.

    The Angels considered him a valuable hatchet man. “A punchout artist is good to have around,” said one, “but he has to cool it around his buddies. Some guys get boozed up and just start teeing off on people.”

    Until his departure Bobo was the homed toad of waterfront literary bars. His colleagues were not eager to drink with him, and for good reason. He was not a comfortable man to get drunk with. Once, in a fit of pique, he lashed out with a karate chop and cracked a four-inch-thick marble bench in the Hall of Justice. Even the police were leery of him. He ran a karate school and enjoyed “death battles,” a karate version of the no-limit, bare-knuckle boxing matches of the John L. Sullivan era. It is not necessary for one of the combatants to die, but the fight will continue until one of them can’t stand up, for whatever reason … and if the reason happens to be death, then the prearranged understanding, among both fighters and carefully screened spectators, is that the death is accidental. [2] Unfortunately, Hobo accepted a spur-of-the-moment death challenge from a visiting Jap on a night when a San Francisco society columnist and several of her friends had come to see him about the possibility of an offbeat feature. The result was a nightmare of blood, fierce screaming and panic in the gallery. Nobody was killed, but it was a very crude show, and soon afterward Preetam Bobo’s name was removed from the rolls of licensed karate instructors.

  12. Rebel Says:

    Dear Woodstock,

    I never got your email. I am learning about all this now.


  13. Rebel Says:

    Dear IrishPunk,

    Al Cavazos got his bike back but he didn’t get Doc’s bike or Lil Rubes’ bike. Benjy Leyva got his bike back. I was down in Santa Ana all day chatting with Ciccone, listening to Welk explain how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and so on. The story will run tomorrow. I gotta go workout now. Everytime I am in a room with Welk and Kozlowski for about eight hours I get the urge to go workout. Maybe I’ll go run five or six miles, too.


  14. Woodstock Says:

    Dear Rebel,

    May have been a glitch on my end. I rarely post here though I’ve been reading this site for several years. I thought that I might have inadvertently given offense, if that’s not the case I’m glad, as that was not my intent. I greatly admire and respect your talent as a writer and your dedication to underdogs. I also think I understand your coolness toward gonzo superfreak. He was a prick and a bullshit artist, but as a writer he had his moments. For what it’s worth, you’re better.

    Pistolero Woodstock

  15. Jim666 Says:

    Cool story Woodstock, never read that book, now im intrested,,,

  16. Glenn S. Says:

    AVAGOVFFV said: “Every Club member regardless of patch should be concerned and disgusted by this on going punishment in this case.”

    Every living American should be concerned and disgusted by this. I, for one, am concerned and disgusted that every living American is not.

  17. Paladin Says:


    Birney Matheu Jarvis (Preetam Bobo), a larger-than-life adventurer, died of leukemia at his home in Bay Minette, AL on June 3, 2012 with his wife of 42 years, Joyce, by his side. At various times Jarvis, 82, was a Hell’s Angel, blue water sailor, boxer, karate instructor, journalist, author-and always a raconteur. He was born Dec. 9, 1929 in San Anselmo, CA. School didn’t interest him much and he dropped out in the ninth grade. He got his start in newspapering in 1953 as a motorcycle messenger carrying photographic plates from crime scenes. Jarvis began his career in journalism, at papers in Hollister and Redding,CA before joining the San Francisco Chronicle as a police reporter. Sometimes the call of adventure was so strong that Jarvis would quit the newspaper and sail off to the Caribbean, to Hawaii, or wherever his fancy took him. Because of his reporting ability, however, he would be rehired upon returning to San Francisco a total of four times at the Chronicle. Jarvis was a charter member and vice president of the Frisco Hell’s Angels. At that time the Angels were just a collection of guys who liked to ride bikes, he said. Jarvis was approached by Hunter S. Thompson and agreed to introduce him to his biker buddies. This got Thompson close to the gang in a way no writer before had managed. In Thompson’s book about the Hell’s Angels- Jarvis was the character call “Preetam Bobo”. Jarvis, a sometimes street brawler, moved up to amateur boxing having a 56-1-1 record in the ring as a six-foot four-inch middleweight. He won the California Golden Gloves twice. He later went on to earn a seventh degree black belt in karate. Jarvis’ solo cross-country travels on a Harley formed the basis for the 1969-70. television series “Then Came Bronson”. Although it lasted only one season, it attracted a following that continues to meet in annual conventions. Jarvis was the guest of honor at two where he sold copies of his Caribbean sailing memoir, “What Do You Do With A Drunken Sailor?” In 1987 Jarvis retired from the Chronicle and moved to Orange Beach, AL to be near his wife’s family. He continued to write for several local newspapers – The Onlooker, The Islander, Pensacola News Journal, and The Pelican. Jarvis was a past master of Foley Masonic Lodge. He was a charter member and Flotilla Commander of Coast Guard Auxiliary Flotilla 3-10 in Orange Beach. He is survived by his wife, Joyce Williamson Jarvis, daughters, Marilynn Sebring, Stapleton, AL, Colleen Anderson, Fredericksburg, VA, sons, Eric Jarvis, California, Kevin Jarvis, Midway, GA, thirteen grandchildren, numerous great-grand-children, and two great-great grandchildren. No formal ceremony is planned. After a long and adventurous life, Jarvis could not win his last fight with cancer, but he had certainly fulfilled his motto of “Live life before it’s too late”.

    Long May You Ride,


  18. AVAGOVFFV Says:

    Glenn S.,

    Well said and I agree as well but this abuse should put all Clubs on notice and IMHO the COC needs to step up in these federal cases.

    Viva Los Vagos

  19. Jim666 Says:

    Very true AVAGOVFFV, this shit really needs to stop

  20. Grumbler Says:

    @Woodstock – Whenever I see the word Woodstock it not only brings to mind the famous rock festival, but also of that scrappy yellow bird in the comic strip, Peanuts, who was Snoopy’s best buddy.

    In his early 20’s, Jarvis set forth on a cross-country tour that was the narrative basis of the Then Came Bronson series.

    He rode a hand-painted 1941 Harley 61, stroked to 80 inches, a beast that ate up the miles. It had a 21-inch front wheel and a 19-inch rear wheel and featured the usual, for that era, a suicide clutch and hand shift, along with a jacked up transmission and turned-over brake clevis pin to get more clearance.

    The orange 1-3/4 gallon gas tank sported the image of Kokopeli, the Hopi Indian deity (it became the All Seeing Eye for the series and a trademark for Bronson).

    Jarvis traveled with a sleeping bag and tarpaulin and often slept in fields if a barn was not available or a friendly stranger did not offer shelter. He repaid hospitality with a song or three, accompanying himself on his banjo uke.

  21. Pig Says:

    Glen S. et al –

    I know I’m going to get a ration of shit for saying this but I feel it needs to be said. Try to put the fact that I’m LE on the back burner for a minute and look at this from the context of someone who is honestly trying to help.

    You can’t tell everyone outside the MC world to pound sand up their ass and then expect them to come to your aid when you get bound up; even when it’s the right thing to do and does in fact impact their lives. Nature has laws and one of those laws is that predators single out an animal from the herd and then kill it and eat it. None of the other animals come to its aid. They’re just glad it isn’t them. You guys have separated yourselves from the herd and Law Enforcement knows that if they take you down, with few exceptions, nobody cares.

    Not to make light of your legal and constitutional issues, but in my humble opinion, I think that what is killing you guys most is a PR problem. I think that this thing has gotten far enough out of hand that a toy run and a charitable donation from time to time isn’t cutting it anymore. Your reluctance to interact with the outside world has resulted in the Feds basically running your PR campaign and that means that they are the only ones giving people any information used to base their opinions of you on. In my humble opinion, that’s where you should start.

    I’m not saying that you guys should open the clubhouses for book readings and family days or anything. Nor am I saying that you need to do more hand shaking and baby kissing. But if solid marketing can convince us to walk into a convenience store and happily buy bottles of virtually the same water you get out of your tap at home at over twice the price per gallon of gasoline, maybe it would be worth it to explore what it can do for you.

    To Jim666 and Sieg from the Diological Saloon – For what it’s worth, good luck gents. I hope you find justice.
    Semper Fi

  22. RVN69 Says:

    Unfortunately this continuing persecution of M/C’s and others who have the termidity to stand up to the federal, state, county or city governments. No one is immune just ask the mayor of a small town in Maryland who had his house raided and dog shot by the county police, or the family of the optometrist, we all know how dangerous eye doctors are, who was shot and killed “accidently” during an arrest and service of a search warrant for running a sports gambleing operation. The people were what would be considered “pillars of the community” yet the cops were able to fuck over them without any meaningful consequences.

    Respects to the Mongols Nation.

    “Better to be hated for who I am then loved for who I am not”

  23. Phuquehed Says:

    Again, Pig, you look at it from the *only* view you know and understand how to. No club goes around telling the public tp “pound sand” or anything else for that matter. *Most* people have had little or zero interaction *at all* with *any* clubs, other than the fucked up bullshit on the boob tube.

    We’re also not animals…no club goes around singling out any civilians for a kill to eat…or anything else for that matter.

    It’s called ‘Justice for All’. Remember that? You were supposed to have learned that back in the second grade. You, and those who make the laws and persecute and judge all seem to have forgotten that it’s ‘Blind Justice’, which means it’s *SUPPOSED* to be the same for every single person who’s an American citizen, no matter what they look like, dress like, colr, or if they’re in a club of *any* kind. When groups of people that are *TRUE* criminal ‘gangs’, like those ms13 dickholes and any of the ones that run the black or latino neighborhoods – you know, the ones who do far, far more shooting of others, rapes, drug smuggling/selling, pimping, ad nausea than most M/C’s and *do it without identifying themselves* unlike the M’C’s who wear colors and are there for all to see – get away with more and more than *ANY* M/C has ever done, then you and all those others involved in ‘law’ have failed the American people, because you, and all those other scum keep rationalizing why it’s okay to keep doing so and keep your jobs!

  24. Jim666 Says:

    Pig Says:
    October 11th, 2012 at 11:24 am
    To Jim666 and Sieg from the Diological Saloon – For what it’s worth, good luck gents. I hope you find justice.

    Justice is the means by which established injustices are sanctioned.


    At any rate thanks for your concerne

  25. RLG Says:

    The police are only TOOLS of those in power, who never show their face.

  26. Jim666 Says:

    this probably wouldnt fit in here except for Woodstocks comment on Preetam BoBo link below

  27. Woodstock Says:

    @Grumbler-That fuzzy headed little buzzard is what got me this road name. The wind does a number on long hair.

    @Jim666-Both of those books are worth a read but some of Hunter’s book has been said to be exaggerated bullshit by some of the people that he wrote about. I’ve read that book a number of times over the years and enjoyed it but in a weird way it was a kind of sons of anarchy exploitation of the HA. All they wanted was a keg of beer(free beer bit ‘um again at Altamont a few years later)and some free copies of the book. What they got was the beginning of the amped-up persecution that goes on with all clubs to this day and is being discussed here. My simplistic take on it anyway.

    @Paladin-I would have liked to meet Birney Jarvis. He lived here in LA for quite a few years but our paths never crossed. I was saddened to hear of his passing. Whatever else may be said about him, he grabbed life by the horns and rode the hell out of it.

  28. Rebel Says:

    Dear Jim666,

    Good story.

    Everybody else,

    Click the link.


  29. Jim666 Says:

    @ Woodstock
    About “the beer”
    clip of Skip

  30. Jim666 Says:

    Thank you Rebel

  31. Roy Buchanan Says:

    Jim666, you are the links master. That’s great. There is another book from that era which many may not know. It is titled Freewheelin Frank, as told to hippy poet/writer Michael McClure, a must have if you collect books from the era. It can still be found.

  32. Pig Says:


    I understand that most of you have a problem with Law Enforcement and I get that; so do I. When I catch shit on this site, I know that most of it is because of the asshole power trip fuckers you have had dealings with in the past and some of you, right or wrong, are going to do the very thing that you hate done to you and are going to pigeon hole me in with them. So be it. I made a choice and I stand full in the path of the consequences of that choice. However, just so I can say that I said it at least once…fuck you.

    To clear a few things up, I wasn’t saying that Clubs are animals singling out civilians; I was saying that the government is an animal singling out Clubs.

    You are right that most people don’t have any interaction with Clubs other that TV. and what they see on the news. That was kind of my point.

    I can tell from reading your posts Phuquehed that in a world that seems filled with milk toast men, you are a man with some hard bark on you. I respect that, no matter what you think of me.

    Semper Fi

  33. DAN C. Says:

    If they don’t quit handing out patches at 750.00 bucks a pop to just anyone as they did before these guys will never be without some court case, my god.

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