Return To Lake Winnipesaukee

June 11, 2012

All Posts, News

Laconia Bike Week, the third largest motorcycle rally in the United States, officially kicked off over the weekend. It is also the oldest motorcycle rally in the country.

New Hampshire officially considers this to be the 89th year of the annual run but the event actually began seven years before that. It was not recognized by the forerunner of the American Motorcyclist Association as part of the official Gypsy Tour until 1923. Races began at Daytona, currently the second largest rally, in 1937. Sturgis, the alpha rally, began in 1938.

The event continues to be a vital element of the New Hampshire economy. About 300,000 people are expected to attend this year. And, the rally is beginning to show its age.

Bad Old Days

The New England Gypsy Tour was a mostly sedate gathering for its first 42 years. The clubs that attended were typical AMA clubs and events include a hill climb and a competition for best dressed club. In typical AMA fashion, the criteria by which clubs were determined to be well dressed included “General Appearance” (shirts, caps, breeches, boots and ensemble “alike”), club size, the “safety effect and practicability of the club uniforms”, the “general conduct” of the club, the percentage of members in uniform and the club’s “popularity.” Thrilling competitions like these may partly explain why the rally disappeared in 1964.

Although the real problem may have been that organizers were afraid of what the emerging outlaw motorcycle clubs might do. A week before the rally was scheduled to begin in 1965 New Hampshire passed two new laws aimed at Bike Week tourists. The first allowed police to arrest any biker caught loitering in a group of three or more. The second was intended to punish anyone who started a disturbance with a $1,000 fine and three years in prison. The state ordered 200 National Guardsmen to bivouac near Weirs Beach. The heavy hand did not work. There was a “motorcycle riot” anyway. Rocks were thrown, cars were burned, buildings were vandalized. 100 people were arrested and 60 were injured. The next year the state sent in more National Guardsmen.

The rally almost disappeared in the 1970s. It became a three-day event but hung on through the 1980s and rebounded after the Laconia Motorcycle Week Association convinced local officials to pass a series of laws that made the rally more biker friendly in 1992. By then Harley-Davidson was successfully attracting upscale bikers and the rally evolved to make them happy and safe.

Shiny, Safe Police State

There were a couple of sensationalized incidents after the great and legendary riot but the rally, as it has been for the last 20 years, is geared at prosperous bikers who are expected to pump $200 million into the Granite State economy this week. And, this rally like most rallies provides an excuse for police to push their weight around in the name of safety. There have been so many official police statements this month that Laconia, like Hollister a few years ago, is starting to sound like an event that exists mostly to guarantee overtime for police.

Governor John Lynch issued a statement last week that said in part, “Law enforcement does a great job not only ensuring public safety but making sure people feel welcome to Motorcycle Week as well.”

Chris Adams, Laconia’s Police Chief told The Associated Press that last year arrests during Bike Week were at an “all-time low and that there had been zero fatal motorcycle accidents. “It takes a lot of people to get that number to zero, including the people who attend this event, who are becoming responsible,” Adams told the AP. “If they’ve had too much to drink, they call a taxi or walk. It is a group effort that goes into that low number, and we hope that this year we see it again.”

So be safe. Be extra careful. Don’t run with scissors and have lots of safe and sane fun.


, ,

30 Responses to “Return To Lake Winnipesaukee”

  1. 10guage Says:

    You mis my point completely. I do not want or care for any apology. I just wanted to let you here how I was introduced to “justice”. But you will never get that because you are too busy debating and trying to be right. The really ironic thing about it is, we are close in age and I mis the old days when I would get hog tied and beat, and then beat again in the elevator at county, and then fight again for a bench to sit on, but walk away after 90 days with a misdemeanor on my record. Now the bitches are so scared we get maced, tazered, killed or wind up with 10 felonies facing hard time. Meanwhile the gangs are infesting all of the neighborhoods and there is a traffic cop on every corner.

    Sounds to me like you should have paid closer attention to your daddy and grandpa. They taught you to think for yourself and you become a proud pig. What a disappointment!

    Nine mile skid on a ten mile ride, hot as a pistol but cool inside,

    See Rebel even I have learned to be civil with these cats. I don’t know if that is a good or bad thing.

  2. JIM666 Says:

    Pig go to the domelights site where you,ll find your type,
    This site is for bikers and most of us really dont want your type here as if you couldnt tell by the replys related to your posts, damn im sick of being locked up pulled over ,watching my brothers and family friends and the general public at large being abused by your badge/gun carrieing type. You said in one post that you volenteer to be a ratfuck pig ???? why ?? why would anyone in there rite mind be that inconsiderate of other human,s rites,
    Damn shame ive been away from thenet for a few weeks and when I come back to one of my fav. sites I have to see a fuckin pig here,,,,
    I dont understand how all you pig,s can just keep going to places which come to think of it is anywhere real people are and think you are wanted, if your minds are that shallow, let me put it to you in laymens terms “NOBODY WANTS YOUR TYPES ANYWHERE”
    NOW GO AWAY !!!!!!!, apoligies to the rest here

  3. BadMagic Says:


    The accountability you skip is two fold. First is being accountable that you chose to take the risk of sharing the road with others. The second and biggest, is that you skip right from driving after drinking to killing a family. The MASS MAJORITY of people who have ever driven after drinking have NOT KILLED ANYONE. Statistics don’t support your logic. Someone typically drives after drinking many, many times before they get caught. They also get caught far, far more often then they die, or worse, kill anyone else.

    It is more likely you will be killed by a cop than a drunk driver.

    My family may die. They may be killed by cops. They may be killed by someone who drank, smoked, legally medicated, or by someone perfectly sober. Accepting the risk and being vulnerable to my fellow man creates opportunity to cherish and not take for granted the things I love the most. Creating laws, threatening potential violators, and otherwise concentrating on taking away liberty doesn’t make this world any safer. Not any safer at all. And while not making anything safer is bad enough, it actually makes things more dangerous. If I believe there are no more risks, I no longer watch out for them. Thinking I’ve outlawed risk takes away the opportunity for humility and cherishing those I love. It precludes me from realizing how vulnerable we actually are.

    I’ll take you at your word on your informative statements.

    I’m glad your thinking about your situation in a critical way. There is hope. The simple answer for your conundrum has been answered by your forefathers themselves. You don’t.

    “Anyone that would give up Liberty for Security deserves neither.” -Thomas Jefferson


  4. Pig Says:


    I guess I don’t know what you consider young but I’m pushing 40. I will admit to being a bit of an idealist though.

    I am the first cop in my family that I know of. Since you brought it up though, I don’t really care what my Father or Grandfather thinks of Patchholders or bikers in general. They brought me up to think for myself.

    You are correct. When cops selectively, unjustly and illegally try to fuck you or kill you, whether for profit or personal gain, it is inexcusable and is an unforgiveable offense. I have not, and will not, do any of these things so I’m not asking for or needing forgiveness.

    I cannot speak for most cops because I haven’t met all the cops in the U.S., but I can say that you are wrong about most of the cops I know. Most of the cops I know and work with do think you have the right to exist. Actually, other than one other guy in my department, I’m probably the only one who could even name more than two MC’s. Everyone has heard of HA and some of them (not all) could tell you who our local Outlaw MC is. Believe it or not, you guys aren’t very high up on our “things to watch out for” list.

    10guage, what happened to you when you were 15 sucks. I would say I’m sorry except that I wasn’t there and didn’t do anything. When I was in the Corps, we were deployed to Okinawa for a while. While we were there, there were two Marines and a Navy Corpsman (from a different unit) who kidnapped and forcibly raped a young girl. When I came back home, people spoke to me like they were expecting me to defend those guys! Wrong is wrong man, and if you’re expecting me to give you some excuse or reason why those cops were justified in their actions, you’re barking up the wrong tree.

    As far as the relationship between cops and MC’s and you guys (I am assuming you are a Patchholder) “distancing yourselves from Law Enforcement”, I was speaking in terms of Sun Tzu’s “The Art of War” not blaming MC’s for the chasm between the two groups.

    And while I love the song “Me and Bobby McGee”, I hope Kristofferson was wrong; I hope we can find a way to be free without losing everything. But maybe you and Kris are right; maybe that’s just the idealist coming out in me again.

  5. Pig Says:


    Sorry man and no disrespect intended but…if I had something that I don’t tell my buddies who actually give a shit about me, I sure as hell wouldn’t air that laundry on an internet forum full of a bunch of folks who would just as soon light me on fire than shake my hand.

    If you are the same Junior who signed off on one of the other Posts as being a member of the Marines MC, then you are either a Marine or Corpsman. You see I bought into all that “Every Marine is your Brother” stuff in bootcamp and it lasted through the Fleet and into my civilian life. Maybe someday we will have the opportunity sit down and drink a beer and I will tell you about it. Semper Fi.

  6. Pig Says:


    I’m not too sure what you mean when you say that “To say that someone who has consumed alcohol and drives is analogous to a person shooting at you skips any accountability”. Skips accountability how? I don’t know you but I am going to assume that you have a wife and at least one kid; if not, then apply this to someone you care about. What I’m trying to say is that if I get drunk and kill your wife and/or child on the road, who gives a shit if I’m willing to be held accountable for that action? They’re still dead. Even if you and your brothers get to me and TCOB before the law gets a hold of me, no matter what you do, they’re still dead. No matter what happens to me, YOU are now held accountable for MY actions as well. All that the DUI law does is to try to back that whole scenario up one step and hold a person accountable for their actions, before their actions are allowed to infringe on someone else’s rights. Once again though, I don think that the DUI laws have been twisted and spun into something that they were never intended to be.

    I didn’t join the Sherriff’s Department to deal with the uneasy concept of being at risk to my fellow man’s choices by enforcing “draconian, zero tolerance laws in the name of public safety”.

    I am aware that there are an abundance of checks and balances written into the Constitution that are designed to limit government. I’m also fairly certain that the government knows what they are. It’s just obvious that they don’t give a shit and can be counted on to step over that line in the sand every chance they get. That Edmund Burke saying you wrote is one of my favorites.

    You prediction that I am bound to become a tyrant is the reason it has taken me so long to get back on this. I hate to say it but you have a good point. I am not a tyrant and in fact oppose tyranny in every aspect of my life. However I am not an anarchist either. I believe in our Founding Fathers’ vision (even though what we have now doesn’t even come close to it in my opinion) and they envisioned us as a nation of laws. Laws without some way and someone to enforce them are impotent. Contrary to what seems to be the common belief, we don’t have absolute authority as LE. There are so many things that we have to do or have in place just to pull you over it would blow your mind. There are a ton of things in place to ensure that we are not able to abuse the power given to us by “the people”. The people, however, are the ones who are responsible for enforcing those things set in place to check our authority. The problem comes when they (we) don’t do it. Checks and balances, just like laws, become impotent when not actively managed. So therein lays the conundrum; how does one avoid taking the liberty of another into his keeping which history has shown will inevitably evolve him into a tyrant, yet still support our Founder’s idea of a “Nation of Laws” and the enforcement of those good, constitutional laws? I wish I had an answer. I’m hoping that keeping in touch with folks like the ones who frequent this website will help to keep me humble and grounded. I don’t know.

    I do agree with you marriage analogy. Right on the money.

  7. Austin Says:

    @Bad Magic = Thanks.

    “… If your spouse is unable to communicate their needs, and or is unable to accept someone providing them, then they are their own problem. As much as you care, there is nothing you can do that will help until they learn to care of themselves.”

  8. 10guage Says:


    I can tell from your writing you are young and idealistic…We distance ourselves from pigs because they routinely try and fuck us…OR KILL US…This is inexcusable and can not be forgiven. And if you think the current state of biker pig relations has something to do with, “Us focusing so much time on distancing ourselves from Law Enforcement and not focusing on the similarities” than you really have no fuckin clue. I bet you come from a long line of cops. Ask grandpa pig or daddy pig how he feals about patcholders or bikers for that matter…Most dont believe we have the right to exsist….That is just a fact jack and no amount of kumbia is gonna fix 75+ years of this mindset. I recognize that a civil society needs laws and people to enforce them…unfortunately those laws are used against us SELECTIVELY , UNJUSTLY, ILLEGALLY and many times for profit and personal gain…It has been this way for a long time and it is not our responsibility to fix your fuckups.

    When I was fifteen I was attacked by two pigs for trying to run away from a party spot. I would have gotten away but I was drunk so I tripped and fell face down on the asphalt and hit my head and hurt myself. The fat pig chasing me jumped off a curb onto my back knocking the wind out of me and breaking my ribs.I instinctively elbowed him in the nose and broke it. He and his partner pulled their billy clubs and started beating me. I fought back for my life. I eventually gave up because they would have killed me. They high fived the whole way to juvey. Where I was finally rushed to the hospital only after I was tanked and fought with two gang bangers from the same set that wanted to know, “where the fuck” I was from. The hospital thought I was in a car wreck…literally….FTP

    Freedom is just another word for nothin left to loose,

  9. Junior Says:

    What is the REAL reason you decided to sign up for the academy and become an LEO? I dont wanna hear the reason you tell your buddies who ask on friday nite, tell me the real reason that only you know thats hidden deep inside of you, you know, the one you never share with anyone.

  10. Rambler Says:

    Thank you PIG. Strike & Kill, Air Assault

  11. Pig Says:

    Rambler, that reminds me…HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THE UNITED STATES ARMY!! Here’s to another 237 years of service. Semper Fi!

    Thanks Rambler.

  12. Rambler Says:

    PIG first thank you for your service to your country. I was the high speed low drag 11 bang bang a couple years ago til I was detached to a LRSD for a bit. After reading your post I’m a little saddened really. Give up the badge before it’s too late. The day will come when you will have to make that choice between doing what you know to be right & what is required of you. If just once you cuff a guy & have to say “I don’t want to arrest you but I gotta” it’s too late, you are lost. Some say there are similarities between leo’s and 1%ers. While on the surface that may appear to be but scratch the surface and it changes. Everything about LE is cya. Sound familiar? From the minor interaction I’ve had with clubbers it’s the complete opposite. The clubs are most like what people like you & I were taught is the correct life. I was told as long as I followed 7 values I could always hold my head high. Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage.I searched long & hard for people who shared those values. Almost overwhelmingly the clubbers I’ve been privileged to meet & get to know have lived this way in every aspect of their lives. I can’t say the same about the LEO’s I’ve meet.
    Hell is a world of no love, loyalty, trust or respect. The day may come when you look in the mirror & feel shame for something you had to do. I hope not. you see I found my own personal Hell. My world fell apart & I lost everything. Family, friends, job, even the very will to live. I was saved by a group of guys who had every reason not to trust me or give a shit about me. It wasn’t LE. That’s what Gangland or the OMGIA doesn’t want you to know.

  13. Pig Says:

    Bad Magic, you know what I love about guys like you? If I ask the average Joe on the street whether or not he thinks that people should be able to go get drunk and then jump in their car and drive around, the vast majority of them would, without hesitation, give me a resounding “No”. However if I were to ask them why they believe the way they do on the subject, they would look at me like I just asked them to explain the Theory of Relativity in detail. They don’t have a damn clue why they take that stance. Someone at some time told them that it was bad, and adopting someone else’s opinion is always easier than having to do enough research to come up with your own. Guys like you, Rebel, Junior and a lot of the others on this website don’t have that problem. I know that there are things that we will never agree on but I think that that is the way it’s supposed to be. I may not agree with everything you say but I would fight to the death for your right to say it (I think that’s a quote by someone else but I don’t remember who).

    Maybe that’s why I’m drawn to big black motorcycles and the unfettered flow of uncensored ideas that ride on their backs. Maybe men on motorcycles who aren’t distracted by the plethora of shit that comes with being in a cage learn how to organize their thoughts and have the time to ponder the “whys” of their existence rather than just the “whats”. Maybe the fact that when you’re in the wind, every 2000 lb vehicle with some blue haired old lady flying by at 65 mph could end your very existence, forces a man to strip his life of all the bullshit and concentrate on what’s really important because you may not have time to do it later.

    Bad Magic, I want to respond to your last post but I have some shit to do tonight so it will be tomorrow or sometime during the weekend before I can get to it. If I don’t get back to you before then, to those of you who have procreated, have a happy Father’s Day and keep the rubber side down.

  14. BadMagic Says:


    To answer your question, “How would you prevent that without Pre-crimeing someone?”, I would say you don’t. That is the whole point. To say that someone who has consumed alcohol and drives is analogous to a person shooting at you skips any accountability. So not only does it NOT help, it shows a lack of faith in your fellow man. It minimizes the responsibility a person has for their actions. It gives a false sense of security for both the drinker and non drinker alike. The drinker won’t care about paying attention when they are sober, because they are ‘legal’. The non drinker will be less vigilant because they don’t have a perceived threat any more.

    So you don’t prevent it. How do you deal with the uneasy concept of being at risk to you fellow man’s choices? That is the million dollar question. Some become reserve deputies and enforce draconian, zero tolerance laws in the name of public safety. Some band together in very tight fraternal organizations and accept the risk.

    “the end result is that someone lost their life due to the dumb-assed and irresponsible decisions of someone else” sounds very much like your not willing to accept the risk of allowing someone to make a dumb-assed and irresponsible decision. I got the impression you think that someone who chooses to drink and drive is making a dumb-assed and irresponsible decision. Which in your position would mean you take the liberty of another into your keeping, binding you to become a tyrant.

    There are plenty of checks and balances in our current government that are there for the sole purpose of limiting the tyranny of the government. It is very recognized by the government. They know exactly what needs to be done to circumvent limitations. It is the citizenry who are complacent in allowing the injustices giving power to government. All evil needs is for good men to do nothing.

    I see conflict in your future. I hope you do man up and follow your beliefs instead of your training. Your one of many needed to make the unicorn appear. First step is to stop promoting an “us against them” attitude. Realize that you ARE the citizen. In my opinion, as long as your still involved in LE, you are still a juvenile not yet on your own to stand next to us grown adults.

    Lets put it in another perspective. How do you prevent infidelity in marriage? Do you remove all risk? Do you oppress? Do you declare authority? Do you take away liberty? Do you make threats? Lots of powerful solutions. The real question comes from your internal dialog. Do you want to have confidence that it isn’t going to happen? The only real confidence you can have is in yourself. Have you truly listened well enough to know what your spouse needs, expects, wants, and desires? Can you remember distinctly the things you’ve done to provide those needs? If you can say yes to both of those, I’d say you should be pretty confident that the risk is low. If something does end up happening, then at least you know that you’ve acquired skills in providing for a spouse in a relationship, and have actual experience in situations that gives you the confidence to try again. If your spouse is unable to communicate their needs, and or is unable to accept someone providing them, then they are their own problem. As much as you care, there is nothing you can do that will help until they learn to care of themselves.


  15. Pig Says:

    I’m going to try to lump this all together so this may run a little long. For those of you who give a fuck:

    1) I am a Reserve Sherriff’s Deputy. I have a real job that pays the bills and I do the LE thing a couple times a month. I have been in Law Enforcement for less than a year. Yes the Reserves are real Law Enforcement. We have badges and guns and bullet proof vests and all the authority and accoutrements of the full time officers. The only difference between us and them is that they get paid and we are volunteers. I have been asked if I would be interested in buying drugs for the department because I have “the look”. I turned it down because it seems dishonest to me. I wear my badge on the outside of my uniform when I am on duty for all the world to see. I represent myself as who and what I am to the best of my ability. Which is not to say that I fight fair. I was a Scout Sniper in the USMC and if you (No, not you personally) needed to assume room temperature, you would never hear the report of the rifle before the lights went out. “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” I use the name “Pig” on this site because I have nothing to hide.

    2) I am a free thinker and I will not be told what to think by anyone, be they Sherriff, Outlaw, President or pauper. I love a good debate because it is through the open dialogue of debate that my opinions are either confirmed or shown to be wanting and in need of a change. I know why I believe what I believe but my mind can be changed if you have info that I am not privy to. I mean no disrespect by disagreeing with you but I won’t stand there like a cow being milked either.

    3) I am an honest man and believe that a man is only as good as his word; although like most people in this fallen world I have my moral struggles. I would have a lot more money, a better job, have many more friends, and my life would be infinitely easier if I wasn’t so adamant about doing what I believe is right (not to be confused with what is legal) and insisting that those I call friends do the same. If you catch me contradicting myself or think you’ve caught me in a blatant lie, call me on it. Please.

    I am telling you all this because we will probably never meet face to face and you will probably never learn it otherwise; and because it is the truth. I don’t care whether you believe it or not because that is the beauty of the truth; it is true anyway.

    I wasn’t talking about your assumption that I was a cop. I was talking about your assumption that I live a “safely caged life”. I don’t.

    In no way did I mean to excuse tyrannical law enforcement. I was meaning more along the lines of:

    “I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave.” — H. L. Mencken

    I strive in all situations to do the right thing. If the law doesn’t represent what’s right, then the law is wrong and I believe I would be wrong to enforce it. This is why I am a Reserve and will never go full time. Law Enforcement doesn’t put food on my table and therefore there is no pressure on me to compromise my integrity by turning my back on what is right…Period. I can’t promise you that I won’t fuck up though. I’m sure I will have regrets. Seems I always do.

    On self defense, if you pick up a field mouse it will bite you in defense of its life. My right to defend my life and what is mine was given to me by my Creator and frankly I don’t need a law or piece of paper, to include the Constitution, to give me (or you)permission to do so. Whatever the “law” says, if you try to kill me, I will try to kill you first.

    In some areas I have a blatantly LEO mentality. I think that there is a place and a noble purpose for laws and the enforcement of those laws. If you were honest, so do you. Even the Outlaw clubs have laws and those who enforce those laws. This may not sit well with you but I truly believe that if you guys would stop focusing so much energy on distancing yourselves from Law Enforcement and spend a little more time seeking out the similarities between your group and theirs, I think you would find that knowing how your enemy thinks would give you a huge hammer to swing when defending yourselves against abusive authority. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Hell you may even find out that you don’t have as many enemies as you thought.

    Bad Magic:
    I was simply drawing a parallel between two situations where someone was taking an action that was dangerous to another’s well being. Obviously the scenarios are different. The outcome however is the same. Whether it is my loved one who is killed by a drunk driver, someone who is killed by an individual purposefully aiming a gun at them with the intention of killing them, or you being held 100% responsible for the emotions of a piss scared cop’s emotions through his unjustified use of lethal force, the end result is that someone lost their life due to the dumb-assed and irresponsible decisions of someone else. My question stands; how would you prevent that without Pre-crimeing” someone?

    I didn’t say that anyone has the right to have all risk removed from their life. I don’t believe that.

    I didn’t say that anyone who has consumed alcohol is not able to be accountable nor did present myself as an advocate for zero tolerance laws.

    As to my opinion of lethal force, see above.

    I agree with everything you said starting with “I see gov. and LE analogous to parents and older siblings.” And ending with “Who actively take part in empowering the growing children into becoming equally, if not more productive.” Although I think that expecting Government to recognize its limitations is like wishing for a unicorn for your birthday. It has never happened in the history of governments and I don’t expect it to happen in the foreseeable future.

  16. jrnr Says:

    BadMagic Says:

    The thing that scares me the most, is that when a cop, no wait, I mean PIG shows up, I am now 100% responsible for their emotions. And by LETHAL force!”.

    Absolutely correct! Just ask the families and friends of James Hicks, Derek Hale, Russell Doza and the countless other men, women and children either murdered or terrorized by pigs or the alphabet soup pricks. It’s not a level playing field. There is one set of rules for us, and different rules for pigs. “To Protect and Serve”, what a fucking crock of shit. Save your LE perspective for some other forum.


  17. BadMagic Says:


    Lets take that shooting example you gave. From what you’ve said, I assume you think driving with alcohol in you system is analogous to purposefully aiming a gun at someone with the intention of killing them. See where you jumped the shark?

    Every time your going to operate a machine, be it a biker on a 400lb motorcycle, or a “truck driver hopped up on crank”, you need to take all conditions into account and proceed accordingly. You give accolades for accountability and yet bypass the whole process with the blanket analogy that anyone who has consumed alcohol is somehow no longer able to be accountable because knowingly choosing to proceed is the same thing as intentionally trying to shoot somebody. WTF?

    By the same token, if I were to have a drink while in possession of my gun, I’ve violated your right not to have any risks in life.

    The latest craze of the day is distracted driving. I suppose you think someone that is distracted and driving also violates your right not to have any risks in life.

    The exception to the rules of course are cops. They want all the credit for taking risks, yet hold everyone else accountable for their actions.

    You believe anyone who consumes alcohol and chooses to operate a vehicle, or otherwise continue in their personal business, has somehow shown such a monumental lapse in judgment that the threat is analogous to someone intentionally shooting you to kill. I know you’ve been well trained on justifying lethal force. That doesn’t make it conducive to promoting an environment of personal responsibility. It is a double standard. That is where the phrase, “Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” comes from.

    Lethal force, draconian zero tolerance laws, and most capitol punishment as a whole are a show of absolute power. That makes them corrupt, ABSOLUTELY. Corrupt with the best intentions, maybe. Corrupt none the less. I see gov. and LE analogous to parents and older siblings. As parents, the gov. needs to take responsibility for providing guidance and wisdom to its citizens with the intention of empowering them to be prosperous. A parent needs to teach their kids critical thinking. A child needs to know they are expected to become (with the right guidance and wisdom) responsible adults who no longer rely on their parents. Self reliant. The gov. has a responsibility to recognize its limitations. The fully grown citizen should end up one who is no longer at the mercy of the gov. They are now the ones in charge and make the payments to the nursing home. LE as the older sibling(s) have a responsibility also to help guide, protect, and make themselves available when the citizen needs help without going all the way to the gov. They are there with the understanding that their elevated place in the family structure is from experience and investment. Not divine intervention. The older sibling should know better than to use their position to keep the younger citizen down. It shouldn’t be about taking advantage. The sibling needs to empower their brother or sister to be an equally powerful peer. In this perfect scenario the child ends up becoming an adult, at the top of the food chain along side their siblings, who equally share in taking care of their elderly parents. Who as role models treat each other with mutual respect. Who actively take part in empowering the growing children into becoming equally, if not more productive.

    Since you addressed the “cop-bashing” comments by asking what ^B^B^B means, they are supposed to be control codes that represent the backspace key. It is a way to relay the action of typing as I’m typing instead of just the ending result. Would be the same as if I were speaking and said, “I’ve grown a lot as a man. I’ve learned through years of investing in personal relationships, soul searching, counseling, and studying self help ideologies that I am not responsible for other peoples emotions. And they are not responsible for mine. The thing that scares me the most, is that when a cop, no wait, I mean PIG shows up, I am now 100% responsible for their emotions. And by LETHAL force!”.

    Rambler hit the nail on the head. You KNOW judging people with zero tolerance is legal. You KNOW it isn’t right. Unfortunately, like most cops that stay employed, the training will overcome conscience.


  18. Tooj Says:

    Times change. Indiana recently passed an interesting law that enforcement is, I fear, going to use as yet another reason to shoot first, ask later.

  19. Rambler Says:

    I got chills reading your last post PIG. The last couple sentences are scary to read. I don’t know if it was your intention to, but you almost excused tyrannical law enforcement. While it is always the responsibility of citizens to prevent an attack on liberties, is it not also the responsibility of the “sheepdogs” to make sure they don’t become the wolves. Maybe you are trying to fix things from the inside. I don’t know you so I’m not qualified to make that supposition. You seem like a decent enough sort from some of your posts, I just wonder if there hasn’t been a subtle creeping in of the typical LEO mentality. After all we are all criminals some just haven’t been caught yet right. Curiosity makes me ask when it comes time to choose between what is right & what is legal which way do you go? You can spare me the “totality of the circumstances” speech I’ve heard it before haha. I mean you as a man do you choose legal or right. Ultimately that’s what the discussion boils down to. i.e. In some countries you can be punished for protecting yourself. Self-defense became illegal but it’s still your right.

  20. Junior Says:

    No, Im not afraid to make an assumption or two, especially when you frequent a place like this with a big name tag that reads “PIG”.

    I also wish more folks would “wake up”, change their apathetic ways and participate in self governance, but it probably wont happen in my lifetime, especially when govt invites so many to suck on the govt teat. I see the problem as govt getting to big and funding huge socialists programs like welfare, govt healthcare etc. Socialism will always create apathetic sheeple.
    Werent many apathetic folks in this country back around the time of the civil war, but now that govts tentacles encroach upon every aspect of peoples lives, people are more comfortable while sucking on the govt teat and being coddled by their local govt socialism services program.

    All need to learn to stand the rule of Law (Constitution) within the confines of the administrative/statutory state.

  21. Pig Says:

    Not afraid to make an assumption or two then just throw ’em out there like you know me are you? Glad to hear that you are well educated in the law and legal system. If you read the writings of our Founding Fathers, that was their intention. Unfortunately the majority of the people are too preoccupied with who is winning American Idol to participate in this experiment in self government. I wish there were more folks like you to keep us “law types” in order. They say ultimate power ultimately corrupts but it is the voluntary ignorance of the sheeple that allows it to happen.

  22. Junior Says:

    “sovereign citizen movement”, dont even know what that is, ive never been part of anything. Your problem is you wanna label me, im not “labelable” im just a guy that got fucked by govt & pigs and started beating them at their own game. Jurisdiction is required for a court to proceed, thats why the first question asked of defendants is an attempt to obtain jurisdiction. I have four victories, i know ive done my home work & done it well.

    I dont come at this from a this is whats right or this is whats wrong perspective, i come at this strictly from a legal and jurisdictional perspective and have the victories in santee,sc and orangeburg co. to prove it, the law types dont even look my way anymore, they even let me go after blowing thru a red light in front of them once.

    See when you law types decide to go around the Constitution, it makes it easy for guys like me that do homework to build a wall that the court cant go thru or around, one black robed individual even adjourned court in the middle my my wall construction project, boyBen Spells was pissed.

    Have a good safely caged life PIG, but id rather live free & dangerous than to live safely caged.

  23. Pig Says:

    I’m afraid that I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you. If you completely disagree with me, then you believe that if I am shooting at you like in the example I gave, you should have to stand there with your hands in your pockets and take it, because until I hit you I really haven’t done anything wrong. And I didn’t say that all risk should be erased from life. I’m just saying your decisions shouldn’t be allowed to have the potential to take away my right to make decisions by say, killing me. If you want to make the personal decision to be a vegetarian, fine. Just don’t order my meal for me at a restaurant.

    We are all forced to be on the public roads from time to time, albeit not by you. Even if you cut out all the extracurricular activities like vacations and such, we still have jobs to get back and forth from, food to go buy to put on the table, etc. The problem is that nobody knows when someone else will be driving around all fucked up so they can’t make the good decision to stay off the road at that time. So unless we can create some kind of “Drunk Driver’s Road Time” which allots a certain timeframe to allow people to drive drunk on the public roads thereby allowing other folks to avoid being on the road during those times, then if you’re driving while intoxicated chances are someone else is forced to be on the road with you at that time.

    I’m glad to hear you are willing to be accountable for your own actions. You are part of a rare breed indeed. So tell me this then, how do we prevent one person’s actions from leaking over onto others? I hope that you would agree that rather than wait until some truck driver hopped up on crank plows his rig through a pack of you and your Brothers, it would be much better to prevent it from ever happening. How would you do it without “pre-crimeing” someone?

    Hope you’ll forgive me for not addressing all the witty cop-bashing comments, but I have to ask, what the hell is “^B^B^B”?

  24. BadMagic Says:


    Your logic is off. Let me show you.

    “The TRUTH is, FORCING an INNOCENT person into harm’s way AGAINST THEIR WILL is wrong and should be illegal. I said “No victim, no crime” but you don’t have to have an actual physical injury to be the victim of someone else’s actions. I know you understand and aren’t against the concept.”

    I understand what you did, do you? I am COMPLETELY against the concept.

    So, by this standard, even being around another human should be illegal. I can’t think of anything more dangerous than another human who thinks for themselves. Well, maybe a cop ^B^B^B Pig who holds citizens responsible for their (the cop’s) emotions by lethal force…

    It isn’t the being ~at risk~ that is the problem. It is a lack of responsibility. There are plenty of people I would rather ride with stinkin’ drunk than others totally sober. I think it is funny how people choose to twist things around to suite their argument.

    I don’t force anyone to be on the road with me. I don’t force anyone to drive in a cage, toward each other with a combined speed of over 100mph, narrowly avoiding a collision by mere feet.

    Driving, being on the road, or flat being human is risky. It is this blame game that, by even dignifying it with a conversation, somehow avoids responsibility.

    Laws shouldn’t be used to oppress citizens that appose government and are responsible for themselves. They are to be used to help people who don’t want to be responsible. Help != hurt.

    I would go so far as to say it is much, much safer to ride with me drunk than completely sober and legal. I know my limits. I’m willing to answer for my behavior / choices. Don’t pre-crime me with some right you think you have not to have any risk in this life.

    More people die from perceived threats than actual danger.


  25. Pig Says:

    Corpus Delecti? Extra constitutional jurisdiction? Wow, thanks for all the big words. Someday I’ll get around to looking them up. You sound like you’re familiar with the Sovereign Citizen movements. How about a little common sense here? The TRUTH is, FORCING an INNOCENT person into harm’s way AGAINST THEIR WILL is wrong and should be illegal. I said “No victim, no crime” but you don’t have to have an actual physical injury to be the victim of someone else’s actions. I know you understand and aren’t against the concept. There are plenty of actions in the biker community that don’t necessarily result in injury to another party but which still carry pretty stiff consequences for carrying out those actions. And common sense dictates that there should be. If you are shooting at me but prove to be a piss poor shot and keep missing, I shouldn’t have to wait until I get hit before I can take actions to stop you. Common sense, right?

    I do agree that DUI laws, like most laws created by C.S. Lewis’s “omnipotent moral busy bodies” to keep the rest of us “safe”, go WAY too far and have been spun and manipulated into something that they were never intended to be. I have a good friend who left the bar and realized he was too drunk to drive so he sacked out in his car in the parking lot. Cops found him and he was convicted of his 2nd DUI. His fucking keys were still in his pocket! What a crock of horseshit! The DUI Statutes were not intended to criminalize someone who is responsible enough to sleep it off before getting on the road. Blatant abuse of authority!

  26. Junior Says:

    You/said you dont believe in the victimless crime, but then went on to explain that you believe that putting other people in danger (not actually harming someone) is a crime. Who is the injured party, or as you law types call it, the Corpus Delecti if I drive drunk or speed or run a red light but actually harm noone in the process? The TRUTH is that there is no injured party, and when there is no injured party, there is no “victim” and therefore no crime. Driving drunk, speeding and running red lights are statutory infractions, not criminal offenses. Constitutionally, there is only one criminal jurisdiction and that is one in which an injured party has sworn out a verified complaint. Statutory infractions are simply code infractions which are prosecuted under an extraconstitutional jurisdiction given to the court by the accused when the accused enters into a contract with the court. Most times this extra constitutional jurisdiction requires the consent of the accused which most that are accused all too eagerly give to the “court” when they agree with the “judge” ,or pretender, that they do fully understand the charge against them.

  27. Magnet Says:

    Another Lynch heard from.

  28. Gar Says:

    HAHAHA “Thrilling competitions like these may partly explain why the rally disappeared in 1964.”

  29. Pig Says:

    You know, the problem I have with bullshit laws like the ones mentioned here and the bullshit people who dream them up, is that they take away people’s right to choose their own path in life. I for one don’t believe in the “victimless crime”. If you drink and drive (or ride) you put other folks on the road in danger andthat is unacceptable. Your choices now leak over onto others and that takes their freedoms away. However, if you want to sit around a campfire at a rally and smoke a joint with your Brothers, eat all the potato chips, tell some slightly embellished road stories, and raise a little hell…who gets hurt? Nobody. No victim, no crime. Law makers (unfortunately backed by most Law Enforcement) waste way too much time and money trying to protect me from myself. Helmet laws and seat belt laws, telling me what I can and can’t drink or smoke or snort for that matter. Our Founding Fathers would be fucking livid if they could see what our government has done to the land they gave everything for! Laws allowing cops to arrest any biker “loitering” in groups of three or more!? What the hell do they think “…shall make no laws respecting…the right of the people to peaceably assemble” means? No way I would enforce that law. Fuck that.

  30. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    And their state motto is still “Live Free or Die”.

    YYZ Skinhead

Leave a Reply