Iron Order Stabbing

Mon, Dec 12, 2011

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Iron Order Stabbing

A week ago, a Hells Angel Motorcycle Club patch holder named William “Spook” Sosebee was convicted of armed robbery, kidnapping, possession of a knife during a violent crime and first-degree assault and battery for stabbing a member of another motorcycle club. The victim is named Jim Moye and this happened in a bar in Rock Hill, South Carolina. Rock Hill is about 20 miles south Charlotte, North Carolina.

A member of the Red Devils Motorcycle Club named Timothy David Hill was found not guilty of similar charges. Sosebee was sentenced to 10 years in prison without the possibility of parole.

Moye obviously wandered into the wrong bar. It was a place called Wall Bangers and it is popular with Hells Angels and friends of that club. According to official documents, Sosebee walked over Moye, hit him in the head with the butt of a Bowie knife and told him to take off his cut. When Moye refused Sosebee stabbed Moye in the stomach. None of the men involved in the altercation are exactly juvenile delinquents. Sosebee and Moye are both 58. Hill is 45.

Moye refused to implicate Sosebee. He told police “it was a motorcycle thing.” Witnesses in the bar fingered Sosebee and Hill to police.

Iron Order

This particular patch pulling is noteworthy because Moye is a member of the Iron Order Motorcycle Club. The Iron Order was founded in Kentucky in 2004 and has chapters in 42 states. The club wears a black-on-white three piece patch, accepts sworn peace officers as members and has developed a reputation as a cop club.

In an interview in 2010, the Los Angeles chapter President said, “Yes we do wear a three piece patch and our colors are black on white. The reason for our colors dates back to the start of the Iron Order. When the original eight members kicked around the idea of colors, and after trying to follow protocol with the existing MCs, the decision was made that the center patch, the Jughead (skull) only looked the best in black and white. So black on white it was. We are in every sense a traditional MC and follow all traditional protocols. We ride and we party and take care of our brothers. In fact, our brothers are put before our personal needs. We wear a California bottom rocker, as does each state’s chapter, as well as chapters outside the US. This only signifies the state we are from.”

The spokesman denied that any members of his chapter were police. “However, for future reference, we do not disclose any information about any brothers, period!” The club allows women to ride with them but not to patch. They don’t admit anyone who has ever been convicted of a felony. They do not tolerate marijuana use. They do not require members to own an American motorcycle. They claim to be “the largest independent motorcycle club in the world.” The club seems to exist almost completely apart from other motorcycle clubs but insists “we are a real motorcycle club.”

Something Is Happening Here

Both the Iron Order and the Sons of Anarchy may be pointing toward a new social phenomenon.

Last September, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported, “Authorities say that the soaring popularity of the Sons of Anarchy TV show – the most-watched in FX’s history – could be contributing to a disturbing trend: Weekend warriors, no longer content to simply ride together, are forming small motorcycle clubs and dabbling in the outlaw lifestyle.”

It is debatable whether the Inquirer knows what it is talking about but it is certain that the Harley-Davidson Motor Company has spent the last 30 years turning “the outlaw lifestyle” into a commodity. Sons of Anarchy is part of that commoditization. So is the merchandise, like ersatz colors, that the FX show promotes. And none of this probably disturbs anybody very much unless they work for Gangland or the ATF.

So Let’s Be Philosophical

But the patch pulling in South Carolina opens a Pandora’s box of fundamental questions like where did we come from, who are we and where are we going?

If the Iron Order is a real motorcycle club who is to say that the Sons of Anarchy is not? How long before some tipsy outlaw demands the surrender of the SAMCRO cut some fan bought on eBay? Or, how long before a representative of the show demands that the fan give it up because the cut is not “authorized merchandise?” What is the difference? And, will the television fan give up his “colors?”

Is there strange humor in this? Will it be funny when a couple of television actors put on their costumes and decide to take over a biker bar? Will it be funny when they get stabbed? Will Jax and Clay adhere to the code of biker omerta? And when this happens, will it be a publicity stunt for the television show? Will it be a fake stabbing or a real one? And, will their assailants end up going to prison? And if they do, will it still all be funny then?

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1317 Comments For This Post

  1. common_call Says:

    Very scary thought! On a sorta lighter note, did anybody pass on todays L.A Times to Special Agent Ciccone?

  2. Not Surprised Says:


    I have reason to believe that the original intent of the alleged “patch pulling” began as a rough physical search because I also have reliable information that the IO dude was drunk and disorderly and *someone* (or maybe more than one) went over to check him out and shut him up.

    Some sources claim Moye had a gun and initaially struck the first blow. Some sources report that a blood alcohol test adminstered at the Carolinas Medical Center as part of the initial Police investigation showed that Moye was at least over the legal limt by 200%.

    There has been tension, reported here, in that region between two clubs, one of which does wear black and white= the same colors Moye had on. It was dark, loud and maybe smoky you know? Things happen. Things maybe get misconstrued.

    My point is that IO doesn’t even have a chapter anywhere near Rock Hill and attempts to make this into some overblown inter club rivalry is precisely the tactic our favorite LEO agency does best.

    This just wasn’t the case here. Oh yeah. The “kidnapping” thing came in because Moye testified he repatedly asked to leave. I believe THAT like I believe he “refused to surrender his colors.’ Way he tells it he stood up. He did not.

    Of course, we all know the “patch pulling” thing plays well to the public.

  3. sled tramp Says:

    Well, there sure are a hellava lot of SOA hoodies,soft colors and gawd ferbid,actual patches out there.Every time I see one I want to tear off the SOA shit and give ‘em a “Thavage Vespas from Hades” T-shirt.I have enough trouble being me,why anyone ELSE would want to be me is beyond my understanding.

  4. Philo Says:

    I was in line behind some dude wearing an SoA hoodie the other day. I wanted to say something, but what would you say to someone who wears that shit around? Would he have even understood, or cared? Fucking rubbers.


  5. RVN69 Says:

    ” sled tramp Says:.I have enough trouble being me,why anyone ELSE would want to be me is beyond my understanding.”

    Sled, It’s because the dull boring lives they actually live are worse than anything they can imagine we deal with.

    “Philo Says: Fucking rubbers.”

    Exactly Philo, if the fucking rubbers had worked we wouldn’t be overrun with herds of these no nothing, let me live a pretend life, it’s true because I saw it on TV or the Internet motherfuckers!

    Potius Mors Quam Fordare

  6. Sharkey Says:

    When you wear outlaw patches you better be ready to live outlaw ways. other wise stay as a rc and to business you know. Especially if you are members of a cop club trying to live in outlaw world

  7. skunk Says:


  8. Philo Says:

    @ RVN69:

    Nice one! LOL Not to mention these assholes have destroyed the secondary market for Harley’s. I don’t fucking care if you put five hundred bucks worth of chrome on the god damn thing after you bought it. That doesn’t add five grand to the value. Douche-bags.


  9. Caretaker Says:

    Io has a charter in my state. Ran into one at a gas station/mini mart this summer… I tried to be friendly to him but as soon as I said hi he got real pale and ran away…must have bern sick lol
    Anyway,just got your books ordered so hopefully will be here for xmas.

  10. Glenn S. Says:

    I live in SC and there have always been tensions in Rock Hill. Its damn near a suburb of Charlotte that seeks its own identity. For its size, the city is overrepresented in the penitentiary. Their circuit solicitors (state prosecutors) are known for twisting logic to gain convictions. 3 men were once convicted of murder (not manslaughter or Felony DUI) after the truck they were in hit someone and killed him. The state supreme court later ruled the passengers of the truck were improperly charged since “the truck only had one steering wheel”. A jailhouse lawyer extrordinaire named Ed Ellison successfilly petioned the courts for post-conviction relief in their case (State v. Hall, Hall, and Knotts)

    Generally speaking, SC will not usually charge unless the victim initially agrees to cooperate. Or maybe things have changed since my times.

  11. Rebel Says:

    Dear Not Surprised,

    First of all, Sosebee obviously got jobbed. In at least some jurisdictions, this would have been an assault with a deadly weapon charge that would have been pleaded down to felony assault.

    Second, I am sure that I don’t know about half the story. I think you have probably filled in some of the blanks.

    Finally, since it is a slow news month, I thought I would try to raise the subject of the Iron Order MC. This club just popped out of nowhere on me a couple of years ago. They sure sound like a cop club to me but I have been told by members of that club they they are not. I am not sure where they fit into the map.

    But if they are getting into confrontations with Angels in suburban Charlotte it is time for me to say something about them.


  12. Rebel Says:

    Dear common_call,

    Not that Ciccone doesn’t know who everybody in that photo is already, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that in several Southern California police stations that photo of well respected Mongols is now at the time of a pyramid of photos and index cards thumbtacked to a bulletin board.

    As far as Ciccone goes goes, I am sure that the LA Times is now being “monitored” as a “gang” publication.


  13. 10Gauge Says:

    Absolutely they are a cop club…and it is written in their by-laws that they are not to associate in any manner with any “outlaw” clubs. They also acknowledge that they do not recognize or follow any protocol except their own. So they are a “traditional mc” out on an island of myopia….kind of like being a legend in one own’s mind….Unfortunately for them, the real world does not work that way.

  14. not surpised Says:


    As to the IO being or not being a “cop club”,I would say it is a matter of semantics. They do wear a three piece patch with state (or maybe even regional) rockers, but they neither identify themselves as 1% or a LEO club DESPITE stating that cops do ride with the club….

  15. Caretaker Says:

    If you haven’t already,check out Might help answer a few questions…


  16. Annonymous Says:

    According to the IO themselves, they were started by a Secret Service Agent and an ATF Agent. A Google search shows that they have politicians and police as members.

    Or, watch Bob Sagat’s show “Strange Days” where he rode with the IO.

    In Oregon, the IO approached a small family club and told them point blank that there would not be another club in their town. A few days later, the same IO members said the same thing, but this time in their uniforms, they are cops.

    The reason they get away with wearing state bottom rockers is because they are cops.

  17. college professor/biker Says:


    you wrote: “Sons of Anarchy is part of that commoditization. So is the merchandise, like ersatz colors, that the FX show promotes. And none of this probably disturbs anybody very much unless they work for Gangland or the ATF.”

    Actually, those of us in MCs are taking notice of this and disturbed by it. It has become a real problem for all of the MCs out there. I have personally watched a few of the dominant clubs in certain states pull SOA cuts off of weekend warriors/RUBs… we are constantly dealing with groups of 5 guys starting new clubs because they want to be part of the “Original 5″… like that is a magic number for forming a club… refusal to believe that there are a set of unwritten rules in the MC world is to set yourself up for failure… the government of course likes to dangle RICO over our heads and try to prevent MCs from shutting down other RCs/MCs/RUB Clubs etc, but like it or not there is a protocol to follow… in one instance, I had just provided some “friendly advice” to 5 douche-bags wearing full SOA cuts complete with a state bottom rocker (at a stoplight where they were busy eyeballing me and acting tough because there were 5 of them next to me… I guess they were measuring me up and checking out my REAL Colors that I earned…one even asked what the NOMAD rocker was all about) when a small pack of the dominant MC pulled up… they relieved the individuals of their vests… (I’m using the word cut not because I believe the SOA patch is real, but because it is understood by many people that read and comment on your site).

    It doesn’t matter if you are a LE club… if you let LE in you change the equation… you can choose to ignore protocol… but that is never a good idea… and those television actors have already put those costumes on and played biker in the real world…

    When you have to tell the world you are a “real MC” you have already proven you are not… I fly free and clear because my club has earned their place in the MC world… no support patch on my cut and you can’t buy one online…

    and here is one more nugget for you: the “real” SOA:

  18. RVN69 Says:

    college professor/biker,
    This SOA group attended a COC in the state where they attempted to establish themselves and were told “NO” by all existing clubs. As of 2010 when I left that area there was no one who had seen them operating.

    Potius Mori Quam Fordare

  19. college professor/biker Says:


    Thanks for the update! I haven’t heard anything further on them… but talk about balls… showing up at a COC…

    (I assume the name RVN69 makes you a veteran..? same here, thank you for your service!)

  20. anon Says:

    Is college professor/biker Bill D? Seems like a likely candidate, especially since I’d assume he’d be pissed at a fake veterans MC. I enjoyed the dissertation and like the area… the comments about the poker run reminded me of visiting an old professor at the Miccosukee Land Coop.

  21. college professor/biker Says:

    anon, not Bill D… but yes I am a 20 year veteran of the army and I do take issue with fake veteran clubs

  22. RVN69 Says:

    college professor/biker,
    USMC 68-72 RVN 69-70. I hate fake vets and fake vet clubs. They, the fake vets SOA club, actually tried to claim that the timing of the show and their “club” appearing during the first season was all coincidence!

    Potius Mori Quam Fordare

  23. DocB Says:

    The IO founding club house was about a mile from mine. When started they were 100% LEO. They claim members from all walks of life. They are not 100% LEO any more in this part of the country. They have had runins
    with a major 1% club here. I’m not an expert on the IO. They ignore us and we don’t associate with them. At least one club in the neighborhood just points at them and laughs when they see them. It’s not yet against the law to laugh. As near as we can tell they are predominently LEO.

    They have spread across the country at an incredible rate because they have used the LEO network like a spider web. Apperently not a hard club to join and prospecting doesn’t seem to take very long considering the speed at which they’ve been standing chapters. They do not belong to the COC in this state. They don’t associate with the traditional clubs in this state. They seem to function in a vaccume.

  24. college professor/biker Says:

    hahahahaha! coincidence…. sure… I actually have friends on the show and who work on the show… they are all good people, the show is just a pain in the ass for real MCs….

  25. anon Says:


    No disrespect intended, and I hope it didn’t come across that way. Dulaney was an obvious guess and is part of a veterans MC. IO and this SOA club both look like jokes to me, even if I’m not a part of the community. SOA is an obvious joke. Looked at IO website, including their FAQ, and reached the same conclusion. Sadly, only the former can pretend they learned everything from a TV male soap opera.

    There are legit vet clubs, so I can’t even begin to understand why anyone would join a fake one if they were actually a vet… they have to know how they feel if there was someone with fake medals or tabs out there pretending to have earned them.

  26. college professor/biker Says:


    no disrespect was taken at all! It didn’t come across that way. I feel the same way, plenty of vet clubs out there, some better than others, but it all really depends on what you are looking for and where you fit in…

  27. puterindabasketchief Says:

    You knowingly let one cop in your club, you are a Cop Club.

    Paraphrasing a comedian I can’t recall: “You can eat pussy your whole life. But, if you suck one dick, you’re a queer.”

  28. DocB Says:

    how much growth would you expect to see in a traditional MC over three months time ?
    OK check out Iron Order MC

    October 2011 – Welcome to our newest chapters Daytona Beach Florida, Accord New York, Orlando Florida, Norman Oklahoma, Mobile Alabama, Newnan Georgia, Gloucester Virginia

    November 2011 – Welcome to our newest chapters Florence Kentucky, Milwaukee Wisconsin, Victorville California, Ridgecrest California, Naples Florida

    December 2011 – Welcome to our newest chapters Brunswick Georgia, Dothan Alabama, Carson City Nevada, Crestview Florida

    My case rests

  29. RVN69 Says:

    Counsler you have done an admirable job in making your case. No legitimate club would expand that fast, but being a cop club makes it easy, got a badge, pick up your patch. I’m sure they drop those patches just as quick when the going gets tough.

    Potius Mors Quam Fordare

  30. Stroker Says:

    Checked my (unauthorized) 2010 map of OMGs put out by the IOMGIA (Int’l Outlaw Motorcycle Gang Investigators Assoc.founded 1974), and found no
    listing for Iron Order in either North or South Carolina, and none in
    Georgia or Oregon. Not surprising really, if they are a cop club, which
    my contacts say they definetly are. But then I didn’t expect to see their name there. This fucking map is put out by LEO affiliates. I e-mailed and asked them why my club was listed as gang, their answer
    was “because some of our members flew the 1% patch.” Of course I
    replied “who decided a 1% patch meant “gang”, and did they even
    know the origin of 1%?” No reply.
    There is an Iron Tribe in No. Car. and an Iron Cross
    MC in Georgia.
    But what we are talking about here is “pop-up” clubs. We see ‘em
    in our area almost every year, and they come to our Confederation seeking admittance. If they have been “blessed”, we let ‘em in, on
    probation for one year (they don’t get a vote in our COC for that
    year), and we wait to see what they do. 80% of ‘em never make it past
    2 years.
    I think it’s our job as long-time patch-holders to continue to give
    new clubs and SOA wannabes the cold shoulder. Now, years ago, some
    of you may remember, the way to discourage new clubs was done a
    little differently. Of course, what I’m about to say, I never personally
    took any part in, and I certainly would never advocate any of the
    activities I’m reporting here.
    Back in the days of lighter fluid, sometimes that liquid got sprayed
    on colors (from behind) and somehow got lit…….or maybe a can of
    spray paint was used to draw a big “O” with a slash thru it, or
    maybe some profanity sprayed over the offending colors….usually
    done in a crowded setting, say a bar or at a run. Now again, I in
    no way condone any of these actions, or the sometimes more violent
    things done to discourage unwanted clubs. I am simply reporting on
    things that have been done, and it is because of the threat of those
    methods, that, until today, you didn’t see many “pop-up” clubs.
    That stuff is part of our past, and our heritage. What we as full-
    patch club members decide to do nowadays to discourage clubs from
    existing, or say visiting where they are not wanted, is being watched
    closely by LEOs and because of that scrutiny, it might be easier
    for clubs like the IO to start up, just waiting for some form of
    “control” from older more established clubs, so they can run crying
    to the law and the courts to take us down.
    Nowadays new tactics are called for. But it was the very real threat
    a club used to defend it’s turf from wannabes and rival clubs, that
    established our “creds” and was part of our culture.
    Watch yourselves brothers and sisters… may be the same old
    ball game, but it’s got new players, and new rules.

    link to IOMGIA:

  31. Tricky Tramp Says:

    Yo Rebel
    Been a strange couple weeks. Looks like we’re back on track.
    do’es that mean the humour can come back to this site. HAW HAW

  32. DocB Says:

    Dear RVN69

    Yeah, I think we all feel the push pull between growing strength and growing numbers


  33. DocB Says:

    Dear Stroker

    Nice post man

  34. Rebel Says:

    Dear Tricky Tramp,

    I am trying to think of something funny to say right this minute.


  35. A biker pulls up to a truck stip Says:

    A biker pulls up to a truck stop and wanders into the diner.

    Above the bar is a sign:
    Hamburgers – $2.00
    Hamburgers with Cheese – $3.00
    Handjobs – $20

    The biker flags down the attractive young barmaid and asks, “are you the lady who gives the handjobs?”

    “Why yes I am” she purrs.

    “Then wash your hands, cause I want a cheese burger.”

  36. AnonymousV Says:

    The lovely Iron Order are a plague in Georgia. They are also in TN and sure didn’t hesitate to call the cops when they saw another club that wears black and white just looking at bikes at the Easy Riders Knoxville show and they got a little worried so out popped the cellphones and the police showed up.

  37. Brutus Says:

    We have only just started to see the Iron Order in our neck of the woods (central Texas). They came on in what came across as an agressive posture, but were careful to not cross any lines some one out of ear shot could pick up on.

    There were some comments made about how they don’t participate in CoC because “we’re not 1%ers”. A few other remarks designed to provoke a reaction were also dropped.

    There was a swarm of about 30 of them all sporting a Texas bottom rocker. They also immediately (without being asked) indicated they were’nt a “cop club”.

    I’m glad I’m older now, or I might have been sucked in. I’m sure it wouldn’t have ended well. They made sure it was only me and one other brother, before starting their act. They split once some more of our brothers started rolling in.

    I would think we could expect some trouble if they were a traditional club, but they smell like LE’s. I figure they’ll just try to draw a reaction so they can put the big blue gang on us (one club at a time). I am sure this won’t be the last encounter we have with them. We also have been getting some of the same swarming, and provocation from the Regulators and Gunslingers two more Texas LE clubs that rock a MC square.

    I think it all stems from a stabbing involving a cop club (Regulators) at Austin’s ROT rally. The Travis county DA refused to press charges and our CoC is putting some pressure on through legal channels.

    Keep an eye out for these delightfull cops coming to a neighborhood near you. I don’t see any good coming from them.


  38. AnonymousV Says:

    Brutus: Damn right. Not long after the easy riders stunt they pulled, the RICO thing went down on the NP and Regionals in that other black and white club. It just another LE stunt so they could another predicate to the BS.

  39. Jarv801 Says:

    I don’t think the biggest threat from IO is law enforcement association. The biggest threat from IO is that it waters down OMC culture. Traditionally OMCs have been a bastion for disenfranchised males. Earning “the patch” required a certain dedication to the lifestyle and to the brothers.

    In my hometown there isn’t big OMC presence. There are some Vagos and some Mongols. There are some Barons. There is a Brother Speed chapter, but I’ve never seen one. For the longest time it was just Sundowners. If you saw a 1%er 10-15 years ago, he was a Sundowner (they don’t wear a three-piece patch but they are a real OMC club in my book — they live the life). (Oh, there are also a shit-ton of Sober Riders and dudes in BACA cuts).

    Last summer IO is all over the place. The club seems to have popped up overnight and seems to outnumber everybody. My guess is that it is pretty easy to earn an IO patch and pretty easy to play your favorite TV show in Iron Order.

    Now, I don’t discount the brotherhood and camaraderie found there. Regardless, the club wants to appear to be an OMC without really being an OMC. This is a problem. If anyone can wear a three-piece patch, than what’s so special about a three-piece patch.

    So, what happens when they become the biggest club in the area? Sure some dude with nothing to lose will try and take a patch, but from the sounds of it, IO is quick with a cell phone. That, and most of the older riders don’t want the trouble of chasing off citizens in MC costumes. If IO sticks to the main roads and the highways – they’ll own the main roads and highways.

  40. Tricky Tramp Says:

    Here’s one from before.

    Leon appears at the pearly gates. Saint Peter asks him what he wants. Leon says he wants to come into heaven. S.P. tells him that only heroes can get into heaven and he’s not on the list.
    So the dialogue goes on:

    Leon “Then I’m coming in”.

    SP ” What have you done that’s so heroic?”

    Leon “Well, I walked into a biker bar and saw this beautiful honey and started to do my thing. Then a biker walked up to me and asked me what I thought I was doing, so I told him to go fuck himself”

    SP “So when was this?”

    Leon “About 15 seconds ago…..”

  41. Rebel Says:

    Dear Tricky Tramp,

    That was pretty good. Tell another one.


  42. pushover Says:

    I dont think its right for those Iron orders queers wear 3 piece patch members of various Outlaw Mc’s have died for that bottom rocker.

  43. "-0" Says:

    @Jarv 801
    If it ever gets that bad, throw them a bone. Help them percieve a threat, let them call the cops. Most of all, make sure when the cops show there is no threat present.. Do it more than once and their fuck buddys, blue gang, will assume they are always crying wolf..Help them paint themselves as cop callers in EVERYONES eyes. After that let the patch pulling begin..

  44. Johnny Says:

    Its time for Iron Order to go international . We wait for you brothers here in the UK.

  45. sled tramp Says:

    Tricky Tramp-
    I don’t believe humor should be posted as a norm but at the request of our host (Just sayin’ so we’re not deluged with jokes),here goes….
    Saint Peter sees a group of people standing outside the gates of heaven,and asks who they are.
    “We’re from Oakland”.
    Hmmmmm…Saint Peter had never had anyone from Oakland in heaven before so he went to find God.After explaining the situation,God said to let them in.A moment later Saint Peter came running back.”God! God! They’re gone!”
    “The people from Oakland?” asked God.
    “No! The Pearly gates!”.

    A biker was riding across a bridge and spotted a beautiful girl standing on the rail.Not wanting to be disrespectful but having been in a dry spell love wise,he putted over.”Excuse me,before you jump, may I have a kiss? You’re an extremely cute young lady”.
    “Hmmmm, well, OK..”
    She jumped down and laid one on him.
    “Wow!” Said the biker,”That was the best kiss I’ve ever had! And you’re beautiful! Why are you jumping?”
    ” Oh that…….well, my parents don’t like me dressing up as a girl…..”
    (It’s a tramp thing ya understand…..)

  46. lets be real Says:

    Maybe the reason for the uproar about the IO isn’t their “fakeness” or “being cops”. Maybe it’s the fact they are those 99%ers who got tired of being dictated to. They threw it in the face of the (and this should piss of some 1%ers) establishment. (In biker terms) They turned out to be the rebels and didn’t ask permission or sit down and discuss chapters in “their” areas. They don’t join the COC because how hypocritical is it to join the COC only if you have permission to. I understand the COC to “defend the rights of all bikers”. If a 99% club with a three piece wants to start up in your area you should love that. It’ll get the actual LE on new leads, detracting from the real law work needing done.

  47. JAMES Says:

    IRON ORDER, is a bunch of shit stirring punks, and although not all are cops were started by cops, ex fed. and a secret service agent (RET), I spoke to one asking why they choose to act like bikers hiding behind the badge, wanted to make me believe he just loved motorcycles and the biking community at the time he was he REGIONAL in TEX.

  48. 10Gauge Says:

    Lets be Real,

    So that’s why you wear three piece cuts just because you don’t like being dictated to?…Because you are the real rebels?…You absolutely don’t get it….Because that is what you want to believe. You want to have your cake and eat it too…Your just greedy that’s all. And if you don’t want to follow the rules and you don’t respect other clubs, except LE clubs (and even some of them have a hostile view of you because you want to pretend not to be LE), then why do you care how we feel about you? Why wear the clone patches? It all should not matter. But no…You want to prattle on about how you guys are the true rebels, and nobody dictates this or that….except for your by-laws which state you are not to support or talk to any member of any real club. And of course the reason is, you know you do not belong to a real club…You know it is a fake version…You view yourselves as some type of “outlaw light” ya know where felonies are ok as long as they come from a scrape protecting a brother. In fact what you are is a near beer version. The can looks the same but what’s inside is watered down, bullshit with no kick. And just like near beer it serves its purpose for some, but everybody else just doesn’t get the point. You either are or you aren’t…. somethings really are black and white. As far as LE on new leads…what are you now in the business of investigating yourselves?

    Just Another Full Contact Biker,

  49. yukon Says:

    The IronOrder says they believe in Quality over Quantity.But this year 2011 alone they have opened up over 55 chapters.Hell they just colored in the state of Idaho on their map.They have only one guy in Idaho.Funny thing is he lives in Idaho and belongs to a washington chapter,or that is he did belong to a washington chapter.But because he lives in Idaho they let him have his own chapter.Pretty damn funny,a chapter of 1.But hey,it looks good on paper when you see another state colored red.It’s all about the money for the leaders not the quality of people they say they want.Figure it out.1500 members at 5.00 a month dues is 7500.00 a month which equals out to 90,000.00 a year just in dues alone.That doesn’t even include the start up money for a new you tell me what they are about….

  50. @nonymous Says:

    Look on their links on their website. All cops clubs. Weird:

  51. Abraham Iker Says:

    Let’s be real,

    I have a question for you.

    Please reply to abrahamiker(at)gmail(dot)com

  52. thump Says:

    I can’t wait till the yuppies, cops and other fucks get tired of their k-mart biker costumes, start buyin boats and pretend to be pirates.

  53. sled tramp Says:

    “I can’t wait till the yuppies, cops and other fucks get tired of their k-mart biker costumes, start buyin boats and pretend to be pirates.”

    That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in a long time…..LMAO

  54. sherides Says:

    I second that.

  55. puterindabasketchief Says:

    10 Gauge:

    Thanks for the insightful and spot-on comments. I admire and respect your point of view here and on the other message board we both frequent.

    The “have your cake and eat it too” rang especially true. I’ve made the same comparison with my Brothers about all these start-up clubs that don’t want to pay their dues. They want to play outlaw biker but don’t have the sand to earn something real.

    The instant gratification generation wants to walk like a duck but cluck like a chicken. They pose badass around town–fucking cheap knock-offs. But when called on the carpet for acting like something they know they could never be, they say they mean no disrespect.

    Their very existence is disrespectful. I’ve got a helluva lot more respect for independents who stay that way–for whatever reason–than those who play patchholder with no tribute or understanding of the history, protocol, sacrifice, and class of real MCs.

    Times have changed. Things can’t always be rectified as blatantly as in the past. And these assclowns hide behind that fact and figure they’ll get over on the life they emulate but then disregard.

    But, if one is smart, they can be rectified.

  56. Shyster Says:

    I have seen Choir Boys and Iron Brotherhood here in L.A. I have seen 2 other cop clubs here but I can’t remember their names. They all wear a 3 piece back patch. Some have a 99% patch on their cut.


  57. IRISHPUNK Says:


    A few years ago I was driving North on the 605 and saw a pack of about 30 bikes up ahead, as I hauled ass to catch up to them and see who it was, I could see they were a 3 piece but didn’t recognize the shape or colors. Turned out be the Blue Knights a LE club, flew the 99% patch, and 3/4 of the guys were full sleeved. From a far you would have never known they were Pigs.

  58. Shyster Says:


    That’s it! That’s one of the 2 I couldn’t recall. I was at Neptune’s Net a couple of Years ago and the Iron Brotherhood was there wearing full 3 piece patches sporting 99% flash. Their broads had property patches on. Their founding member was there as well as he displayed it on his cut. They seemed harmless. They weren’t eye fucking anyone.

    But just to be safe I took video and still photographs. You know … Like they do. ;-)


  59. shovelNY Says:

    here’s an interesting quote from a cop website thread regarding LEO clubs wearing three piece patches:

    “Well I’ll admit that the lawyers would have kittens any way but wouldn’t it be nice if I could say in court that I could see that someone was a criminal cuz his jacket said so, without having some smart *** defense attorney showing me a photo of the Wild Pigs or Choir Boys or whatever and saying “You mean this jacket Officer?”

    I know all about finding PC like some minor vehicle code violation and saying on the stand “HA? OH he was wearing an HA jacket? Well I never noticed. I was so preoccupied with that improperly mounted registration sticker.” I can sling that bull as good as anyone on this site, but I truly hate it when this job forces me to lie. I like the idea of cops always being truthful; wouldn’t it be nice if we could do that and still keep our jobs?”

    here’s a link to the full thread:

  60. Glenn S. Says:

    “I can’t wait till the yuppies, cops and other fucks get tired of their k-mart biker costumes, start buyin boats and pretend to be pirates.”

    Heh heh heh. Good one.

    To play devil’s advocate, the yuppie bikers do serve a couple of purposes: 1) They buy bikes, ride tham about four blocks, then decide they don’t really want to be bikers and sell them, often for a lot less than they’re worth. And its really easy to negotiate an even lower price. 2)Since that “biker” the cop pulls over might be a doctor or a lawyer, the cops have stopped pulling everyone over that rides.

  61. RVN69 Says:

    “I know all about finding PC like some minor vehicle code violation and saying on the stand “HA? OH he was wearing an HA jacket? Well I never noticed. I was so preoccupied with that improperly mounted registration sticker.” I can sling that bull as good as anyone on this site, but I truly hate it when this job forces me to lie. I like the idea of cops always being truthful; wouldn’t it be nice if we could do that and still keep our jobs?”

    We should all copy and laminate this including the link and carry it with us for the next time we need it in court.

    Glenn S. Says:”To play devil’s advocate, the yuppie bikers do serve a couple of purposes: 1) They buy bikes, ride tham about four blocks, then decide they don’t really want to be bikers and sell them, often for a lot less than they’re worth”.

    I know most people think this is a new occurance with what we call yuppies, but in November 1974 I bought a 75 FXE with 50 miles on it from the husband of a government lawyer. She had bought it for him for his birthday, he rode it for a very short time and decided that he didn’t want to ride a Harley. This was my first HD so I remember it very well, got the bike for $2,800 they were selling at the shop for $3,500.

    Potius Mori Quam Fordare

  62. 10Guage Says:


    I appreciate the sentiment. Although I don’t recognize your screen name over there. Drop me a kite over there.

    Strength, Respect, Honor,

  63. sled tramp Says:



  64. rollinnorth Says:

    Well said, Sled!

  65. IRISHPUNK Says:


    That message nails it, and should be read often by some folks to keep it fresh in their minds.

  66. bob Says:

    I’ve seen the afore-mentioned poem in a Joe Teresi-published rag,in an article by the late Rip,who attributed it to a certain club.That reminds me of a certain chant,”Highty Tighty”.Different groups have adopted that chant;I think it must have originated in Airborne training in WWII.We heard it in “Band of Brothers”.The Ole Miss baseball squad uses a watered-down version of it ,and Joe College fraternities yell it out ,too.”Highty tighty,Christ Almighty ,Who the Hell are We?Zim Zam ,Goddamn ATO’s Are We!”

  67. sled tramp Says:

    The poem as I originally received it in scroll form was in red and white.The cadence chant you mentioned was originally a Marine Raider chant.Currently in use by a major club,it was used by Carlson’s Raiders.My dad was a Raider.It was copied by Airborne at Benning and used by my Uncle in the 82nd during WWII.
    Yas just can’t keep good shit down.It goes around and round…

  68. Glenn S. Says:

    I’m neither a member of a motorcycle club nor a prospect (just a semi-reformed old crook that rides, but who knows what the future might bring), but that poem made the hairs stand up on my arms. Respect, Sled Tramp. I can see you’ve earned it.

  69. Gringo Says:

    I’ve seen these dudes in action and I can honestly say that they are excellent sprinters!

  70. Cajun Says:


    Big fan of your site and what you do. Bought two of your books. Finishing Out Bad right now. Truly some scary stuff. This Iron Order thread is interesting. A year ago I stumbled across the threaded discussion linked below while doing research on Iron Order. It’s some interesting dirty laundry, but the most interesting thing is the number of spin off clubs Iron Order has produced. Seems its members create a new club when they get tired of Iron Order. I’ve seen both the Iron Order and the Sons of Armageddon in my neck of the woods. Just like their websites state, there was no protocol. They just put on patches and showed up.
    Please keep up the good work.

  71. Stevo Onepercenter Says:

    @ Johnny-
    Please no, we already have Lex Legio…

  72. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    (scroll down to the bottom post by “full dresser”)

    “The iron order mc has been selected to escort and provide security for the cast and motorcycles of Sons of Anarchy for 2 days, at Sturgis this year, the day before the start of the rally and the first day (Aug 7-8 2011). The cast will be riding with iron order in the local area. This is not to be publicly announced by FX or iron order until a couple weeks before the event.” Wonder if they wore their Mongols-“inspired” cuts with the state bottom rocker?

    YYZ Skinhead

  73. acop Says:

    I am sure I will get flamed…but so be it.

    Three things off the bat, I am a cop, I ride a bike, I am not a member of any club, three piece or otherwise.

    I like biker history I think they are an overlooked part of the cultural landscape and history of post WWII United States, I also think that stereotypes of bikers and clubs abound. Like all stereotypes there are grains of truth, yes there are dickheads who happen to be cops, and there are dickheads who happen to be bikers, both of whom may break the law. I have no time for either.

    I read this blog because it is interesting, I get to hear people’s opinion on MC’s, politics, etc. I also get a healthy dose of unadulterated viewpoints on law enforcement in general. I have thick skin, so I don’t get offended.

    What I find so interesting is that the real outlaw spirit seems to be lost. Let me explain, when I say outlaw I don’t mean criminal, I mean someone who generally chooses to live outside the boundaries of society, live by a different code. Were there COC’s in the 1940’s? Did grown men ask other grown men permission where to ride, and with who? Of course not they were outlaws, who the fuck cares what the AMA said. If they were kicked out of clubs, or races, so be it. They knew what they were doing, a core group of friends riding under one banner, under their own rules, true 1%’ers.

    Flash forward seventy years and what do you have? A hierarchy of clubs, rules who can do what where. They traded the AMA for the COC, the clubs ended right back in the same hole, a bigger group telling a smaller group what to do. I know the role of the COC as peacemakers, but let’s be honest a lot of the beefs stem from people trying to hold onto a piece of an illegal pie. COC members are still calling shots, and setting rules and boundaries.

    If you want to be outlaws, be outlaws, if that means living how you want, go for it, but understand that also means accepting the ramifications of the lifestyle. When the President and VP of a club use that network for criminal activity, well fuck, why wouldn’t cops want to shut down that network. Saying “But we’re a brotherhood, not criminals” just doesn’t matter to law enforcement. You see a club, they see RICO. I’m digressing…

    If there is a LEO club with a three piece patch, who cares, really. If you’re an outlaw you know the difference, and if you’re an outlaw do you care what civilians think, that they will get confused, and mistake IO for you?

    You may care because of what the patch meant for you to get, the shit you went through, the time prospecting, etc. You see the bottom rocker as something to fight over, LEO clubs don’t, they either wear it because they don’t care, or because they can.

    You can call LEO MC’s posers, POS, etc. but it doesn’t matter, if they said they were 1%er’s, than they would be posers pretending to be something they are not. But they’re not doing that, they are simply dressing the way they want to dress, doing their own thing. How can you be a rebel, an outlaw, an individualist, and then get mad when someone wears what you see as your “uniform”.

    Finally and maybe most importantly, is that you, and LEO MC’s can’t have it both ways. If an OMC member breaks the law, he can’t cry when he gets caught, he knows the rules.

    Same for a LEO MC, if you want to wear a three piece and ride a bike you don’t get to play big bad biker with a gun, you’re still a cop in leathers, if you act like a thug, then you are a thug not a cop.

    p.s. if you are a new club who calls yourself “sons of” anything, you’re a douchebag.


  74. RVN69 Says:

    “You may care because of what the patch meant for you to get, the shit you went through, the time prospecting, etc. You see the bottom rocker as something to fight over, LEO clubs don’t, they either wear it because they don’t care, or because they can”

    Well that kinda sums up the whole thing doesn’t it. “Because they can” Master Badge at work again. I wear a 3 pc patch with a bottom rocker because I “EARNED” it, they didn’t and never will.

    FTP, FTF.

    Potius Mori Quam Fordare

  75. sled tramp Says:

    @ ACOP-
    Categorically,that was an intelligently written post with hard to dispute points and very well said.In fact, that was one of the best posts I’ve seen in awhile.Thank you for your post.

  76. Not Suprised Says:


    What you are basically saying is that you and I have the right to walk the streets of Harlem with a KKK hood on

    Of course we do.

    But do you seriously advise it>

  77. RVN69 Says:


    “What I find so interesting is that the real outlaw spirit seems to be lost. Let me explain, when I say outlaw I don’t mean criminal, I mean someone who generally chooses to live outside the boundaries of society, live by a different code. Were there COC’s in the 1940′s? Did grown men ask other grown men permission where to ride, and with who? Of course not they were outlaws, who the fuck cares what the AMA said. If they were kicked out of clubs, or races, so be it. They knew what they were doing, a core group of friends riding under one banner, under their own rules, true 1%’ers”

    You really can’t make that comparison, when the clubs started to form as they are today, their was no organization comparable to the COC’s and the protocols that have come to being are there to prevent clubs who sprout up overnight from causing problems we all have to pay for. Of course making the enforcement of those protocols a federal crime punishable by 20 years in prison has pretty much put a stop to that, and now we have make believe clubs everywhere and we not you will pay the freight.

    “If you want to be outlaws, be outlaws, if that means living how you want, go for it, but understand that also means accepting the ramifications of the lifestyle. When the President and VP of a club use that network for criminal activity, well fuck, why wouldn’t cops want to shut down that network. Saying “But we’re a brotherhood, not criminals” just doesn’t matter to law enforcement. You see a club, they see RICO.”

    Given your logic, should we not expect to see the NYPD,LAPD, Miami PD ect get RICO’ed? Did’nt the criminal organizations within their ranks use their network for their criminal activities? You may not believe this but most criminal activity carried on by members of clubs is their own personal activity, not the clubs. I may know that my brother is doing something illegal, but that does’nt mean I take part in it. The actions of the federal agencies has made such distinctions moot. Did you know that the feds in West VA charged members of the Pagan’s MC with federal racketeering for holding an unlicensed raffle?? Thats right, they used their “network” to further the criminal activity of selling unlicensed raffle tickets! I guess using your logic they should have expected to be charged with federal racketeering because they are an outlaw club.

    “You can call LEO MC’s posers, POS, etc. but it doesn’t matter, if they said they were 1%er’s, than they would be posers pretending to be something they are not. But they’re not doing that, they are simply dressing the way they want to dress, doing their own thing. How can you be a rebel, an outlaw, an individualist, and then get mad when someone wears what you see as your “uniform”

    Cops can dress anyway they like, the problem arises when they create a club, put on a 3pc patch, you know “Not every 3pc patch club is criminal, but every criminal club wears a 3 pc patch” that is from a law enforcement biker investigation guide. Cops who wear a three piece patch do so because they know they can hide behind that badge whenever they fuck up. That is the difference when I fuck up I pay the price, when they fuck up they whip out the badge and all is well. It all comes down to them trying to live my life without paying my dues.

    Honesta Mors Turpi Vita Potior.

  78. Cajun Says:


    I agree with sledtramp. Your post was well written and not inflammatory. I offer something for you to consider. Before it was cool to be in a club or wear a patch and when it was considered an insult to say someone looks like a biker, these guys (traditional clubs) were doing it. They pioneered the lifestyle and paid the price for decades. Those clubs and those guys kept their lifestyle and culture alive through tremendous persecution because they believed in it and because it was who they were. I think most would argue they still do it today. But, with the commercialization of Harley Davidson and the glorification of fiction like Sons of Anarchy, it has now become cool to be in a club, ride a Harley Davidson, dress the part, etc….

    To say groups like Iron Order are more outlaw than the traditional clubs because they do what they want and don’t ask permission to stand up a chapter is taking it all out of context and only looking at a snapshot in time. It’s disrespectful to ignore the price those clubs paid in the past, and continue to pay today, to wear a patch and be recognized as biker and a member of a motorcycle club. You may not agree with the current state of affairs and you may also point to the protocol and etiquette as the antithesis of a true outlaw life, but those things didn’t happen in a vacuum. They happened through years of interaction and there is a reason. It’s been my limited experience most clubs will give new clubs a chance, if they follow the protocol. It’s really no different than a prospect or a hangaround.

    You are a cop and as such should understand the fraternal nature of a motorcycle club. Surely you and your fellow police officers don’t readily accept the new rookie? Surely you wouldn’t bet your life on the skills of someone you just met? You need to know who they are. Aren’t you embarrassed when a local cop assigned to some other department, does something inappropriate? Don’t you get tired of explaining to family and friends why someone you don’t know or have any control over did something? It’s no different with MCs. They just choose to exercise more control over it.

    Finally, I would add Confederations of Clubs also contribute to the political weight of motorcyclist. I’m not saying that’s all they do, but it’s not accurate to say they exist solely to control an area.

  79. Not Surprised Says:

    78 posts by my count and not one Iron Order member/supporter/fan or whatever has bothered to respond………

    Draw your own conclusion.

  80. RVN69 Says:

    Dear ACOP,
    You actually seem a decent sort, do yourself and our host a favor, buy “OutBad” and “AgingRebel, Dispatches from the Motorcycle Outlaw Frontier”. These books may cause you to rethink some of your positions, or not.

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare

  81. Philo Says:

    Meh…God damn it! I hate to say this but I agree for the most part with that cop above. I always thought CoC was bullshit, even when many of my older brothers thought it was greatest thing since sliced bread. Shriners with a patch is what a lot of this bullshit seems to have turned out to be.
    I don’t give a shit about toy runs or “sit-downs” or “politics”. Nothing against those that do, just not my bottle of beer. Drink, fight, fuck, and ride, in varying order, was why I wanted to be a biker.

    Anyways, this dude is mostly right. When some of us decided to break-off and start our own chapter in a city that only had one other large national club, we were endlessly advised to have “sit-downs”, make sure the “politics” were cool. I posted a flier for our open-house at the bar where the other club hung out. On opening day we had a big party and a bunch of their guys showed up. ‘So-in-so is here, wants to talk to you’. Whatever. Dude wanted to know why we had just opened house without ‘consulting’ with them first? Cause I don’t ask people where I can hang out and ride, and people don’t ahve to ask me. Dude laughs. ‘Right on’ he says. Then we got fucked up and had a good BBQ. lol Didn’t mean we were all best buddies, or even hung out much after that, but we never had any bad run-ins with the other guys.

    So the cop kinda hit the nail on the head. If the law dogs want to ride and call themselves a club, I guess all I can say is whatever. The only problem I personally have with that is when they run into trouble wearing their “biker” clothes, they shouldn’t run behind the badge for safety.


  82. KK Says:

    Philo, I don’t know where you live, but , you show up in a 1% bar flying your 3 piece patch on the back of your cut with no collar & you don’t have a support patch or the ok from the local 1% chapter you’re gonna find yourselve(s) with some major problems here.

    Seen many of denim duds think they know what our lifestyle is all about, usually it’s on the weekends. Some patch pulling parties can be comical & ugly too. I am not implying that is you, but when you state:

    ” So-in-so is here, wants to talk to you’. Whatever. Dude wanted to know why we had just opened house without ‘consulting’ with them first? Cause I don’t ask people where I can hang out and ride, and people don’t ahve to ask me ”

    That to me is disrespectfull to not only the local(Diamond) 1% chapter there, but to the entire 1% Club and though that club member laughed you said, I can assure you, you would of had some bad luck following you around daily after that little meeting.

    You wanta be a t-shirt club hang out, ride, drink, share some laughs that’s cool. You cut the collar off, sew a 3 piece patch on the back of that denim and come down the road on your sleds with 6-12 guys thats a statement you better be ready to take on. You will find out real fast what kind of character your “club” has versus a REAL 1% club. Good Luck.

    RVN: I read your post about the Club Member(s) riding the older bikes I just forget what thread it was here man, to many buds & budz over Xmas I guess, but yea B had some old sleds(pans,shovels)rode em hard on long ass runs too, he’s in a halfway house now still coughing up raffle tickets after the gov’t shoved em so far up his ass. Fuckn raffle tickets!!! Happy New Year brotha!

  83. Philo Says:


    I don’t know where you’re from, but where I’m from you can ask other men for permission to do what you want, or you do what you want and be willing to face the (possible) consequences. We were willing and capable, but didn’t come into town acting like hard-cases. We invited them to our party, that was a respectful thing to do. Sucking ass is not respectful. Or maybe it is in some places. I don’t know. I know in my state people have more respect for balls than lips on asses. I can tell you another club moved into that area a year or so after us and went to the big club’s court to get their blessing, or I guess in your book, to be “respectful”. They were fucked with mercilessly, (and rightfully in my opinon.) and in the end closed down shop. To this day, all these years later, the chapter we started is still there and going strong.

    After I quit wearing a patch I was still friends with guys from that other club. Some of their guys were pretty pissed about it, others liked that we got up that morning and decided to wear our balls like big boys to the open house.

    Your comment does kind of illustrate what that cop was describing though. Isn’t kind of contradictory for the ‘rugged individual’ biker to have to go kowtow to another club to be able to ride and have a good time?

    I guess in your state you should be in the big club or stock up on lip gloss. LoL. My state doesn’t work like that. In fact, I can think of only one club out here that’s a “1%” club that even wears a diamond patch anymore. Last I checked none of the other big ‘outlaw’ clubs do.


  84. Philo Says:


  85. rollinnorth Says:

    Philo imitates the Invisible Man?

  86. @nonymous Says:

    I wonder what the conversations w police are when the urine order gets raided. Probably a lot better than the ones my brothers and i have when we get raided on bullshit trumped up charges.

  87. Glenn S. Says:

    I wonder how the cops would react if members of a motorcycle club started wearing blue costumes with badges, and then stopped people going about their business and fined them or locked them up for breaking a rule. Nevermind, I don’t have to wonder. They would arrest them and put them in jail for impersonating them. And they would investigate them for crimes real and imagined with the intent of disbanding them. They would harass their families and friends, trash their houses, and confiscate their property. The media would cheer them on. The same would go for any group of people, or an individual, that decided they want to be cops and could do so by wearing the blue uniforms and pieces of shiny metal pinned to their shirts.

  88. RVN69 Says:

    “Sucking ass is not respectful. Or maybe it is in some places. I don’t know. I know in my state people have more respect for balls than lips on asses”.

    I know in my State following protocol is not considered “sucking ass” You may or may not care that you have just called a whole bunch of serious clubs ass suckers and inflated yourself to someone with balls that clang, true or not.

    “After I quit wearing a patch”

    Yet you still refer to them as your club?

    “I don’t give a shit about toy runs or “sit-downs” or “politics”. Nothing against those that do, just not my bottle of beer. Drink, fight, fuck, and ride, in varying order, was why I wanted to be a biker”

    I don’t care for sit downs or politics either, but I care less for visiting my brothers in the hospital, jail or cemetary when something could have been settled differently.

    “When some of us decided to break-off and start our own chapter in a city that only had one other large national club, we were endlessly advised to have “sit-downs”, make sure the “politics” were cool”

    So you were starting a chapter of an already established club? Who’s advice did you disregard, your own brothers? Establishing a chapter is considerably different than starting a new club, things like that are worked out by the club leadership in advance. Breaking off on your own to start a chapter sounds disrespectful to your own club.

    “I guess in your state you should be in the big club or stock up on lip gloss. LoL. My state doesn’t work like that. In fact, I can think of only one club out here that’s a “1%” club that even wears a diamond patch anymore. Last I checked none of the other big ‘outlaw’ clubs do”.

    Maybe things ARE different “out here” as you state. Maybe it is because the dominate club isn’t that dominate anymore, maybe they have decided that since the cops have changed patch pulling from a simple disturbance or assault to aggrevated assualt with gang enhancement, kidnapping, robbery, and in some cases RICO, that it isn’t worth the jail time to shut down pretenders. Maybe your survival was less a matter of respect and more a matter of legal math. Lastly every 1% club “out here” does wear a 1% patch, prominantly and proudly, and they are “The big outlaw clubs”.

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare

  89. Philo Says:


    To each his own, man.

    ‘The club I was in’, as in the club I was a member of for many years, was an officer for, left standings from, and still maintain very close ties with.

    It was mostly older guys in the club who wanted to get some other clubs permission; the younger guys like me didn’t join a motorcycle club to do that kind of thing. And I wouldn’t say that the other club was overly offended by our actions because recruitment offers became a standard part of most conversations that followed.

    ‘balls that clank’? I wouldn’t call it that. That’s what we thought was the right thing to do. That’s what we did. It worked out fine. End of story. Maybe where you’re from you can’t operate like that. If that’s the case bummer for you, (unless you’re a member of the biggest club in the area.)

    The “dominant” club in my state? Define “dominate”. The biggest? The most dangerous? The wealthiest? The one with the most chapters? I’ll gather from the response to my comment that the dynamics in my state are much different than in others.

    Lastly, I can think of four clubs in my state who are “1%” clubs who no longer, if they ever did, wear that diamond patch. I’m not gonna name drop them, cause it’s not my place to speak for them. You don’t have to believe it, doesn’t really matter to me.

    Happy New Year,


  90. Philo Says:


    “Philo imitates the Invisible Man?”

    If only! I’d spend less time around here and more time around pretty ladies :P

    I had a lot of trouble getting the site to load for me the other day.
    Commenting was pretty kooky for a bit too.

    Happy New Year,


  91. Glenn S. Says:

    I learned something important in the penitentiary, as a young man: Courtesy and respect are what keeps people from killing one another when they otherwise would. You bump into somebody on a tier, you say “excuse me” and a potential enemy becomes a potential friend. Someone bumps into you and says “excuse me”, same thing. You bump into someone obviously weaker than yourself (but not a punk or a rat) and say “excuse me”, you’ve displayed strength, not weakness. You bump into someone and say “excuse me” and he says “gimme your fucking money, white mothafucka”, you leave him there to be taken away on a stretcher later because the courtesy and respect wasn’t returned but was taken as weakness. Common sense that the whole world should know but it doesn’t.

  92. Philo Says:

    I guess different strokes for different folks. Let me ask you this Glenn, did you ask people where it was ok for you to sit? How much of your lunch you could eat? Did you ask permission for when you could you the bathroom of your fellow inmates? If analogies are used, lets use the proper ones.

    If you go to another club to discuss what they think about you setting up shop in their area, you open up the possibility of them saying no. What then? Do you go home with your tail between your legs? Do you do it anyways and risk the possible ramifications? The answers to the last two question depend on a myriad of factors, as most of us who’ve been in that situation know.

    Inviting the “home team” over for the start-up party said, “We’re here, and while we’re here we want to get to know each other.” Not inviting them would have been a calculated disrespect. And lets be honest, “protocol” or not, asking another clubs input on your clubs activities is a submission, not an act of respect. I doubt that the biggest clubs ask one another for permission to open each one of their chapters, and I know out here clubs that have the will and ability to do so, open chapters where they want. Yes, sometimes that leads to serious situations. Sometimes it doesn’t.

    Like anything “respect” is relative to one’s idea of what that means. Following the belief of someone like Rvn69, the most “respectful” bikers would be those in ‘puppet’ clubs, and the very ownership of a Harley would make one a “biker”. I don’t fault anyone for believing that, I just don’t. Simple enough. We can just agree to disagree. No worries.

    Happy New Year,


  93. RVN69 Says:


    ” Following the belief of someone like Rvn69, the most “respectful” bikers would be those in ‘puppet’ clubs, and the very ownership of a Harley would make one a “biker”. I don’t fault anyone for believing that, I just don’t.”

    Neither do I, what you say you did worked out for you, great, if you or any of your brothers had ended up beaten, stabbed or shot because of your actions that’s great too, I don’t know you so I don’t give a shit. No one said that showing respect to another club by advising them you intended to open a chapter was asking permission. While you fail to admit it there is an air of “I’m real, you aren’t” in your statements, you’ve got real balls and all the other clubs nationwide that have chosen to try to prevent unnecessary conflict are either pussies or puppet clubs. But your not in a club anymore so none of this matters.

  94. Rebel Says:

    Dear Philo,

    Maybe I should stay out of this but of course I will not.

    I like the term “preeminent club,” personally. Those clubs usually wear a one percenter patch and if you start a brand new, three-piece patch club you might want to check in with the preeminent club in your town. In Los Angeles, there are actually three pre-eminent clubs. I just wouldn’t start a new club unless I knew what was what.

    In my experience, if you are starting a new chapter of an established club there is usually a certain amount of talking, hugging and beer drinking that needs to take place to ensure that everybody remains good neighbors. Sometimes, this means you take a ride to the pre-eminent club’s clubhouse and you get to know your new neighbors there. I have also been to parties for clubs I never heard of before or, pretty much, since. I think throwing a party is always a fine way to say hello.

    If you are not a pre-eminent club, the pre-eminent club usually tells you some things that you can and cannot do if you wish to remain good neighbors with them. Like maybe, the preeminent club might ask you to refrain from certain kinds of business. Like, if you are riding along and you happen to see a gun, a woman, or a baggie lying on the ground, the preeminent club may ask you to refrain from selling what you have found. You know, because selling those items might be illegal and might have repercussions for everybody. Rather, you should either enjoy what you have found for yourself or else immediately turn it over to the first member or prospect of the preeminent club that you happen to see. Then the preeminent club member or prospect will ensure that your gun, baggie or woman will be properly and safely used or otherwise disposed of. Sometimes, guys in smaller clubs balk at this so there is often a little friction but it does not usually get out of hand.

    Sometimes the preeminent club asks you to wear some kind of support patch. In 1994 or 95, there was almost a very major argument in the northwest between a one percenter club and a very large three-piece patch club that is not a one-percenter club over that very issue. The one percenter club politely backed down.

    Usually, as long as you don’t try to steal some other club’s name or colors and all you want to do is ride, drink, chase women and be free there is no particular problem. Who needs the drama over nothing?

    Robert Frost wrote a beautiful and true line. “Good fences make good neighbors.”

    I am a fan of all the COCs by the way. Because, you know, the name of the site is “The Aging Rebel” not “The Young and Foolish Rebel.” I know that not everybody is going to agree with me. I like Philo and I can see he already does not agree with me on that. I have always been an admirer of JR Reed, if you know who he was. The ATF entrapped him. Koz was part of it. Dobyns was part of it. I believe Ciccone was part of it. One of the original goals of COCs was to ensure that guys who needed a lawyer could afford one.

    My two cents, anyway. Party on.


  95. Philo Says:

    What ever floats your boat Rvn. You’re the only one talking about my balls here bud. And if you think that situation was unique in the world of motorcycle clubs, so be it. I’m not having a biggest dick contest here, just sharing one of my experiences from when I was a patch holder. If you want to take offense to it, so be it. You’re right about one thing though, in the big picture none of this matters, and this conversation is at the top of the ‘doesn’t matter’ list. Hope you and yours have a happy New Year.


  96. Phuquehed Says:

    What I’m gleaning from Philo’s statements/posts is that he’s young and doesn’t seem to like the ways that work just fine and have worked just fine since WWII…those are for ‘old people’ and he doesn’t have to do a damned thing he doesn’t want to. Good for him, but I’m with RVN69 on this…if he or his buddies get fucked up at some point in time because they didn’t think they needed to follow well established rules, I’ll laugh my ass off before I’d ever shed a tear for them.

  97. Philo Says:


    I wish your comment had posted before I had finished writing mine. I think you’re pretty spot on in your description of how things in that situation go down. That was the exact intent of inviting them to our opening day party, and in the end things pretty much worked out exactly as you described.

    I also think you’re correct in using the term “preeminent” club”. And I agree “most” “1%” clubs wear that patch. Last I knew, (and I could be wrong on this cause it’s been awhile since I talked to a lot of these guys) but the Highwaymen and the Devils Diciples don’t wear a “1%”. I do not believe the Scorpions or the Avengers do either. I would not advise telling any of them they’re not real “1%” bikers however.

    Anyways, I’m really not tryin to get into a big pissin match with one of the regulars here. Rvn, we’ll agree to disagree, cool? No hard feelings.

    Happy New Year,


  98. Philo Says:


    You miss the irony in bikers harping the importance of “following well established rules”? I think that’s the point that cop above was trying to make..

    Happy New Year,


  99. Docb Says:

    After all the trolling that’s been running on some of these threads lately it’s refreshing to watch two men agree to disagree and do it with some respect.

    There are a lot of different ways to come to town. All politics are local and what works in one town between clubs might not work somewhere else. IMHO both posters have made some valid points. In the end you have to stand up to get counted.

    Have a good new year all

  100. RVN69 Says:

    It’s cool, I find it mildly ironic that two people who probably have more in common with each other than not were disagreeing over something a cop said.

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare

  101. Philo Says:


    Heh, I hadn’t even thought of that. Fucking cops. Even when they’re tryin to be cool they cause a bunch of shit :P


  102. sled tramp Says:

    Hoping 2012 will be much better than 2011 was for you.
    Off to party hearty with my brothers
    Watch out for cages (of all sorts).
    Enjoy your weekend.
    sled tramp

  103. acop Says:

    Interesting discussion. I am curious what you think if a one piece club acts like outlaws, are they an outlaw club? Should they check in with the larger OMC clubs in the area before starting out? They don’t wear a diamond, no bottom rocker, but maybe act exactly like an OMC, should they be treated as one.

    Conversely what if a club with a three piece patch is not a 1% club, don’t act like outlaws, don’t claim to be, and wear an AMA patch. If a one piece can be treated like a three piece, can’t the opposite hold true, and a club with a three piece just be treated like any AMA club?

    And yes I am aware there are one piece OMC’s, and three piece (established, accepted by OMC’s) non-OMC clubs.

  104. Glenn S. Says:

    No I did not ask where I could sit. I sat where people who looked, spoke, and acted like me sat. I did not ask where I could piss or shit either, but had the courtesy not to just walk in someone else’s cell and take a shit there. Upon arrival, I made it my business to learn the customs with the belief that when in Rome, one does as the Romans. As a result, I thrived there to the extent possible under the circumstances and made lifelong friends. I walked in a man and left the same way. The old saying, “don’t start no shit, don’t take no shit”. Now, if I had WANTED to start some shit with somebody, I might have rolled up in their cell and took a shit on their bunk. If I were a member of a motorcycle club that had functioned in some area for years or decades, and some group of bikers or Harley riders decided to wear the same bottom rocker that I and my brothers had earned, I’d probably feel like some motherfucker had just barged into my cell, squatted, and dropped a few turds on my floor. Then I’d have to react accordingly, or the next thing you know, that same motherfucker and a whole bunch of other motherfuckers would not only be shitting on my floor, but taking my stuff on their way out.

  105. Glenn S. Says:

    Happy New Year, y’all. I’m enjoying having my morning coffee with y’all, these days.

  106. Philo Says:

    Heh Heh Well thankfully no one actually shit on anyone’s bed, or floor for that matter. Even shit-talk was kept to a relative minimum. Three things I’ve always tried to keep in my head regarding personal and professional matters. Following them had never failed me, ignoring them has cost me more than a few opportunities.

    Nothing Succeeds Like Success

    Fortune Favors The Bold

    When In Doubt, Break The Beer Out.

    Alright, so that last one has prolly caused as many problems as it has solved, but it sounds good in theory. :P

    Happy New Year


  107. observer Says:

    Glenn S.:
    Yours is always an understandably powerful perspective in whatever threads you participate. Plus, you’re darn eloquent (as are, however, probably half the people here, which contributes to this site’s considerable literary heft). Your survived experience(s) add real gravity to your views and I for one, and I’m sure others, appreciate whatever it is you have to say about anything. It’s strange to consider, and you’ve no doubt given it some thought, but your incarceration may have been a blessing of sorts. You were strong enough to have survived, and then reap the best of what it all had to offer. Lesser men wouldn’t have been able to pay the price for what is now yours to keep. I’m sure there’s plenty you could live without (maybe 99%?) but there’s some real gold in what you took away from all that. Glad you made it back.

  108. Glenn S. Says:

    Observer, I just wish I had found motorcycles before I found hard dope. That’s the #1 regret of my life (Nos. 2 and 3 being not going to college when I was age appropriate and turning my back on a certain family member while they were still alive because they wouldn’t shut up about Jesus. And hitting my first wife, who ODed and died in ’98. That’a a biggie).

    What polite society (mainstream society, law abiding society, the citizenry) doesn’t understand is that men are not good or evil, but simply men. They try to label everybody: Bikers don’t look like “us” so they must be bad. Politicians, corporate bigwigs, cops do look like “us” so they must be good. Society has some funny ideas about redemption and fresh starts as well. If a man rats out his friends, he is somehow deserving of a second chance, but if he stays loyal, he deserves punishment in the harshest manner (and which one would you want living next door to you?). The laws continue to accumulate, the punishments grow harsher, the degree of proof needed for a conviction in this free country have gotten to the point that I am concerned that, just in going about day-to-day life, I could accidentally end up with a life sentence while the citizenry cheers my persecutors.

    Some men, deemed misfits, rebels, rejects, criminals, and heroes, have found that the simple act of riding a motorcycle allows us some peace and perspective. Some have banded together in motorcycle clubs that, against all odds, have thrived and grown. Polite society deems them offensive and has tasked its enforcement agencies to shut them down and incarcerate their members. Yet the best of these clubs continue to thrive. They deserve respect. Then there are those who copy them, and act as though the respect others have earned is theirs just because they sewed patches on their backs. Some of these people are cops, who think their badges give them license to do as they please, secure in the knowledge that the citizenry will take their side. They deserve contempt.

    Personally, I prefer a society where a man is judged by his deeds, his loyalty, and his strength, rather than one where a man is measured by his willingness to obey rules and by who his daddy is and by the degree of his conformity.

    Okay, my coffee is finished. Off my soapbox, on my bike. Happy New Year, y’all. They say that what you do on New Year is what you’ll do all year, and I know what I’ll be doing!

  109. sled tramp Says:

    “They say that what you do on New Year is what you’ll do all year”
    Woe to me should that be true as I am currently in the condition of suffering….(Is that the sun?).I love holding onto the lawn to avoid sliding off the face of the earth.
    At some point I wandered through a room where “Full Throttle saloon” was on.All I -unfortunately-remember seeing on the episode was a red headed midget with a pacifier in his mouth firing an M2 .50 caliber machine gun while wearing diapers.After that,it becomes somewhat fuzzy…
    Hope you all have a better year….

  110. RVN69 Says:

    sled tramp Says: “I love holding onto the lawn to avoid sliding off the face of the earth.”

    Or putting one foot on the floor to stop the bed from spinning! And that is the reason I gave up Bud’s for Budz.

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare


    To understand the life you have to live it! A patch is a patch, that’s all! If it means something more to you then you deserve to wear it. Some of the worst specimens of humanity i’ve met have been bikers, as well as some of the best. I think you’re right about some of the stuff you wrote, but there’s pros as well as cons to having organisation and control in the biker world; like less violence.
    The biker scene is a far cry from what it was 30/40 years ago; I grew up in England and it didn’t matter what bike you rode (British was best!)as long as it was on the road, but it was more about whether you were a brother or not. It seems to be about posing now! I think that Harley Davidson has a lot to answer for, with all the overpriced crap that bears their logo! As for the glamourisation of the Outlaw biker, maybe we can blame some of that on the way one large international MC has carried itself over the years, and one individual in particular?!
    I personally think life was better (& more dangerous) when you and your pals could start a club and make whatever name for yourselves you cared to, without feeling like you were stepping on other peoples’ toes. If you’re straight up and righteous, then what’s the problem?
    As for you ACOP, maybe you should concentrate on catching criminals and leave the bikers to police themselves; you could never understand them unless you were one. Sons of Anarchy and all other media portrayals of bikers are fantasy and at best just scratch the surface.
    Brotherhood goes into a very strange and sometimes messy existence, which someone in their right mind can only try and imagine!
    In the UK, the biker scene I lived and knew has died and transformed into a plastic counterfeit, where people think living in a fantasy “Bikerworld” is living the real thing, even if they’re patched up! Most of my brothers are dead, in prison, mental homes or still on the run!!
    Having said all this, I do believe that there are still bikers in America, but they’re in the minority of what passes for biker brotherhood!!
    Rebel, I admire you taking a stand for justice as you see it, but you’re a bit naïve if you think you can take the establishment on and win?! America sold out to satan many years ago, as did the UK; the only way of escape now is in Jesus Christ!…take it or leave it.
    Judgement is coming and Hell is forever!!

  112. IrishDragon Says:

    Fortunately I didn’t wake up with a hangover this New Year’s. So I woke up and drank some more. Hope this new year is a better one for all of you.


  113. Shyster Says:

    Repent or Perish,

    That was some heavy shit you wrote towards the end of your comment. One man CAN take on the “establishment” AND win. I have tons of respect for Rebel and the knowledge he posts here. Many times I disagree with some of his thoughts and conclusions but I feel he does his research and makes a good faith attempt at being impartial. As for the UK and USA selling out to the devil …. Remember that all it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing.



    I meant no disrespect to Rebel. You’re right in what you say, it’s hard to make a difference and Rebel’s having a good go at it; more power to him!

  115. observer Says:

    This man addressing a larger issue here. Note his closing word: “forever”. And, just before it “…take it or leave it.”

  116. Phuquehed Says:

    Saw three IO guys this past weekend as I was sitting at a gas station drinking a coffee to warm up some for the second half of my ride to the new years party at my buds house.

    They pulled in on some nice, shnazzy, weekend-rider-only bikes (the paint and graphics were far too expensive to be out on every day like I use my bike all year). Two were so fat there’s no way they could’ve been pigs, the third could’ve been though.

    They just stood around their bikes in the parking lot, I suppose trying to impress people. It didn’t work as far as I could tell by the lack of reactions by folks pulling in to gas up in their cages.

    The biggest fatass of the three came in to piss and saw my helmet and figured he’d ingratiate himself into my little bubble on the planet by saying how he liked it and fuck everyone. I literally ignored him (can’t shut my ears up though unfortunately) and didn’t even look at him. I almost laughed at him on his way out though as every couple of seconds he had to pull up his new chaps.

    Later that same day after I arrived at my buds house, a few of us were outside just bs’ing and a rice-burner pulled up. My bud knew who it was and introduced me to him. He seemed okay but was a little bit too ‘straight’ for me to want to party with him again. Found out a few minutes later that he is a member of the IO. I said what a shit fake club it was and how ‘members’ buy their way in and said they even had to steal the colors. He said it’s not the same colors as Outlaws MC…he said IO is “white on black”. I laughed at him and said he doesn’t even know how the patch colors are for the club and told him it was proof to me that it’s full of weekend warriors and watered down wannabes and pigs (he’s not a cop and doesn’t think any members in the chapter he’s in are either). He was clearly embarrassed and as he was a decent dude besides being a poser, I told him to forget it and that we were all there for the party not to argue.

    He’s only had his bike for 6 months. I’ve lived here since ’97 and never until this past weekend seen the IO and never even heard of them until this thread. Already I hate them as they’re nothing more than glorified SoA punks and wannabes. Makes me sick to my stomach that they have no clue to the honor and pride it takes to get in a *REAL* MC.

  117. Jnasty 11bravo Says:

    I am looking into a iron rockets chapter wich is a devision of io for sport bikes. I’m not a cop I’m a army vet I like to drink and I like to fight but I can not find any other club that has a brotherhood that let’s sport bikes join. If there was a 1% club with sports bikes maybe it would be a different story. I understand about the history not Bering street bikes but I love to ride, and just like the military I like a strong brotherhood any advice you have would help. Thank you.

  118. Philo Says:


    My advice: Do what you want to do man. And don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. You want to start a crotch-rocket club and are willing to fight for it, I say good on you man.



    Iron Order doesn’t sound like a good move as they won’t allow anyone in with a felony conviction and you probably won’t be long getting one if you like to fight?! What would happen if you got convicted whilst you were in them?….would they kick you out?…some brotherhood!
    Sure, even dressing as a biker attracts police attention, I once got arrested and locked up for stealing my own bike! and that’s one of many of my experiences of police harrassment.
    Have you checked out any of the black based clubs…they seem to like sportsbikes?

  120. YYZ Skinhead Says:


    A lot of the black clubs that are made up of kids, prefer ricerockets for speed racing. Most of the old school black clubs (East Bay Dragons, Cobras, Soul Brothers, Zodiac, Brothers of the Sun etc) ride real bikes.

    YYZ Skinhead


    Thanks YYZ Skinhead,
    I stand corrected.

  122. guess who Says:

    People who have not just stumbled upon this site will recognize by his tone that the commenter who identifies himself as “Guess who” is, of course, a fool who trolls here from time to time. He has previously identified himself as “Just A Question.” He is probably a cop. He may be a 14-year-old kid. Who can tell the difference?


    repent or perish,

    Do us all a favor and keep your religious rhetoric to a minimum. I suggest you get a booth at the hell raiser ball and/or blessing of the bikes, and preach to the weak minded gentlemen which attend those events.

  123. guess who Says:

    People who have not just stumbled upon this site will recognize by his tone that the commenter who identifies himself as “Guess who” is, of course, a fool who trolls here from time to time. He has previously identified himself as “Just A Question.” He is probably a cop. He may be a 14-year-old kid. Who can tell the difference?


    Phuquehed ,

    you should watch your language around those guys, the last thing you need is a fist up your ass.


    guess who
    God bless you….

  125. YYZ Skinhead Says:


    Sorry if that sounded snarky. I only meant that the crotchrocket clubs are for black kids who hustle street races, as opposed to the old school black clubs who ride Harleys, Beemers, Triumphs et al.

    YYZ Skinhead

  126. KK Says:

    guess who

    I must of missed it, is it something new here for 2012, when did you become the Moderator of the site?

    Is this you in the video below?


    YYZ Skinhead
    You didn’t sound snarky, don’t worry about it.
    God bless you

  128. observer Says:

    “guess who” indeed.

  129. Rebel Says:

    Dear guess who,

    And I see you are coming to us today from “Hurricane Electric,” an internet backbone and tunneling provider in Fremont. So, unless you are a teenage hacker pissed off at his biker Dad, you are Big Brother.

    Guess I am just gonna have to write another story about how dirty ATF investigations are. Ciccone in particular. How does January 20 work for you?


  130. bob Says:

    KK@good clip.I’d like to see the aftermath,i.e.the affected property-owners conversing with Wasted Load.

  131. Philo Says:

    Damn it! I check here all the time for new comments and the one day I don’t we get a new troll. lol



    Guess who

    It’s interesting in your post that you disrespected both bikers and Christians, as there are many similarities; both live by a moral code, which probably explains why there are so many Christian bike clubs/ministries. I know that as humans we make mistakes and however strong our desire to do good we often fail, but the desire is there, whether to honour Jesus Christ or your club brothers or indeed both.
    You however, if you are a cop, expose your lack of morality by your comments and the motivation behind doing so. Why bother…unless of course you’re searching for something you’ve lost? which would explain why you keep coming back to this site and seeking to upset it’s users, especially Rebel. Are you jealous? I don’t know what’s happened to you in the course of your life to leave you so twisted; i’m sure you’ve seen a lot of things in your job that’s been disillusioning and depressing? Maybe you can’t handle that other people aren’t so unhappy? ‘cos you definitely are!
    When you became a cop, wasn’t there some kind of oath you made? Or isn’t there a creed you’re supposed to live by? Is it nothing to you?
    But no matter, God made you, He loves you and paid for all your sins in His Son’s precious blood, so there’s hope for you yet! However messed up you feel, there’s still time for you to call on the name of Jesus Christ and surrender your sinful life to Him. He will accept you and pour out His love, mercy and forgiveness into you and give you a new life. I know, He did it to me and i’d never go back to the living hell life was before.

  133. Phuquehed Says:

    @Guess Who – and who would know better about getting fists up their ass from pansy-assed IO members than you.

    You’re not only a pig, you’re an imbecilic, fucktard of a pig. I bet even prosecutors think you’re more stupid than a table with only two legs.

    Keep commenting though, we missed having someone to laugh so hard at and about.

  134. Phuquehed Says:

    @Philo – Don’t fret it bud. The fucktard doesn’t know when he’s the butt of a whole forum’s jokes and is looked upon with pity. He’ll stick around just because he’s too stupid to be embarrassed.

  135. Philo Says:

    LOL Right. So did Rebel already cut out some of his comments? I only see a couple up there. Maybe of to the JAQ honeymoon suite? lol


  136. Shyster Says:

    Sled Tramp,

    That picture looks like the original Big Wheel. Man I just went back in time to 1971.


  137. sled tramp Says:

    Pleasanton California 1971.

  138. Glenn S. Says:

    How does one go about having one of those little thumbnail pictures on his posts?

  139. Phuquehed Says:

    @Glenn S. – I can’t remember exactly, but if you go to I think that will get you started. Many blogs and websites that use avatars go through and when you join up on those blog sites or websites your avatar will automagically be used there from then on.

    YYZ Skinhead should be able to confirm if I’m right or not, I helped her but I’ve forgotten how I did it so many years ago for myself.

  140. jrnr Says:

    Well, look who’s back, guess who or JAQ(off)or whatever you’re name is today. What, bored again, can’t find any new gay porn sites to visit faggot. To all of you shit stirring cop pricks, FUCK YOU!

  141. Glenn S. Says:

    Thanks, Phuquehead. Now let’s see if this works.

  142. Phuquehed Says:

    I think you messed up somewhere. Log back in to and click on where it says to ‘add an image’ (or something like that). What happened is your name is an URL link to your gravatar, so something somewhere wasn’t done quite right, but at least it’s getting there.

  143. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    Glenn S and Phuquehed:

    IIRC you need to make a profile on and upload a pic, then that pic will be linked to the address in any WordPress blog. I think that to get it to show on this site you need to manually type the email addy you use on Gravatar, into the email space on this site (possibly more than once). It took a few days for it to show. Hope this helps.

    YYZ Skinhead

  144. chevyweight Says:

    they say the patch doesn’t make the man but the man makes the patch… so my question is, does the badge make the idiot or does the idiot make the badge?

  145. chevyweight Says:

    ok, i just thought of an answer for my own question:

    the idiot makes the badge, but the badge makes the idiot an asshole – XD

  146. Grumbler Says:

    Wearing a badge is an impetus for negative personality traits as demostrated by the flawless expulsion of malodorous excrement whenever guess who plants his dingleberry riddled arsehole on that shit stained keyboard of his. Even sheep won’t have sex with that maniacal dung heap. An obnoxiously pathetic, starved for attention ingrate lost in a putrid wasteland of his own delusions.

  147. Rebel Says:

    Dear chevyweight,

    Very good.


  148. Glenn S. Says:

    Unfortunately, the badge makes the idiot and/or the asshole relevsnt, kinda like the crackhead becomes relevant if he marries my sister (or comes in my yard, in which case my dog chews him to shit). But the keyboard just makes the asshole stink a lot worse.


    To be fair there are good cops too! I’ve always tried to avoid them and have been falsely prosecuted by them more than once, but I do recognise the need for them. I had a job rehabilitating cons and drug addicts etc… and had to call them in once or twice.
    I had a friend who came back from fighting in Vietnam, joined his local sheriff’s dept and had to leave ‘cos of all the corruption they were trying to get him into; he left and ended up a 1%er!

  150. Glenn S. Says:

    The detective captain that busted me back in ’84 was likable and personable. He retired to become an English teacher after he threw his hat in the ring for police chief and another candidate was selected. I run into him around town every year or two, and he is courteous, as am I. But just because he is personable, doesn’t make him my friend.

    His purpose in life was to put me and others like me in a cage for a period of time entirely disproportional to any offense. He was the enforcement arm for a corrupt system that uses incarceration-on-steroids to distract from the fact that the politicians are not doing a good job at solving more pressing problems.

    I think that caging a man is an act of violence. I believe caging a man is far more violent than, say, kicking a man’s ass or slapping a woman. Cloaking that act of violence in the trappings of authority doesn’t make it morally superior to barroom fight where at least your opponant has a chance, just as robbing somebody while wearing a tie while sitting at a desk doesn’t make it morally superior to robbing a bank.

    Just because a cop is not a 100% asshole doesn’t make him an anti-asshole. He still chose a life’s work that consists of caging his fellow man when his fellow man did nothing to him or his. That’s close enough to asshole for me.

  151. Rashomon Says:

    I actually liked the old days when they’d haul you in, beat you around the head with a phone book and throw you out again – everybody knew exactly where they stood and life went on. I was usually guilty of something anyhow so you’d take your lumps and move on – these days it’s a whole different ball game unfortunately and no fun at all.



    Times are changing! Check out the bikes.
    I came across these on the internet, so I thought I’d share them with you.

  153. Shyster Says:

    Very well said Glenn S.


  154. SingSing Says:

    Wow. This has been an interesting forum. For sure. Im ridin Independant. Tried the club thing. Its cool for those who want it. Philo n Rebel speak gospel about this life. here is an open ended question to other riders out there..
    I notice so many divisions and micro-divisions within “The Life” that ive actually grown a bit disillusioned about it a bit. I ACCEPT and EMBRACE the FACT that many many Bikers (of the Ol Skool variety) have bled, been jailed and have died for this life of ours. I, for one, am very grateful that the real deal ol school bikers who’ve paved the ways and thru the way they lived their lives solidified “The Code” by which im still hoping we all try to conduct ourselves by. I have the utmosty respect for the strenth of purpose and sacrifices PH’s have made for them just to EARN their colors so i agree with the feeling of indignation that our world has towards those that DONT FOLLOW proper protocol. In my time ridin ive been with a few clubs n ive learned certain things that only ridin with those clubs would have enabled me to learn. For that im thankful for the brothers who pulled my coat tail and placed the bug in my ear bout “certain” codes of conduct. having said that I decided it best for me and my untamed character to break outta the club thing as it just wasnt for me. But i respect and understand the rules of the game. Even with some of the Christian clubs i notice a thread of division. Its a shame. Imagine what clout we’d all have if we all put aside all these bullshit games of “who’s a real Biker and who isnt”. We should all just shut up n ride. The “Posers” will soon enough cancel each other out and after the dust clears only the “REAL” Bikers will be left standing for all to see who the REAL ones are-and who arent. Just my worthless two cents. Ride with Jesus all. God ride with you all!

  155. YYZ Skinhead Says:


    Those are some killer sleds! Props for the link.

    YYZ Skinhead

  156. @nonymous Says:

    The urine order will never be a part of this world, just like their buddies the blue knights, etc. Im not worried about em. Got em pretty weel.schooled where im at.

  157. Goldsboro Williams Says:

    @nonymous: I don’t think you need to look at the Blue Knights as ‘pretenders’ of a sort. I rode with them once on an invite, and it was the most boring day of my life. Most were on Goldwings, talking to each other with mics on their helmets. Several were towing trailers, which, instead of being full of beer were instead filled with hibachis, yard games, etc..

    It was like being at a church picnic. A Mormon church at that.

  158. tiger Says:

    Fuck those leo lovin’ cosksuckers! One day I will find they’re secret hideout. It’s not a clubhouse because they hide like the rats they are. Too scared to really stand up and say “Here we are” like a real club the cowardly fucks. Sorry for the rant Respect to those who’ve trully earned it Tiger

  159. black Says:

    I ran into one of these iron order guys in new orleans. Being in the local chapter of the skull cult mc (at the time) I Offered to take the guy and his girl out for a night on the town. He immediately started asking about our girls and if we were a 1% organization which I feel is rude from a outsider. As far as I am concerned these dudes are fucking idiots and deserve to be stripped.

  160. dan the man Says:

    “So, what happens when they become the biggest club in the area? Sure some dude with nothing to lose will try and take a patch, but from the sounds of it, IO is quick with a cell phone. That, and most of the older riders don’t want the trouble of chasing off citizens in MC costumes. If IO sticks to the main roads and the highways – they’ll own the main roads and highways.”

    Not meant personally to anyone or any club(just pointing something out), but:

    End of an Era???

    I personally think this was an eventuality. Cell phones, digital cameras, surveillance cameras are everywhere, cheap, and tiny, oh, and high quality. Everyone has them not just the cops. There are high res cameras on cell phones, along with internet, and youtube. No one leaves the house without a phone out of reach outside survaliance.

    There are no places left to “bury a body”. The only place left for secrets are between a man and an heavily encrypted computer file. The only camouflage is in a crowd.

    The age where you can be an “outlaw” and wear cuts with insignia meant for extreme visability and operating is coming to an end.

    No sir, before you say something I am not celebrating this, nor is it my fault, merely pointing it out.

    I’ll pour one out for you all though.

  161. Enlightened Says:

    Hello all. I am a police officer. Before that I served in the Marine Corps. I’m new to the motorcycle community, having just purchased my first bike last year. I come from a large family of motorcycle riders, and militaryI veterans, none ever belonged to a club that I know of. Before I bought my bike I knew nothing about MC culture, as a police officer I was approached by members of the Blue Knights who told me I should join them, more recently I bumped into members of the Iron Order, who told me that they allowed police officers to join and that I should check them out. I have to say that I have become fascinated with MC culture and have done as much research as I can to learn more about it. I came across this forum while researching the Iron Order. I would like to thank you all for helping me to gain a fashion of understanding. I have decided not to pursue membership in any form of motorcycle organization. I just want to ride, have fun, and enjoy that freedom. I also like being a cop, I understand the stigma associated with all law enforcement, I’ve felt it from my own family. I cannot speak for any other person but myself, but for me I am not out to get anyone except those who prey on the poor and defenseless

  162. DesertH-D Says:

    “Enlightened”: First, thanks for your service in the Corps. Sorry you decided to follow that up by being a cop… You sound like a decent enough guy, hope you can stay above the corruption that seems ubiquitous among LEOs, and particularly among the fed alphabet soup nowadays.

    That being said, I put your handle in quotes above for a reason. Just wanted to point out, you actually are NOT. “Enlightened” that is… Not when it comes to the MC world anyway. Whatever research you may have done, and even whatever observations you have made here… You still don’t know jack shit! The only ones that DO, are those that have lived the life. Kindly keep that in mind, and try to avoid assumptions, especially in your chosen occupation.

    BTW – For being a cop club, the Blue Knights are at least honest about what they are. In my area (although I have heard it may be different in others), they do their own thing and stay out of everyone’s way. I won’t go to any party they’re likely to be at, nor to any event they put on (cops that ride are still cops), but they do show up to some of the COC’s open events, like the toy run. I’ve nodded to them, even exchanged a few pleasantries with one while waiting in line once. Be respectful to me, I’ll return the favor… My club and most others I know would point a cop that rides to them over a bunch of douchebags like the iron order.

  163. 12Gauge Says:

    I see all this coming down on the IOMC and just have to ask….just has to put in my two pennies. I got my first street bike in 1977, a Triumph 650, then a Norton 850 Commando, then another Triumph. It was 1982 before I could afford to buy my 1st Harley. My point is this. I am now 52 and have never been without a Bike; I live in Washington State and have NEVER put my bike away for the winter. I have lost friends due to the stupidity of A-Holes in cars and I myself have been run off the road more than once. From the age of 17 I have been on a bike, around MC’s and consider I have earned the right to call myself a Biker.

    In 1975 I lost an Uncle in Texas because while riding through to see relatives he refused to take off his cut while riding through, they killed him for that. At that time I made a promise to my mother and grandmother that I would never join a 1% MC. In 1982 I lost another Uncle, he whore those colors proud and in the end was shot in the head, again because he would not hand his cut over. Again I made a promise to my grandmother.

    Over the years there have been times I’ve wanted to belong to an MC, belong to a real Brotherhood. But because of my promise I made to my mother and Grandmother I never joined. Other than the MC’s I followed both my Uncle’s passion for the bike and lifestyle and I fill I have earned the right and respect to call myself a Biker.

    The IO is not a 1% MC, but what I have seen they do hold to a Brotherhood and Rebel attitude I could keep my promise to my mother and grandmother if I were to join this MC. I am not a Cop and my question is this; so from what I hear if I join the IO I would no longer have the right to call myself a Biker, I would over night become a weekend warrior. How crazy is that. I understand the prodigal but to follow it means you are told what you can wear, you have to follow the dominate clubs events and a % of your dues go to them right off the top. Sounds like another form of government rule. My Uncles put on cuts in a rebellion against our government and society so all I am saying is to maintain prodigal now days have just become another form of government and society control. I am a Biker and I should have the right to be a Rebel against any such control over me shouldn’t I.

  164. 10Gauge Says:


    No not a newbie or weekend warrior…..just a punk…This arguement has been beat to death…We are the real rebels because we don’t follow COC protocol…blah, blah, blah…My bet is the question is a moot point because you already are IO…Either way… just know this…If either of your uncles was still alive, they would kick your ass!


  165. observer Says:

    Shotgun comparison demo:

  166. 12Gauge Says:


    I am NOT IO yet and I really did throw it out there as a Legit question. You maybe right..if still alive maybe they would kick my ass,are maybe they wouldn’t. I was only 13 when my Uncle Bob got his full patch, he had 2 years of showing me his lifestyle and I loved and respected him and I took on their love for Bikes and Freedom. I know what their colors meant to them and as I grew older I grew to understand why they wouldn’t take them off when it was asked of them. My problem is I have always wanted to be part of a Brotherhood but because of my promise to my Grandmother I couldn’t. All I have ever known were 1% MC’s. All I ask is where do I turn then, can you understand a promise like the one I made to my grandmother ofter the loss of her only sons. I will also add that on top of feeling that I feel I have earned the right to call myself a biker I also feel I am far from a punk, I have had my jaw broke, nose broke and cut by a knife and all because I stood up to help friends over the years, so I don’t think I fall in the PUNK area either.

  167. 12Gauge Says:

    Ok this is a Legit question. I have lived my life showing Patch Holders Respect at the same time showing no fear. Now I want to belong to a Brotherhood with a 3 piece patch. As a 3 piece is that of my Uncles. If I get my buddies together and ask our Dominate MC to start a club with a 3 piece the answer will be NO. The ones they aprove are 1 or 2 piece, NEVER a 3 piece. Myself being a Biker since 1977 understand the whole respect thing and I know they deserve my respect for what they have gone through to wear thier colors but at the same time I ask for respect because I am a Biker and not just a wanna be…..what do I do with that….I feel I have the right to wear a 3 piece

  168. Rashomon Says:

    @observer – that’s too fuckin’ funny and she’s cute as well.

  169. Caretaker Says:

    You wanna wear a 3piece wjile honoring your promise,as I understand it. That is,in my opinion,very honorable. However,to show respect to your uncles,ANY club that allows leo’s to join is a disrespect to both your uncles,and their beliefs. There are many non outlaw clubs that wear a 3 piece that you can look into. If you yant to sjiw respect,and be respected,stay away from any leo club. You can find a 3 piece non leo club in your area by using google,or simply going to local events

  170. rollinnorth Says:

    Thanks, observer!

  171. 12Gauge Says:

    Thank you Caretaker, I have looked for a 3pc NON 1%er in my area..Can’t find one but I will keep looking. My whole adult life I have been stuck between a rock and a hard spot. A promise I made and the life of my Uncles, I remember the Brotherhood they had and I have always wanted to have it myself but because of that promise I was always unable to be part of it. I was excited to find the IO but now I am still stuck between a rock and hard spot. Deep down I know the advise my Uncles would give me, I just know at 52 I really want that Brotherhood they had and I know what that 3pc meant to my Uncles.

  172. Caretaker Says:

    12 guage-
    You are more than welcome,just remember it’s what’s in your heart that matters most. And just because a club isn’t a 3 piece doesn’t mean they don’t share the same bond of brotherhood. Search and ye shall find..

  173. 10guage Says:


    Only a punk if you put on that patch…If you understand the Brotherhood your uncles did you would know why. I do not understand the idea behind getting out of your promise on a technicality…And if it is BROTHERHOOD YOU ARE TRULY AFTER why does the design of your patch even matter. I do not know where you live but there are plenty of established clubs out there that you can check out, but if you have been around this life for 30 plus years it surprises me that you have not yet found a fit and because you have not I would just look deep at your motives and what you have to offer. I do not understand the nature of your promise or what you foresee being the conflict but EVERY Brotherhood will require choices and sacrifice…Sounds to me like you want your cake and eat it too.


  174. 12Gauage Says:


    I have been on my bike for 30 plus years and over the years I have been around different clubs, over the years I have been asked to hang around and ride, they were all 1% clubs. I have made friends over the years and admired the fact that no matter how much of a friend I was the Brothers of those friends always came before me.

    For 30+ years I have road without a club because of a promise I made to my grandmother and mother as a kid, I was 15. Had I known then what I’ve learned over the years I may not had made that promise but I did. You honestly can’t understand looking into your grandmother’s crying eyes as you make a promise 10g? That is a moment I will NEVER forget (Both Of Them)

    I lost my mother in 89 and my grandmother last year. Would it make me more of a man if I broke that promise to them now that they are gone? I think not. I broke my grandmother’s heart plenty over the years by the way I lead my life but I never broke that promise to her. I will also add 10g that when I got my first bike at 17 I was asked by my Uncle Bob’s club to be a hang around. I was a confused teenager and as much as he loved his club and put them first it was my Uncle Dennis who advised me to honor my promise to his mother and sister, my grandmother and mother. A promise, a stupid promise is why after 30+ years I have not been a Brother or had that bond 10g. Can you really not understand a lifelong promise like that. Yes, there has been many times over the years I’ve regretted that promise but I have always honored it.

    I do not want my cake and eat it to 10g. I just want to feel that kind of bond, be part of something much greater than I, a true Brotherhood before I die. It just can’t be with a 1% club or 1% support club because of a stupid promise made as a boy and NO I will not join a riding buy your way in club.

    Now I find out that I have hung around a club for almost a year only to find that I may have wasted my time because I wouldn’t have the respect that goes along with being part of a Brotherhood. I ran into an old friend of mine I hadn’t seen in years who after I talked about IO told me I better check out this site so here I am. Just shot out an honest question for some honest advice 10g. That is all, plain and simple, there was no need to get rude about it.


  175. Glenn S. Says:

    I would think that the best, and maybe only reason for joining a particular club is that its members are the brothers you want, men whose values and stance mirror your own. If one believes in the law enforcement culture and gravitates towards cops and their supporters, maybe the iron order is the club for that person but hey, why not go whole hog and put on the blue uniform? Go out and fuck with people who are just trying to get through another day. If somebody just wants three pieces of patch on their back, well, that says something too, and it sounds like somebody trying to be someone who, in their heart of hearts, they know they are not. That person should do himself a favor and not set himself up for failure. A man should honestly ask himself just who and what he is, and live his life accordingly.

    12 gauge, I, too, am 52. I bought my first bike two years ago after 25 years with a needle in my arm, 11 years in prison, and 12 years clean in Narcotics Anonymous. The first time I got the bike out of first gear, I thought: I wish I’d found this before I found dope. I also knew that the yuppies-on-wheels groups like HOG would not be a good fit for me. Now, 20,000 miles later, I am checking out the clubs, making the acquaintance and perhaps earning the friendship and respect of some of the members, and seeing which club, if any, would be a good fit for me. Because if it doesn’t fit, it won’t work, and even if it would, why do it if it doesn’t fit? Sure, a three piece patch would probably intimidate some people, but if I can’t do that on my own, I have no business in an intimidating club. It might attract women, but if I can’t do that on my own, I probably lack the self-confidance I’d need to make it in the world and I ought to trade my bike for a minivan and my leathers for some pleated khacki trousars and penny loafers.

    Nothing sadder than somebody trying to be what they are not, and my limited experience with clubs tells me that they can spot that one a mile away.

  176. 12Guage Says:

    I don’t want my cake and eat it too. I guess you just don’t get it 10g. That promise to stay out of a 1% or 1% support club has cost me a lot. And I do know the choices and sacrifice required by a club. I can NOT sacrifice my honor though. My question has been answered and I thank Caretaker for that. 10g I will NEVER be a punk no matter what is on my back. One of the things I learned at a young age, The Patch doesn’t make the man, the man makes and protects the Patch.

  177. 10Gauge Says:


    You asked a “legit” question…I gave you my answer. If you don’t like it too bad. I said there are plenty of established and respected traditional three piece clubs which are non leo out there you can check out.

    You are absolutely right however, I do not “get it”. I would not make the promise you made…so what? You did..and found a club that suits you..FINE. Honor it. But don’t expect me to RESPECT a patch that DOES NOT EARN OR DESERVE IT… and certainly not beceause of some promise involving your family legacy. As I said earlier it is a moot point because you already made your mind up…and your right the man does make the patch..The IO is full of cops that like to play dress up and call other cops when confronted..That is a fact!

    It does surprise me however, you have been in this life for 30+ years and spent over a year hanging around with IO and it took a friend to tell you about this place to find out the IO is not respected as you thought…you are right about one thing..people “get in” where they “fit in” in your case it looks to be with a dress up club out in la la land…Good luck with that!


  178. 12Guage Says:

    Glen S

    The thing is I agree with you and what you say is heavy. I am a Biker and have been one on my own. All I was saying is I thought I found a fit and had no idea until I was pointed to this site that the IO was disrespected and I get why. I have been invited to other clubs but as I said. 1% and I made a stupid promise at a young age that cost me what I really wanted. The only reason I look at the 3pc above 1 or 2 is what it meant to my Uncles. Caretaker made a good point and I took it to heart. I over looked the fact that it wasn’t the 3pc patch my Uncles died for, it was the Brotherhood that 3pc patch stood for.

    I am tierd of running alone, I want to be part of a Brotherhood I’ve missed out on all these years. I thought I found the one that fit but now I am giving it second thought because I do agree that patch on my back may be a disrespect to my Uncles. To me a Brotherhood will stand together NO matter what. I do NOT call everyone on a bike a brother because I don’t know them. A brother is someone who has your back at all cost. I am who I am Glenn S. NOT a man trying to be someone he’s not. Just a 52 year old Biker wanting something he has kept himself from for over 30 years. I only have about 2 minutes of fight left in my now days so I will save it for when it is needed. Other than that I just want to ride, fuck and drink. And just so you know, in my younger day I road 20,000 plus miles a year, my bike was my life. I am who I say I am, a BIKER, just takes me a bit longer to heal now days. The love of Freedom and joy of riding. That is what life is all about.

  179. observer Says:

    12 gauge: I respect your issue(s). But I think you should revisit your ongoing assessments of your pledge as “a stupid promise”. I think that probably bugs everybody, including you. It was a promise. It came with a cost. You made it. Man up and own it.

  180. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    Glenn S. wrote:

    “…I ought to trade my bike for a minivan and my leathers for some pleated khacki trousers and penny loafers”

    I was going to insist that you take that back, but then I remembered that it’s not the pleated khaki trousers and penny loafers that make the man….

  181. 12Guage Says:

    Thank you observer. You are right, it was a promise of the heart that did in deed come with a cost. I do own it, and it is my choice to honor it and I didn’t feel it a stupid promise at the time. Again, thank you observer.


  182. observer Says:

    SVD: “Square Pride!”

  183. bob Says:

    I remember kids whose moms would not let them play JV football.I don’t know if they all ended up sucking dick,or not.Never tell the whole damn world about alleged promises made to relatives.WTF is this ,”The Coward of the County”?After hearing about the IO involvement in the Sosebee case on this blog ,no poster should be professing a willingness to join that bunch.

  184. 12Gauge Says:

    Hey Bob…..I came on here because an old friend pointed something out to me….I came on here for advise from Bikers who know of the IO….Advise given…Advise taken and I’ve shown NO one disrespect….but yet you hide behind your computer and show me disrespect Bob……I have never put a patch on my back and I have always held my own….I will say one thing Bob…..I bet you suck dick and don’t even know what honor is…..get the dick out of your mouth Bob….

  185. Glenn S. Says:

    No offense intended, Doc. I was speaking figuretivly. Surely not penny loafers, though.

    12 guage, its a bitch getting old with unfulfilled dreams. So I’m out fulfilling mine. Joining a pretend motorcycle club full of cops and their supporters is not one of them, thank the gods. Like others here, I do not understand your diliema.

    Some years back, a neighbor of mine was fucking this woman who dreamed of becomming a cop. She had been rescued from some sick individuals by cops when she was a child, and looked up to them. She knew a little about my background (and was always trying to give me the pussy) so she asked me what I thought of her becoming a cop. I told her it was none of my business and I really didn’t care. But I also told her to be aware that the concept of cops being the “good guys” and anybody that broke a law being a “bad guy” was bullshit. It was just two sides in a conflict, and everyone is free to choose their own side for whatever reason, and now go have a good life away from me. Ran into her a year or so later, she was a county sheriff’s deputy. Ran into her a year or so after that and she’d been fired for theft. I think she expected me to disapprove of her being a cop, and then approve of her stealing, but I didn’t really give a shit either way.

  186. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    “No offense intended, Doc. I was speaking figuretivly. Surely not penny loafers, though.”

    None taken–I’m just adding my own levity. And yes, penny loafers. They’re very comfortable. For me. Your mileage will vary. Apropos of this thread.

    “Be who you are”….JR Reed
    “Dowhatyoulike”…..Greg Jacobs

  187. 12Guage Says:

    Glenn S I no longer have a diliema about joining the IO. That is my point, I met a group of guys and started hanging out and riding with them. I ran into an old friend who pointed me to this site. I will NOT be part of it now. I asked advise…..I was given good advise and I took it….NO diliema anymore.

    As we all know even a NON outlaw club is a support club one way or another…..So…To Honor both, my Uncles and a promise I will remain solo as I have always done. A biker with out a club.

    What I will say is I have always shown respect and no matter what club I been around they have always shown me respect. So I will continue on as I have always done.

  188. super unknown Says:

    As I look at resent MC history it seems to me there are cops in every club. The difference between your club and mine is that I know who the cops in my club are

  189. observer Says:

    super unknown: That’s a pretty cogent and demoralizing observation. Rather like joining a Herpes dating club just to get it over with.

  190. anon Says:


    Let’s get this straight. You’re 52. You want the brotherhood of being in an MC, by which you mean guys who have your back no matter what and won’t run and be a bunch of cop-callers. You want a three-piece patch because that’s what your uncles had, and you think it’s an offense to their legacies to wear a one-piece or two-piece patch. Those uncles were both 1%ers, but you refuse to join a 1% club because of your promise. You’ve been a biker for 30 years and seem to imply that you’ve only ever met (i) 1%er club, (ii) IO, and (iii) other clubs that didn’t fit the bill.

    Is this all correct?

    Oh, and, “I am a Biker and I should have the right to be a Rebel against any such control [referring to the dominance of the dominant 1%er club in the are] over me shouldn’t I. [sic]”

    I’m not a part of the MC world, but allow me to try and clear some things up. No disrespect intended towards you or any patch-holder on here.

    My guess is that the general consensus (and my own personal bias) is that any LEO-friendly club does not have the brotherhood you’re seeking. There will always be members who back down, refuse to support you, or call the cops when a situation arises. Those aren’t brothers. At least not to me. It sounds like they wouldn’t be to you. And my guess is that nobody in the type of MC you’re looking for would tolerate such members. IO is openly LEO-friendly.

    On the three-piece patch or patches of your uncles, since I don’t know if they were in the same club. I don’t see the issue. There are three-piece non-1%er clubs and 1%er clubs that don’t wear their pieces. I may be wrong, but I’m fairly certain the Pagans wear what would be called two pieces and the Vagos only one. Most people would refer to them as 1%er clubs. Your uncles, if I may be so bold as to speculate, did not give a shit about number of patches stitched onto the back of their cuts. They cared about the particular patches and the particular brotherhood they belonged to and which those patches represented. One, two, or three pieces is irrelevant. 1%er, non-1%er but still outlaw, or AMA recognized is irrelevant. Either it’s a brotherhood, or it’s not.

    I do honestly have a hard time believing that you’ve been associated with the MC world for 25-30 years (you mentioned being approached by one uncle’s club when you started riding at 17, right? And you’re 52 now? So, at least 25 years) and only finding 1%er clubs and IO as the only MC options.

    As for the quote I included. “I am a Biker and I should have the right to be a Rebel against any such control over me shouldn’t I.”

    You can rebel against any control you want, biker or not. There are often consequences for such rebellion, biker or not. You have the right to be such a rebel. If you choose to be such a rebel, you should also realize, understand, and be prepared to deal with the consequences of that rebellion. The 1%ers that you don’t want to be a part of are dealing with those consequences on a daily basis, as you should realize just by reading the front page of this site. Wearing any three-piece patch that isn’t LEO-friendly will likely draw consequences from LEO just for appearing to be a 1%er MC.

    Life is about choices and consequences. Make your choices. Accept and deal with the consequences.

    As others have mentioned, there are plenty of clubs that are neither 1%er nor LEO-friendly. Find one that offers what you are looking for. Or don’t. You can also look for that brotherhood you seek elsewhere.

  191. KK Says:

    Anon: I am not the brightest bulb out here & on occasion I can be totally burnt out if you will but you stated:

    “I’m not a part of the MC world, but allow me to try and clear some things up. No disrespect”

    WTF. That’s just about the ULTIMATE disrespect for any patchholder here, regardless of association.

    12G: You sound like you would make a decent,loyal “hangaround” maybe even an associate after a bit who knows. Nothing shamefull in that, I’ve known plenty for over 20,25 years. You would keep your heart intacted too.

    Ok back to my grand dad whisky & rapper weed.


  192. anon Says:


    You’re right, and I apologize to everyone on here for the comment, especially all of the patch holders, past or present.

    I’ve posted on here for a bit under the name, even though it chose a stupid version of “anonymous” since I originally thought I would only leave one or to random comments. I kept the name only so that people could keep track of my continuing comments and to establish a reputation – good or bad – based on the comments I’ve made.

    I’ve made some comments in the past about being involved in another world which is subject to a substantial amount of prejudice and bigotry from the outside world which is mostly based on the prejudice and bigotry of the accusers instead of the accused.

    All of my comments came from that perspective. My impression, for many reasons, is that many people on this site would agree. I add the disclaimer to make it clear that I do not speak for any MC member, regardless of their affiliation or lack thereof.

    To reiterate that last point, let me post the full quote from me instead of your excerpt.

    “I’m not a part of the MC world, but allow me to try and clear some things up. No disrespect intended towards you or any patch-holder on here.”

    In all honesty and with all due respect, I tried to keep my comments polite but direct while also acknowledging my role as an outsider and making it clear that I was not speaking for any club member or club.

    If I have somehow offended you or anyone else on this site, I really do deeply apologize for the offense. I was attempting to speak in general terms to the poster which, in my own personal experience, do transcend the MC world. Nonetheless, I do not speak in any way, shape, or form for the MC world.

  193. Rebel Says:

    Dear KK,

    Not to hijack whatever this thread is but whisky and weed sure would hit the spot about now.


  194. RVN69 Says:

    KK Says:”Ok back to my grand dad whisky & rapper weed”.

    OH Damn, you got the GOOOOD stuff!!

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare

  195. onikeeg Says:

    I have had some dealings with IOMC in SC, it does not surprise me this incedent occurred. I’ve seen first hand their interactions with established clubs and its not pretty, their general lack of knowledge when it comes to protocol with established 3 patch clubs makes one smack their head in response.

    I’m still a young pup in this world so I acknowledge that I have a lot of learning and experience to gain not only with being a “biker” , whatever you want to call it, but also the club life. The things I’ve learned from patchholders has been precious to say the least.

    I have learned enough to stay clear o LEO clubs, they put a bad taste in my mouth. The one thing I will say is I’ve seen a IO member wearing a SOA shirt which should say enough. By the way my understanding is that IO national pulled the SC chapter patches for obvious reasons, still don’t know what to think about them considering I’ve seen them fall back on the badge before.

  196. lesss than lethal Says:

    the more I experience the biker world, the less I like IO.

    I’ve also noticed that rules on rockers are more generalizations and who can and cannot wear a three piece varies from area to area. I’ve seen some AMA clubs with three pieces, and the pagans wear what is now called a two piece.(they also wear the %1 diamond)

    A two piece can be vauge and also dependent on localilty.

    Even among three pieces there is a distinction between what piece of geography can go on the bottom rocker. Again, this varies by locale. Different dominants have different rules, even among different chapters of the same crew.

    Along the way there are plenty of small mostly unnoticeable clubs in 1, 2, and 3 piece which are both recognized and not in any way shape fitting the requirements of such, if any such inspection would to take place, and if anyone were really to care. There are about the same who are legit and dedicated.

    So far I’ve only recognized two styles of patches of which there is little ambiguity. A Rhomboid diamond which represents the %1, and the American flag for patriotism. Everything else becomes somewhat vague.

    But lets get back to this Iron Order. There are plenty of “law abiding family oriented” clubs. Most of them are very happy to distinguish themselves from the %1 and three piece clubs by wearing a 1-piece.

    That said, personal experience is that a 1-piece “family friendly” “citizen”‘s club that doesn’t try and be something they are not, is still more likely to receive negative attention from the cops than the %1 or other three pieces.

    Then we come to the national franchise, most one and two piece clubs, and just about every LEGIMATE ma’ and pa’ style club are small, I’d say vast majority single chapter clubs. Iron Order seems to be giving a charter to anyone who wants it without any real links to the club in general. Why are they so eager to expand rapidly, especially if they don’t claim turf.

    After wearing three pieces, getting into fights with Hells Angels, and rapidly expanding, how is this Iron Order, not immediately placed on some sort of government watch list. How are they NOT on gangland?

    Even from an outsider’s perspective, they just don’t add up.

  197. Pappy Says:

    I don’t like rules or criminals…I got no problem with cops…Maybe this Iron Order is worth checking out!

  198. Rebel Says:

    Dear Pappy,

    Go for it.


  199. Quagmire Says:

    I’ve been reading this thread all night and have learned alot. Upfront and honest, I am a cop and I belong to a LE MC, not the IOMC. Yes we wear a 3 pc patch and no, we did not ask permission from a “dominant club”. I served in the military for years and felt I earned my rights and live in a free country. I was raised to give respect to all. I have came across 1%ers while on duty. I gave them the same respect they gave me. Hell, I gave one a couple of gallons of gas once. All I asked in return was him to stop and pick me up if he ever saw me walking along the road. I am a biker. Been on bikes for over 30 years now. I live to ride. I love my Brothers, want to wear my Colors, and ride. I don’t care if you want to do the same. I am not offended. And I am not trying to offend you. So, I am asking advice on how to show respect to another MC should I come across members while wearing my Colors. Honestly, any meeting would be at a restaurant or gas station, or just passing on the road. I am too fucking old to hang in a bar wearing my Colors waiting for some young punk to try to take it from me. I am not too old to fight, but definitely too old to lose. This is a legit question. And yes I expect to be slammed about being a cop and in a LEMC. That’s ok, broad shoulders and thick skin…

  200. ToSlick Says:


    12G Has retired and won’t be back. It took longer than I thought but ol 12G got done what was needed and the point that was made is he wasn’t a loyal hang around at all. Didn’t you follow that thread, he burned the IO pukes in a big way and you think that is a loyal hang around.12G did what he had to do He kept a good man from making a very bad mistake the man just doesn’t realize it yet. He wasn’t very happy with me last time I seen him we had to help him to his car and he was still calling me names and don’t think he liked 12G very much either. Gawd I am so funny. KK you need to look up the word loyal 12G was far from loyal dude…

  201. LongHaul Says:


    To each his own man. Pappy to you I say if that’s your thang then go for it. I would like to point out though all the drama on here over the IO I find that keeping a patch off my back keeps the drama away. Just ride man why would you want to bring all that drama down on yourself.

  202. ToSlick Says:

    I so agree with you onikeeg about LEMC and the IOMC is nothing but a joke. I see them on the other side all the time and happy to say we don’t have any of them in our area. I don;t understand how they think it is ok to put on a costume and play biker when they have no real understanding of what clubs had to go through at all. It is not ok to play dressup as a grown man.

  203. BadMagic Says:

    less than lethal,

    Some of the oldest, still active, national clubs wear a so called “one piece”.


    Cops and non AMA (outlaw) clubs aren’t on a level playing field on the streets, courts, or off-duty. Clubs can respect cops.

    Read and watch Rebels article on talking to police.
    ( )

    I believe calling cops is generally frowned upon in non AMA clubs. Not for any criminal motive on the clubs part, but for lack of respect and penchant toward all out harassment on the cops part. I’d say the best way to show respect is to simply refrain from disrespect. Now, this all being said, let me ask you a question. What would you do if you did run across a MC member that felt disrespected by you? If you were around several of them, would you feel threatened? Would you call a cop? Do you rely on your authority? Your cop brothers? Or yourself? Do you have any past experience with a club or club member that you can speak to? Something along the lines of, “We/ I have talked to [blank] MC. We stick to this and that. We mean no disrespect. etc.”?

    I think it less shitty to be a cop who is willing to stand up to their department and do whatever they want when off duty. “Earned my rights and live in a free country” and all. I also don’t think it is necessarily a good career move either. And that itself should show you the hypocrisy of the profession you’ve chosen.

    As a vet, let me thank you for recognizing and defending my INALIENABLE rights.

    As a cop who thinks you have to earn them, well…


  204. longhaul Says:

    Now that is funny toslick, grown men playing dressup. On their website they seem to focus a lot on brotherhood and respecting those who respect them. From eveything I see and hear I’m not so sure they even know what brotherhood is and being a long haul trucker I get around and I have yet to hear of any seasoned club any where who respects the IO it is the same every where I go. The IO is nothing more than a puppy mill pushing through chapter after chapter to make the numbers larger. Best I can tell is if it really came down to it out of every 20 IO wanna be bikers maybe 6 would stand together so where is the brotherhood in that. Yes sir you boys in the IO feel your club deserves respect when reality is that you haven’t earned respect.

  205. Quagmire Says:

    Bad Magic, thank you for your reply. I do try to live my life without disrespecting anybody, biker or not. I would not necessarily feel threatened by being around another MC, unless they are threatening me! Would I call a cop? No, I would do my best de-ass the area and if I have to fight, well, then I fight. Not like I would have much choice. I am not just going to take an ass beating without doing my best. Would I rely on cop brothers, sure, if they are with me at the time. Just as you would rely on your brothers. Cops and MCs, put the facts on paper, and there are alot of similarities. Do cops hide behind their badges? Yeah, some do. I have known some chicken shit cops in my time who if they did not have the badge on would have got the shit kicked out of them. And I have also witnessed some MC members who would have had the shit kicked out of them if it was not for the Cut they were wearing. They hid behind their back patch. If you fight one cop, you fight us all. If you fight one MC member, you fight them all. God forbid you win, the cops will be after your ass for the rest of your life. God forbid you kick the MC members ass, his Club will stalk you for life. Both cops and MC members think they are the baddest, both think they can fuck the most women, both think they are the most rightous. Cops and bikers both have a Brotherhood, but we all know that there are those “Brothers” that would fuck you over in a pinch. There are plenty of documented cases of members of MCs killing each other and selling each other out. Same with cops.
    As far as a bad career move, probably. But I don’t live for my department. I am probably as high in the department as I will ever go and that is ok. Let me apologize, I do not believe one needs to earn his rights in this country. Poor choice of words on my part. My point was I have worked hard all my life, and I am not going to be dictated to as to what I can do, or who I can do it with. In the beginning, Clubs formed so guys could hang together, ride, party, and be left alone. So what if there was another club doing the exact same thing in town? What happened was the Clubs saw that money could be made peddling ass or grass. And the other Club became competition for the market. That is when the fighting began and turf wars spread. Now you have MCs popping up that are getting back to the original idea, Brotherhood, partying, riding, being left alone, and not giving a shit if someone else doesn’t like it. This appeals to me. That is why I joined a LEMC. I already know these guys, trusted several of them with my life. Most other MCs would not have me because of my job. LEMC was about my only option and I do not regret it. When I come across another MC, be it a 1% or not, I will be respectful. I am not one to talk under my breath or eye fuck people. If they want to kick my ass, well, I might not win against more than one, but they are going to know they were in a fight. Why they would want to kick my ass, I might never understand. Never understood what the difference between a damn Crip or a Blood was either. Both are black to me.
    Again, thank you Black Magic for your reply. I am learning.

  206. KK Says:

    ToSlick:” Didn’t you follow that thread, he burned the IO pukes in a big way and you think that is a loyal hang around.”

    Nah I guess I missed that thread about him, O well another hangaround down, wtf are ya gonna do these days. I never implied he was loyal, I said he might make a “loyal” hangaround or even a decent associate if he proved himself, big difference.

    We don’t have any I/O or whatever thier called around here, Ive asked a few brothers too, nothing yet on the road either.

    Quagmire: Your post for the most part sounds respectfull. I will keep it civil here, what annoys me is comments like:

    “My point was I have worked hard all my life, and I am not going to be dictated to as to what I can do, or who I can do it with.”

    You don’t think we havn’t worked all our lives? I can tell you we have been dictated to just about everywhere we ride. Hassled to no FKN end. You think a LEMC is gonna get stopped for loud pipes,no turn signal,following to close?

    You ever been pulled over & searched for no probable cause when riding with your LEMC? Ever have a fellow officer slip a bag of coke/pot whatever in the bags he/she was checking? I doubt it highly.

    Maybe I’m wrong but I doubt very much you wouldn’t call the cops if you were in a situation you thought you had no control in either.

    I can tell you that nobody in my chapter looks for trouble or harasses the innocent , I can’t say the same for most if not all cops.


  207. ToSlick Says:

    BadMagic That is perfect you are right on the money, well said.

    KK 12g will be ok now, they closed the door on him like yesterdays paper. His old friends will be there for him once he comes back to reality. The truth is the man is loyal to a fault, I just had to make him seem like he wasn’t for his own good.

    The IO says they show respect to those who respect them, the trouble with that statement is how they jumped right into the biker world showing disrespect to all other clubs out there. Rather than earn respect by doing things the right way they use cops as personal protection unlike a true hardcore biker who handles business without help from the law. Hardcore bikers stand up like men and handle any problems without the lawman. The IO picks up a phone at the first sign of trouble and calls 911. Now that is the actions of a hardcore biker, that is a club that deserves respect alright. How can they even respect themselves when they are the punks on the block and show us every day. They make me sick with all the shit about they have the right to do this or the right to do that and didn’t need permission to do anything that is all fine but they don’t stand together as men willing back it all up. They talk the talk but then depend on the law to say their asses. Yep, that is what we all think of when thinking of a hardcore motorcycle club. What a joke.

    Since I am on this rant about the IO I will throw this question out there. Knowing that the IOMC is the biggest joke in the biker world. How would you feel if your long time friend was becoming one of them, he began blowing his friends off just because they may have made a few negative comments about the IO. What would you do and how far would you go to stop him from joining such a punk ass club. I would do whatever and go as far as I had to in convincing him to change his mind. That is exactly what I did, no matter what I did to him not once did he call the cops to report me or have me arrested and that only confirmed to us that he was not the type of man for the IO after all we all know that an IO man would call 911 and have them handle any problems. I never gave up and the payoff is that I kept him from joining the IO and becoming the laughing stock of our county. I am hated for it now but he will thank me someday. Wouldn’t you do whatever you could to keep a friend from becoming a punk.

  208. Quagmire Says:

    No, I have not been harassed or pulled over with no PC. And you are right, I doubt we ever will. Any cop that plants evidence is no cop in my book. He is a criminal. I would not cover for him. He would be no brother of mine and a disgrace to his badge. I am not crooked, never have been crooked. As far as calling the cops, that would be interesting. I have never called the cops while off duty. Always just handled it the best I could by myself. It’s worked so far. But if I did, wouldn’t it be the same if you called your MC Brothers if you were outnumbered? Not too long ago I pulled into a bike shop to ask about some repairs. I was flying my LEMC Colors. There was a MC member of a support club there. He was eye fucking me bad when I pulled in. I said a repectful “How’s it going” as I entered the place. He sort of just grunted at me and quickly pulled out his cell phone. Within 15 minutes, he was joined by another patched member and 2 prospects. Once they had gathered they came in and asked who I was and who I rode with. I politely told them about my MC and asked a few questions about theirs. I was respectful and courteous. Of course they asked if we were a cop club. I did not lie and told them yes. They kind of walked away after that. When I was leaving, they were gathered out by their bikes. I walked over to them, wished them well, and shook their hands. My point with this story is that we both depend on our Brothers for protection. Don’t fault me for that.
    No disrespect intended on the working comment. I’m not sure how to word what I mean then. I’m gonna do what I’m gonna do. Just the way you do. Even after all the harassment you have recieved over the years, you still do what you want, correct? How about not simply labeling me as a cop, but as a man. Cop is a job, nothing more. And saying all cops harass the innocent is like saying all MC members are drug dealers and murderers. It’s just not true. KK, I do appreciate your comments. I may disagree with you, but that is not a sign of disrespect. Now, this may sound stupid, but again, I am looking for guidance to protect myself and my Brothers. I wave at all bikes on the open highway when I am riding. I have waved at other members of MCs. Sometimes they wave back, other times they don’t. If I don’t wave, is that a sign of disrespect? Heck, am I being disrespected if they don’t return the gesture? Might seem like a dumb question, but I know even small slights can quickly get blown out of proportion and people can get hurt.

  209. longhaul Says:


    I would let that friend hang with whoever he wanted and not put my nose where it didn’t belong. No disrespect to you but what really gives you the right to decide what a friend does or who he rides with. Sounds like the actions of a control freak jealous that the new kids on the playground might take your friend away. I don’t especially care for the IOMC myself but it sounds like it was more about you and not so much about the IO.

    If you continuously did things to your friend that he should have called the cops then maybe you shouldn’t call yourself his friend at all. I don’t know how people act where you’re from but where I’m from people respect and support their friends they don’t harass them or spend endless hours messing with them. If you are an example of his other friends then maybe that was why he was looking for others. I don’t think a man becomes a punk just because he joins some group he is already a punk or he isn’t. Was your interference in his journey because you dislike the IOMC, was it because you have no other friends and were afraid he would leave you or was it just because you think your choice for their life is more important than their own.

    It sounds like you are pretty proud of yourself for controlling your friends life. and if I read that right somehow you made your as you say loyal friend appear disloyal. That would be very messed up and if you were my friend I would get as far away from you as I could. Friends just don’t do that to other friends. You sound proud of yourself almost in a bragging way. You sound like one very messed up individual.

    Regardless of my feelings towards the IOMC if a friend of mine felt he fit in with them I may disagree but I would not involve myself with his choice or cause him problems in his life just because I didn’t agree with his choice in clubs and frankly I don’t think there are many people who would mess with a friend’s life like that. I am grateful you are not in my pool of friends. After he kicks your ass I hope he is smart enough to end such a so called friendship. You need help guy.

  210. AVAGOVFFV Says:

    There is no way in hell Quagmire is for real, he may be a cop but he has to be full of shit or just dumb.

    Here’s why…
    Quote number one

    “I am asking advice on how to show respect to another MC should I come across members while wearing my Colors.”

    Okay if he’s a cop in a department with more than himself than he has been though outlaw biker 101. There’s not a cop in the country hasn’t been to the gang ID training or OMC training and he knows damn well what the protocol / rules are.

    Don’t let him yank your chain.

    Quote two:

    “I am looking for guidance to protect myself and my Brothers. I wave at all bikes on the open highway when I am riding. I have waved at other members of MCs. Sometimes they wave back, other times they don’t. If I don’t wave, is that a sign of disrespect? Heck, am I being disrespected if they don’t return the gesture? Might seem like a dumb question, but I know even small slights can quickly get blown out of proportion and people can get hurt.”

    Is this guy for real?

    He’s been riding for 30 years and asking this shit? All of his cop brothers have also more than likely been to the Koz and Ciccone show. Where was in last? Kansas City? Hell it might even be one of them posing as ol Quagmire.

    Some of what he wrote makes sense but I still think he’s stroking everyone.

    Viva Los Vagos

  211. longhaul Says:

    I would let that friend hang with whoever he wanted and not put my nose where it didn’t belong. No disrespect to you but what really gives you the right to decide what a friend does or who he rides with. Sounds like the actions of a control freak jealous that the new kids on the playground might take your friend away. I don’t especially care for the IOMC myself but it sounds like it was more about you and not so much about the IO.

    If you continuously did things to your friend that he should have called the cops then maybe you shouldn’t call him your friend at all. I don’t know how people act where you’re from but where I’m from people respect and support their friends they don’t harass them or spend endless hours messing with them. If you are an example of his other friends then maybe that was why he was looking for others. I don’t think a man becomes a punk just because he joins some group he is already a punk or he isn’t. Was your interference in his journey because you dislike the IOMC, was it because you have no other friends and were afraid he would leave you or was it just because you think your choice for their life is more important than their own.

    It sounds like you are pretty proud of yourself for controlling your friends life. and if I read that right somehow you made your as you say loyal friend appear disloyal. That would be very messed up and if you were my friend I would get as far away from you as I could. Friends just don’t do that to other friends. You sound proud of yourself almost in a bragging way. You sound like one very messed up individual.

    Regardless of my feelings towards the IOMC if a friend of mine felt he fit in with them I may disagree but I would not involve myself with his choice or cause him problems in his life just because I didn’t agree with his choice in clubs and frankly I don’t think there are many people who would mess with a friend’s life like that. I am grateful you are not in my pool of friends. After he kicks your ass I hope he is smart enough to end such a so called friendship. You need help guy.

  212. Glenn S. Says:

    My experience is that the patchholders of well known clubs have treated me with courtesy and respect when I treat them with courtesy and respect. They have ignored me and stayed out of my business when I have ignored them and stayed out of theirs. I’m pretty sure that if I was discourteous or disrespectful I’d be treated similarly, but I’ve never seen a need to do so. Cops, on the other hand, will not return the courtesy of staying out of my business when I stay out of theirs, nor will courtesy and respect assure the same from them. There have been times in my life when their sole reason for existing was to put me and people like me in cages for years. I stay out of their world, and wish they’d return the favor.

  213. ToSlick Says:

    Glenn S

    I absolutely agree with you. Well said I too wish they would just stay out of our world and stop talking about what hardcore bikers they are when in fact they will never know what it feels like to be a hardcore biker because their on duty cop buddies treat they a lot better than they treat a “hardcore biker”


    I will be nice even though I want to bump your head against the wall. I never tried to control him, I was only looking out for his best interest as friends do. I was in the Midwest for a while working a job and that is where I first heard about the IO. Not just on the internet but out on the road also. I would listen to how other bikers talked about the IO after a group of them would leave a place. The best way to learn about a group is by keeping your ears open to the talk around you. I know as fact that there are places they are left alone just because everyone knows the protection of cops are on their side but yet they call themselves hardcore bikers. Not a chance, they don’t even come close. They are Hollywood bikers playing dressup in a world they still know very little about.

    They talk so loudly about brotherhood but if you pay attention to the shit happening involving the IO around the country that whole brotherhood thing falls apart also. Brotherhood is a solid bond among the MC world from what I’ve learned over the years, with a real brotherhood a brother will always have your back, look out for you, protect you and in some cases even take a bullet for you. A true brotherhood is where brothers bleed together. That is not the IOMC, pay attention to what goes on all over the US with the IO and seeing they have no true brotherhood is not complicated.

    Now a longtime friend of yours who has always had your back, who has bled with you and been there for you at all cost meets a group of guys that claim a brotherhood but it doesn’t hold water like your friend thinks it does. His idea and their idea of brotherhood just isn’t the same. Wouldn’t you want to protect him from that. Knowing as soon as your friend joins that group he will lose the respect of friends he’s had for a lifetime, wouldn’t you want to keep him from that mistake at all cost. Well that’s exactly what was happening and his head was so far in the clouds no matter what we told him it was just blown off and friends were already starting to disrespect him and he just walked away from them. I came to the plate to open his eyes. Wouldn’t you do that for a friend, wouldn’t you go the distance to protect him longhaul? I did and even though he doesn’t see why I did it right now he will someday and I will be there.

    Because IO is basically a internet MC I took a shot to save him from himself, it took a while and I almost gave up on it when it paid off even better than I thought. I confirmed for myself that the IO brotherhood is a joke. The IOMC is very predictable if a guy takes time to research them. How many MC’s hang out on the internet worried about what is said about them. They do, I knew it, I felt it and I proved it, they have been played like a fiddle by a real hardcore biker. I hope they feel foolish and know how predictable they are. The IO are just Hollywood bikers and will always be a internet club and they will never get respect in the biker world, they will never have a clue. Hardcore bikers protect their friends at all cost if they are part of a MC or not. It is our code of honor the IO will never have that and they should give up trying to be something they are not.

  214. longhaul Says:


    It is very obvious that you have issues with the IO and you screwed with a friend because he didn’t share the same thoughts with you about the club. I heard what you said but I don’t get your reasoning behind the interference of a friend’s life. Have you thought about a hobby to take up some of that spare time rather than screwing with a friend. Just asking.

    I tried to put it all together and best I can figure is you couldn’t take the man away from the club but you were able to take the club away from the man. Do I have that right. If so then I bet you hurt your friend more than the club. Do you really think they will give it a thought that you may or may not have gotten one over on them. I doubt they will even give it a thought. You seem pretty proud of yourself for giving the club a jab but I don’t think it matters to them at all.

    So we are back to your friend should be able to hang with whomever he wishes to without your involvement. Saying you were protecting him is only a copout for your lack of support for him. Not really sure I get it at all and I am just glad you are not my friend.

  215. Quagmire Says:

    Full of shit? No. Dumb? Well, yeah, I guess I am. Yep, been on bikes 30 yrs. Never really thought about Clubs and all that till joining the LEMC. So now I am on a quest for knowledge. If I knew the protocols I would not ask such a silly question as waving or not waving. From what I am gathering, respect can basically be given by ignoring.
    Most of the gang id classes I have attended are always on your basic white boys playing black and latino gangs. Not many 1% Clubs out here in my area. A few puppet clubs but that’s about it. As far as the Koz and Ciccone show, not sure what that is. From looking around on this sight, I gather Ciccone is a fed who has crawled up the asses of the MCs. Sorry, until now, I never heard of him. I’m not yanking anyone’s chains. I have a question, I ask. I found this site and thought it would be a great place to find those answers. Hell, tell me a site where these “protocols” are listed and I won’t ask dumb questions! Thanks!

  216. Glenn S. Says:

    Friends don’t let friends hang out with cops.

  217. Quagmire Says:

    Not asking to be anyone’s friend. Maybe just mutual respect. Or even just mutual ignoring of each other. I’ll ride with my LEMC, you ride with your MC. There is plenty of room on the road for both of us. And if you lay your bike down, I’m still going to stop and help you. I won’t give a shit what Colors you’re flying.

  218. Glenn S. Says:

    Quagmire, I’m gonna jump in here for just a second, with the disclaimer that I am not a member of a club, with two questions: 1. If a LEMC witnesses a violation of one of the plethora of laws nobody can reasonably keep up with, what do the members do? Will the members dress like outlaws and then arrest some poor guy who happens to think he’s among friends and lights a joint? Will he report snippets of overheard conversation through LEO channels? If so, is the LEMC not a de facto undercover police operation? 2. What is a puppet club?

  219. Glenn S. Says:

    To rephrase question #2: Does the fact that you define support clubs as puppet clubs seem respectful to you?

  220. jrnr Says:

    i vote for mutual ignoring

    no respects


  221. 10Gauge Says:


    I don’t know why you feel you need to change your name from 12g and then talk about yourself…but this aint my first rodeo….give it a rest you are embarassing yourself and being disrespectful.

  222. Quagmire Says:

    Glen, anyone hanging out with us is going to know that we are a LEMC. I would hope the idiot would not toke up in front of us! I have friends, and family, that smoke marijuana. I think they are dumbasses, but its their choice. Do I build a case against them? Hell no. Members of my LEMC would not arrest him, but would not let him do it in their presence either. Snippets of info? We aren’t a 1% Club. We don’t want to be, and never claim to be. We are a well known LEMC, honestly, who is going to say shit around us that concerns illegal activity? I belong to this club for a sense of brotherhood I cannot find with rank and file cops. I belong to ride with those brothers. I am proud to wear my Colors and stand with my Brothers. I truly feel a kinship with those that I ride with, much more than just those cops I work with. I did not join the LEMC so I can dig up dirt on other MCs! I joined to get away from work, not add to it! It’s a JOB, not a way of life. I don’t live to make arrests. I pay my mortgage and feed my family this way.
    Ok, so puppet club is disrepectful. Check. See? Learning is taking place. You won’t see me saying that again. I do have to say, MC members are a sensitive bunch…
    Glen, as much as you may hate me and/or my job, I do appreciate the dialogue. jmr…I’ll accept the mutual ignoring. No respect recieved, none given.

  223. ToSlick Says:

    I explained it to you the best I could. When a friend starts ignoring the people who have always been there for him and acts like it doesn’t matter what they think. I would do whatever it takes to change direction on him.

    I have posted under a few names and change it when a better one comes to mind. You have no idea what has gone on or the lengths I’ve gone to because my longtime friend started thinking he was better than us and forgot everything we’ve been through over the years. You haven’t a clue how good it feels showing him that he’s not better than us, showing him that his friends deserved more respect than a disrespected club and we wouldn’t just lay down like dogs while he treated us like that. You have no idea how great it feels proving to him that Hollywood bikers have no honor. Think what you will but I deserve a pat on the back for what I did and the only disrespect meant is towards the IOMC. No one ever has to ask what others think of the IO if we start at the begining of this site we can read comment after comment what we all think of the IO I think my point was made.

  224. Chesty Says:


    I’m going to preface this by saying that I do not speak for any club and have known 1 guy in my life that was a cop and a biker, he was truly one in a million and an exception from the normal. He was a hell of a guy that I was proud to have called a friend. I have also been beaten in a parking lot by uniforms with a member of a club that was also my friend. My cop friend and those 3 uniforms that beat us were in the same department. He told me ahead of time about the handful of guys in his department that had a hard on for cracking our skulls and to watch my back. So I know that even within the same command there are good and bad. I’m not gonna attach you personally but I will say that in my opinion if you are a stand up guy like you say and a cop you are definitely in the minority.

    But my question is why do you feel the need for a patch? Like I said, I’m not a club member but I have been around many. I have my close group of friends that I ride with, our group is as loyal to each other as you will find. But we don’t call ourselves a club or wear colors because we know who the top clubs in the city are and we have no desire to disrespect them. We have been welcomed into their clubhouses with open arms and are treated with the same respect we treat them with. I don’t wear my support gear from the original club I hung around with before I moved here because that’s disrespectful. Why do a group of law enforcement guys need to claim a territory and emulate a real 1% club? You say that you want to learn how to respect the other MC’s around then you shouldn’t have put that patch on in the first place because that was disrespectful. If you and your LEO buddies want to get together and go for a ride then do it. If you want to meet at the same bar every week and call that home then do it. But why try and portray yourselves as the guys that 99.9% of you peers harass? Do you fold up a blue or red bandana in your back pocket and walk around with your pants sagging after work like the Bloods and Crips? If it’s just a motorcycle comraderie thing for you and being a cop is just a job then why should anybody care if they light up a joint in your presence? If it’s just a job and doesn’t define you away from work then you should have left that power trip at the door when your shift ended.

  225. ToSlick Says:


    What an awesome point and very well said. I ride with a group of guys and we are just out there to ride and enjoy life. We give respect to the patch holders around us and mind our own business, they have always treated us well and we give them no reason not to. The group of guys I ride with have always been there for each other and we have been just fine and able to ride freely without any trouble so at our age why should any of that change now. It has been about riding together and having fun. And that is the point I’ve tried to make.
    One of us up and decided he wanted to be a patch holder in the IO and wouldn’t listen to any of us how disrespectful that would be to the clubs around us. When he started showing us disrespect and thinking he was better than us I had to shut him down and remind him who his real friends were. He is flopping around in the dirt right now but we will be here when he needs us. So what you said hits very close to home, a group of guys can ride without causing trouble or trying to claim anything. Just ride and enjoy life.

  226. observer Says:

    Quagmire says: “I do have to say, MC members are a sensitive bunch…” Kinda funny, and obviously true just from reading the postings here. That said, cops make 13 year old girls seem thick skinned.

  227. BigV Says:

    Just wait till you get a load of the Defiant Crew LEMC, which splintered off from the dysfunctional IOLEMC.

  228. ToSlick Says:


    That’s just F******* great, another one. Do they also claim to be who they say they are….Hardcore Bikers, what a joke.

  229. Quagmire Says:

    Chesty, you do bring up some great points about just riding with your friends and staying out of the fray. Honestly, I did not understand that wearing a patch on one’s back could ever be considered as disrespect when I joined my LEMC. It’s truly sad that it is. But I am in it, love it, and would never quit it now. Yes, sadly, your friend is a minority in my line of work. Believe me or not, I’ve never whacked anyone that wasn’t trying to whack me first. And I am certainly on no power trip. I truly don’t give a shit what people do in their own homes. If they want to smoke pot, do it there. But at least respect me enough not to do it front of me. I don’t write the laws. If I did it would be legal. Alcohol has caused me more headaches on duty than pot. Much easier to arrest a guy who just smoked a joint than the guy who just drank a 5th of Jack! Alot less fights! And yes observer, just like bikers, there are those cops that are overly sensitive. Some people want to jump up and fight over a word or dirty look. I don’t get it. I have always said, if you don’t sign my paycheck or are a person I love, I don’t give a shit what you think about me. I guess I might not be the typical cop. Could be cuz I am close to retirement and am tired of the BS…
    I do want to thank all of you for giving me a bit of an education. Still have not answered my wave or not wave question…

  230. Grumbler Says:

    Here in southwest ID, to the best of my knowledge, are one unisex LERC, one unisex LEMC, and one LE/FF MC. All wear 3 piece patch. I just ignore them as if they’re wearing SOA soft colors.

    They’re all fake clubs AFAIC, and not worth one iota of my time in the real world. They should wear a big fuckin’ badge on their backs instead of pretending to be something they’re not.

    Brother Clubs or Support Clubs should never, ever be referred to as Puppet Clubs or Bitch Clubs. All *real* MCs, regardless of whether they’ve 1-2-3 patches, are to be respected.

    I just wanna ride my machine without being hassled by the man.

  231. BadMagic Says:


    Wave or don’t. Do what you want. I don’t care either way. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t.

    Why would you ask for distinctions in protocol / respect, and then when offered them, label those that offered as ‘sensitive’? Seems rhetorical.

    “Honestly, I did not understand that wearing a patch on one’s back could ever be considered as disrespect when I joined my LEMC. It’s truly sad that it is.”


    How would you feel if someone impersonated an officer?


  232. Caretaker Says:

    You seem like a decent guy (too bad you’re in the minority in your line of work) so let me attempt to answer your question… I follow the “you-first” rule… If I don’t know you,i don’t wave unless you do first. And even then I probably won’t wave because I prefer to hold on with both hands. I,and most of my brothers,stick with a simple nod as we ride past.

    Hope that helps,
    Caretaker (1%er)

  233. Stroker Says:

    to Quagmire and any other LEO “MC” members reading this thread:

    Quag… come across respectful, I’ll try to respond in kind.
    First time I saw the wild pigs “mc” form up, I asked myself: “why
    are they doing this?” Why would a group of LEOs form a 3 piece patch club? IMHO, it’s basically a “fuck you” to the already established MCs.
    It’s all about slapping the older outlaw MCs in the face with the
    attitude that LEO clubs can fly a 3-piece too, and if you don’t like
    it, “whaddya gonna do about it?”! That’s how I see this shit….
    LEO 3 pc clubs are not all about “brotherhood”, they’re about rubbing
    their 3 pieces in true outlaw motorcycle club’s faces. I’m sorry
    Quagmire, but if your club is a 3 pc patch club, all you’re doing
    by belonging, is stirring the pot. The allure of our mc world is strong,
    I know that. Just witness the turnabout the Motor Co. made when Wille G.
    took hold back in the 80’s. Before he came on the scene, Harley did
    everything they could to distance themselves from the outlaw image.
    When Wille G. came along, he realized the outlaw image was a draw!
    Now Harley has skulls literally dripping off all their shit! Same-same
    with riders out there who either won’t or can’t make it with the older
    established clubs…..just form yer own! Yeah, that’ll work….!
    And I see clubs start up, make noise for a year or so, then you look
    around and they’re gone! Pop-Up clubs we call ‘em. All made up of
    people who wouldn’t begin to make it in a real MC. So Quagmire, good
    luck to you and yours. If you’re flying a 3 piece patch, just know that
    to those of us who’ve been around awhile, you look silly. Struttin’
    your stuff like you’re some bad-ass outlaw, or maybe you think you’re
    the romantic image of the modern day biker, only now you’ve got a
    patch on your back, and dammit, you ARE SOMEBODY! Well, get down with
    your bad self. But when you see me, or some other old scooter tramp
    lookin’ at you with a half smile on our face, just know, we gotcha
    pegged dude, and no matter how you hang your cut, until you’ve kept
    it for 10 years or more, you don’t rate with us. Ya see, we figger
    you’ll be gone tomorrow.

  234. Grumbler Says:

    Great resource for motorcycle waving questions;

  235. whitefxrp Says:

    I’m not sure how it is in the USA,but here in the UK,if you sign up to the Army,Navy,Air force or cops,you swear an oath to the Queen and country to uphold the laws.There are many MC and other clubs here with “servicemen” retired or serving in their ranks,but the line seems to be, “powers of arrest”, here that applies to all servicemen while “in the job” and while i appreciate most soldiers,sailors and airmen don’t arrest people,they can,if you piss them off enough,look at Northern Ireland,our troops were policemen,look at Afghanistan our (yours as well)troops are policemen,makes me wonder why the increase of “military MCs” are on the up in Europe,is it because the traditional clubs are starting to restrict the entry of “servicemen” not just LEO’s,just in case ?

  236. RVN69 Says:

    Grumbler Says:”I just wanna ride my machine without being hassled by the man.” A paraphrase from Heavenly Blues in the Wild Angels. “We just want to be free, to be free to ride our machines without being hasseled by the man” during the funeral scene in the little chapel.

    My Question to Quagmire and others like him is why if you just want to be “yourselves” do you copy us? Especially why do nearly all LEMC’s wear a diamond patch on the front of their colors? Everyone knows or should know that a Diamond patch is a 1% symbol, yet you guys insist on wearing it knowing it is disrepectful. Your going to do what ever it is your going to do, but no matter what that is, you will never be my brother, or my friend. You can never ever trust a cop.

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare

  237. ToSlick Says:

    I began riding in the late 80’s and I just don’t recall cops getting bikes trying to be something they’re not. Sure they may have been out there in groups riding but I just don’t recall them putting a patch on their backs thinking they were living the biker life. Nor do I recall any group of guys just slapping a patch on their back without having to back it up. Being a biker is a way of life, not a life style. It’s just not respectful to through a patch on to create your club knowing that you will never have to back it up because you live under the protection of the law. Your actions show the world that you’re not part of the biker way because 911 replaces a good toe to toe like men. It just isn’t what it used to be.

  238. Quagmire Says:

    Gentlemen, I thank you for your comments. You have taught me, maybe not convinced me, but you have taught me. I never set out to be anyone’s friend or brother on here. Just for an education. You all want to be measured as men. Just as I do. I never expect you to trust a cop. If I was in your shoes, I would not either. Can’t say I would trust a 1%er either. You never will believe cops will give you respect, and you know you will never give a cop respect. So we might be at an impasse here. I will fly my Colors as you will fly yours. And when I pass you I will wave. I am just friendly like that. And when I come across you and you give me that half smile, I know you will be thinking I am joke. At least I made you smile. And if you are so deeply offended by my presence and bring on a fight, I will go toe to toe. Always have. Always will. And if you are broken down on the road, I will stop and offer you whatever assistance I can. Stay safe, have a long and happy life, and avoid the “man”. I’ll do the same.

  239. Shyster Says:


    That was well said indeed!


  240. Goldsboro Williams Says:

    Observer says: “That said, cops make 13 year old girls seem thick skinned.”

    So sad, but so true.

  241. BadMagic Says:

    Quag, You still haven’t answered my impersonation question.


  242. Grumbler Says:

    Yet another example of cop douchebaggery against a real MC and the First Amendment. NFW they’d pull this shit onna coddled LEMC. At least the judge is allowing the lawsuit to go forward.

    “They checked all their licenses and registrations and then came out and gave a speech that went something like this: ‘Take your jackets off, the jackets that had the logos or colors of their club, because the only colors allowed on this highway are the blue and gold of New Jersey state troopers.’”

  243. ToSlick Says:

    Very well said

  244. ToSlick Says:

    Does anyone know of any biker friendly bars around the Scotsdale Arizona area. I will be heading that direction next week.

  245. sherides Says:

    I hope the Bikers prevail on this one.

    What a bunch of unnecessary nonsense.

    I’ve seen “No Colors” signs posted before – just never on any highways.

  246. IrishDragon Says:

    Then we should just start riding around naked. Definitely the ladies out there.


  247. Quagmire Says:

    ToSlick, I apologize for not answering your question earlier, had shit to do and had not checked on here. Anyone caught impersonating an officer would be arrested and charged. I know where you are going to go with this, LEMCs impersonate bikers and nothing happens. That is true. But wearing Colors and riding in a group is not against the law. And the truth is, no matter how it angers anyone on here, is that we live in a nation of laws which are made by the majority consensus of the citizens. The police are tasked to enforce those laws. We are a law police, not a right and wrong police. That’s just the way it is. You can complain and insult and stomp your feet that that is not right, but it will change nothing. It’s like a bitching that it’s raining outside, it won’t change a thing. If MCs had somehow copyrighted the 3pc patch, and had ownership of it, the LEMCs would never have a 3pc. They will follow the law. But telling a LEMC that it cannot wear a 3pc patch is like telling a black cop he can’t wear gold chains, turn his hat sideways, and wear droopy drawers.
    Let me weigh in on the New Jersey BS. And that is what it is…BS. The Constitution says we can assemble, and it does not dictate how we can dress. I think the NJSP have way overstepped their bounds and I hope the Pagans win their lawsuit. I was against the feds attempting to strip the Mongols of their Colors. It was wrong and unconstitutional. Based on my experience with troopers, they are dicks. They are not cops, they are troopers. There is a difference. But if you agree with me (I don’t expect many to admit it if they do!) and think that NJSP should not be allowed to prevent MCs from flying Colors, then you have to agree, that I too, as a citizen, have the same rights as you and should be allowed to fly my LEMC Colors.

  248. observer Says:

    I would think the embarrassment of “fly(ing) my LEMC Colors” would be punishment enough.

  249. sled tramp Says:

    “Then we should just start riding around naked.”


    If you really want to see total,suppressive,possibly lethal to protect the public good,absolute lockdown police action……let me start riding around naked.
    Trust me…action would come MUY pronto….

  250. DesertH-D Says:

    Quagmire, you succinctly expressed exactly why you’re a cop, and why you don’t “get it”. You look only to the “law” to form your view of right and wrong…

    BTW – Why doesn’t an LEMC create it’s own image, it’s own type of design for something to where? Why do they copy 1%ers? To quote an LEMC website: “We wear a 3-piece patch BECAUSE WE CAN.” Pretty much says it all.

  251. AVAGOVFFV Says:

    “To quote an LEMC website: We wear a 3-piece patch BECAUSE WE CAN. Pretty much says it all.”

    I hate cops and feds because I can! Fuck’em all.

    Just Like Dad says a turd is a turd it can dress up anyway it wants but it will remain a turd. Oh and the old saying that being copied is the best form of flattery still holds truth when it comes to piggies playing Outlaws.

    Viva Los Vagos

  252. Goldsboro Williams Says:


    What you don’t seem to grasp is the disdain that others hold for LEO clubs that emulate 1% clubs.

    As an LEO club, you don’t live by your own or your club’s rules. You have to abide by not only societies rules, but your department rules and regs as well.

    You cannot truly be a brother to other members of your club, or other clubs, because you will be required to screw them over if they attempt to live their lives in the manner that they choose.

    This is why LEO clubs wearing such patches annoy people. They are simply pretending to be something they are not. So why then do they wear such patches? Simple. It is advertisement that they can do what they want, with impunity. How many cops are going to stop and hassle bikers that are flying cop colors? How many people are going to put up with crap from your club, just because you are wearing colors that advertise the fact that you are armed and have the legal authority to put them in jail?

    The simple fact is that wearing LEO colors is the equivalent of wearing a patch of a Fasces on your back. It represents the right of the state to oppress and punish the citizens.

    This is not to say that you cannot wear a patch, as this is America. But you cannot expect people to accept you if you do.

    Just a thought.


    IrishDragon and Sledtramp: Nice visual imagery. If I dream of naked old men riding bikes now I will blame you.

  253. ToSlick Says:

    Goldsboro Williams

    Well said, you laid it out very well.

  254. ToSlick Says:

    So you have this MC that puts a patch on their backs and claim to have a brotherhood that they have no understanding about what a true brotherhood in the motorcycle world really is. Then they brain wash men into thinking they are a real MC with a real brotherhood. I will make my point short. To be a member of this real MC and part of this real brotherhood you can NOT have a felony. Now let’s just say you are in a MC calling men brothers for a year or two and you get yourself into trouble and find yourself with a felony. Use your heads gentlemen, you could no longer be part of that so called brotherhood. I rest my case, with a real brotherhood you would die for a brother if it came down to it. So LEMC or any such MC’s will never have a true brotherhood or the respect given to one so again, why try to be something you know nothing about. Why play dress up trying to come across as someone you will never be. Show respect and stop taking every one for fools.

  255. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    “But telling a LEMC that it cannot wear a 3pc patch is like telling a black cop he can’t wear gold chains, turn his hat sideways, and wear droopy drawers.”

    Hi, just a question!

    YYZ Skinhead

  256. Quagmire Says:

    Goldsboro, you make valid points that cannot be argued with as far as how far our brotherhood can go. We are a club that abides by the law. We are bound to it and have swore to it. And yes we would shun a brother that would go against it. And in your MC world you’re brother is your brother, right or wrong. I get that. But if your brother harms the innocent? Hurts those non-deserving? Do you still stand with him? That I could not do. If that is your definition of Brotherhood, well, that is something I would not want to be a part of. I believe in doing good when you can. Help those in need. And yes, protect the innocent. People who steal from those who work for a living, people who harm the innocent, no, they do not get my respect. They get my disdain. Respect must be earned. It is simply not given. I will respect all who give me respect. Each man must earn his own respect. It cannot be given simply because he belongs to the biggest or baddest MC. That is not respect, that is intimidation. Is he to get respect for his back patch because all the shit he had to endure to get it? I took alot of shit in basic training. I took alot of shit in the police academy. I have taken alot of shit in over 23 years on the job. I have had my ass kicked plenty of times, and I have kicked my share of ass. So, am I supposet to automatically get respect for that? Of course not. I have to earn from each individual I meet. Show respect? Earn it first. MCs are so demanding of “respect” but so unwilling to give it.

  257. Caretaker Says:

    Right or wrong he will alwaybe my brother… That means no matter what he does,i’ll stand behind him… Does your club do thst? Probably not. We support our brothers no matter what… Can you say the same? I doubt it…

  258. Goldsboro Williams Says:


    It’s not “my motorcycle world,” but it is my ethos. First of all, I partially understand where you are coming from. I spent the majority of my adult life in law enforcement (I was drunk and got into the wrong line at the Civil Service Building).

    I have no problem with you protecting people from human predators. I do have a problem with the hypocrisy that a lot of LEO’s put forth though. They claim not to support each other (no blue line, so to speak), but unless you are a cop in Mayberry you have to. Cops stick by each other (except for the admin weenies) and unless they are thrown into a media spotlight, they usually stick by their friends. At that point the limits to their ‘friendships’ show, and they start throwing each other under the bus.

    A lot of club members, in comparison, recognize that their ‘brothers’ are human. Humans make mistakes, and unless you want to be a pariah or friendless, you have to learn to accept that everyone is fallible. Then you are either loyal to your friends, or you are not (and therefore not worthy of being a friend). I for one could never trash someone’s life because they made a dumb mistake, nor could I turn my back on a friend. I know plenty of cops that would, even though they have done the same things or worse in the past. That is the hypocrisy that I cannot stand.

    This same attitude is what makes the LEO club thing bothersome. A lot of LEO’s pretend to be morally or ethically ‘better’ than the bikers that they emulate, but they then fall into one of two categories. They are either totally living a lie by pretending to be a biker (one who would support his brother) when in truth they have no loyalty to each other, and only to the law; or they are truly just a 1%, except that they are using their badge to live that lifestyle. All of the fun, and none of the danger.

    If life has taught me one thing, it is that friends are a special commodity. I have friends that I value more than blood relatives. If my friend needed me to stick by him, I would. That is why I am very picky as to who I give my allegiance to.

    Well, I am retired now, so I no longer have to think about those things. Suffice it to say that although I don’t ride with a patch, I do ride with my friends. And yes, I will be loyal to them, no matter what. And no, I don’t pretend to be something that I am not.

    I look at cops the same way I do firemen, soldiers, sailors, bartenders and milkmen… They do a necessary job, which entitles them to a modicum of respect, but it is their individual character and actions that will ultimately determine whether or not they will really earn my respect.

    I think you should reconsider, but hey, I’m just a guy reading your thoughts over the airwaves.


  259. IrishDragon Says:

    Sled Tramp,

    I totally agree with you. I was just mocking those bitch ass troopers and all the prentdaclub lemc’s out there.

    Goldsboro Williams,

    Sorry for the horrible visual.

    LEMC members,

    Cut the bullshit out you dickless wannabees. If you wanna play biker, go up to a real MC without your badges and prove yourselves. Otherwise go back to your circle jerking parties and leave the real men alone.


  260. Shyster Says:

    The LE MC’s despise 1% MC’s yet they mimic them. I will never understand that. I despise child molesters. So it necessarily follows that I have absolutely no interest in molesting kids.

    Why can’t the cop clubs see their hypocrisy. They get butt hurt and start hiring legal counsel when their departments and cop cronies shun them. Yet when they are on the job and they see a real patch fly by, well fuck the Constitution, let’s go jam that mother fucker up.

    I have nothing but contempt for pigs. Happy Easter.


  261. Quagmire Says:

    Goldsboro, that is all I ask, to be judged by individual character and actions. Not by the way I pay my bills. I have been very repectful of other opinions on this format. And I do my best to adhere to the Constitution. I am sure I have made mistakes, especially in my younger days, as young hot heads often do. I have mellowed with age.
    Just because we wear a 3pc, my LEMC certainly does not mimic a 1%MC. Though we wear a state rocker, is only signifies where we are from, we claim no terrritory. It’s not ours to claim, it just shows where we are from. We aren’t out in the bars fighting with anyone we feel that disrespect from, we abide by the laws, we are friendly bunch. No, there is no imitation of 1%ers. I accept Shyster, that you see us as hypocrisy. We see it from another. Not many truths in this world, just different points of views. Your contempt for police was no doubt formed by your experiences with them. Unfortunate. And Happy Easter to you too.

  262. sled tramp Says:

    Sorry for the image,fortunately,I live in a very rural area and since the “incident” am not allowed around farm animals nor to walk around sans clothing.I thought as a former L.E. you’d like the following story…
    Many many years ago,across from my house,a crazy woman rented an apartment.She had the annoying habit of running out into traffic screaming and trying to do herself in.Multiple 51/50’s later,she was still allowed to stay at the apartments.Finally, she went out to bullfight the A/C transit buses.My neighbor called the cops and said there was a womn trying to commit suicide..Waited….waited…..a half hour went by,no cops,she went inside.
    A few minutes later,she emerged stark naked.After an appropriate amount of time to fully ascertain the situation,determine she was in fact naked and in need,my neighbor called 911 again.This time he said there was a beautiful naked woman in the street.2 minutes later.
    8 units,three motors and the DOG unit hit our street.
    Uh huh… next time someone needs help,ya know what to do.

  263. RVN69 Says:

    Sled Tramp,
    I used to live not far from a state mental institution, occasionally one of the women who resided there would decide to direct traffic at a large intersection. This she did naked, 300lbs naked, no one obeyed her directions, but she sure got everyones attention. Those visuals still frighten me.

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare

  264. ToSlick Says:

    A cop club is a cop club and can never have a true brotherhood with men who are not cops. Call a pile of horse shit what it is and stop trying to call it a brotherhood.

  265. Quagmire Says:

    No, it’s a Brotherhood. Maybe it just does not fit your definition. ToSlick, I understand that you would stand by your brother right or wrong. Is that true? I believe that you would stand by him if he did “wrong”, but what if he really did “right”? What if your Brother, say, found God. What if he no longer wished to party hard, and live the lifestyle. What if he began doing community work, and even started preaching to those that would listen? What if he began to work on you to get you to change your erring ways? What if he wanted to be, God forbid, a police officer? Would you stand by him then? Whould he be your Brother still? Or would he be shunned and drummed out of the MC?

  266. JIM666 Says:

    Quagmire Says: What if he wanted to be, God forbid, a police officer? Would you stand by him then? {Whould} he be your Brother still? Or would he be shunned and drummed out of the MC?
    I might just have an answer to this question,,,1st a real brother would never want to be a cop, and we all know what happens to snitches,
    A true brother will stand by his club and club brothers just as I will
    and the thought of being a lying backstabbing worthless feeding off the taxpayers then locking up the very people that feed you would never “NEVER” cross his mind,unless lets say for some reason he got brain damage, so that should answer your question, “My Brother is my Brother No matter what,” that says rite or wrong we stand together, that`s not hard to do knowing that my brothers are the best people i`ve ever met in my life, if I need something and they have it it,s mine and vice verse, you said something about doing rite and wrong, i`ve never seen any of my brothers do wrong, I really cant say that about 90% of the cops i`ve met,that alone should speak volumes, by the way, there is no “h” in would, as far as respect, you have mine for serving in the military not for being a cop but for serving thank you for your service Damn shame you screwed up by being a cop, anyway that`s my .02 on your question,

  267. Caretaker Says:

    Couldn’t have said it better myself.


  268. Quagmire Says:

    So JIM, you would stand by him then and still consider him a Brother even though he decided to walk another path different from the MC? I did not quite understand your answer. To make it easier, let’s take out the “be a cop” comment(that was my attempt at humor) and say he wanted to be a preacher, teacher, or nurse or something.
    Yes, you are right, there is no H in would. I type too fast sometimes and fail to proofread.
    Another question, and thank you all for putting up with my questions, when you say SUPPORT YOU LOCAL 1% MC, what does an individual or community get in return for supporting the local 1% MC? I am aware of toy drives around Xmas for kids held by 1%MCs. Is there anything else a community would get for their support? A reduction in crime rate? And why I say that, I remember watching an interview with residents in NYC that lived in a predominantly Italian-American neighborhood that has a strong Mafia presence. The people actually wanted the Mafia’s presence as they offered protection. True protection. The Mafiosos would not tolerate a drug dealer or burglar in their area around their families and took steps only a cop could dream of to keep the neighborhood safe from crime. Do the 1%MCs do this? And before I am accused of antagonizing, let me say, I am not. I am attempting to learn from those that actually know.
    I do appreciate the respect given to vets by the MCs. As far as being a cop, I actually just wanted to be a history teacher, but sadly was born poor white trash who doesn’t qualify for any government help in going to college. Cop job came open when I got out of the service. Pay looked good, benefits were good. Had a wife and kid to feed. Gotta do what you gotta do to feed your family.

  269. Glenn S. Says:

    I went to visit my mother one night, and chained my bike to one of the support poles of her carport (that kind of neighborhood, and the living room is on the far end of the house). Awhile later, one of her neighbors knocked on the door and told me there were some people, walking, trying to roll my bike off, but left when the chain stopped them. He said he had called the cops. I told him to wait for the cops and tell them it was a mistake. I took off after whoever it was messed with my bike. didn’t find them, maybe they heard the bike and hid.

    Cops never came. But about three days later, they did come to the guy’s house that had called them. They came to ticket and fine the guy because he had too many old cars parked in his front yard, in violation of some city ordinance.

  270. jrnr Says:

    @Glen S. says:

    Cops never came. But about three days later, they did come to the guy’s house that had called them. They came to ticket and fine the guy because he had too many old cars parked in his front yard, in violation of some city ordinance.

    What a perfect example of what the fucking cops really think about the very people that pay their salaries.


  271. Quagmire Says:

    Glenn, that is not the norm. Maybe in the big cities. Your smaller communities would not tolerate such indifference by their police departments. I know damn well who pays my salary and do my best, and demand the officers that work for me, do their best too.
    Any opinion to offer on my earlier questions?

  272. ToSlick Says:


    A few points to be made. It always falls back on the disrespect MC’s like yours show for trying to be something you’re not nor do you have any real understanding of the lifestyle you try to portray. A brotherhood is strong and true. A brotherhood like that can be shared even among men who ride together without starting an MC or naming their group. They can have a true brotherhood and still show respect to the MC’s by not trying to buck a system that is respected in our world. In our group we share such a brotherhood and we do not turn our backs on a brother who decides to walk another path. But we will do anything it takes to remind him who his brothers are, we will do anything it takes to remind him how as brothers we have always been there for one another and we would keep him from making a mistake we as brothers didn’t agree with at all cost. We would not let him get brainwashed into thinking someone or something is something they are not or will never be. Then if he couldn’t understand and walked away from us we would still know we did the right thing by saving a brother from a misguided illusion of brotherhood. Cops have always and will always turn their backs on someone they call brother if such a wrong is attempted. So cops or MC’s that allow cops will and never can have the understanding of true brotherhood. So just show some respect and stop trying to be something you will never be. Have your so called brotherhood but don’t put a patch on your back claiming you have the same brotherhood as a real MC has.

  273. Stroker Says:

    Dear Quaqmire…………

    I have to admit, it’s been entertaining, and somewhat enlightening to
    watch this thread, and your steadfast stance on who you think you and your club are. I give you credit for your attempt to justify your club to a pretty tough audience. Now, I’m not one to slam the whole law enforcement world. I recognize we need a police force. What we don’t need is a police force that abuses their authority, and steps on our freedoms because they can, and want to. I’m not saying that’s you. You seem to be a genuinely nice guy, perhaps you are. I mention the abuses because in our world they happen, and they happen with frightening regularity! You do know I’m sure, that many LEOs like nothing better than “standing up to” or taking down bikers. We are an affront to the sensibilities of many in the “straight” world, who would like nothing better than to see us all in jail. And those “straights” like nothing better than ordering LEOs to storm our gates and take us down! We look
    like we’re getting away with something, even when we’re standing in the grocery store check-out line. We must be up to something!
    So…the question remains: why do you guys want to look like us? Why do you want people to think you’re an outlaw biker club, when you’re not?! Why? Because you get a kick outta looking like an outlaw bike club. Then, when you have to, or want to, you can all pull your badges, or your guns, and SHOCK everyone! That’s all your club means to me I’m afraid….you guys are doing what you’re doing, because you know it offends the real clubs, because it IS America, and you can, and it basically means an open challenge to the rest of us: “Whadareyagonnadoaboutit?” Your wearing the outlaw look is nothing more than a form of intimidation to the rest of us. It’s almost like you’re conducting a “sting” operation. If, let’s say your club happens to be at a run somewhere, and members of your group happen to see someone slip his brother a joint, I’m betting you have members who would phone the closest “on-duty” cop, and maybe with a nod indicate the two offenders, and bammo! Somebodys’ busted. And don’t try to tell me they don’t do it. I’ve seen it! Basically, your club is operating in our world undercover. Maybe you are a nice guy at heart. Maybe you personally wouldn’t do what I just described. But there are those that will, and have.
    Ya know, in the world of the creepy-crawlies, there is a little spider, that hangs out with the ants. He’s the same color, and even goes to the extent of putting two of his eight legs up against two others, so he looks like he has 6 legs. He then parties and trips with the ants, til he gets hungry, then snags an ususpecting ant, and goes off behind a bush and munches down. The ants never suspect a thing. That may work for you guys for a while, but in our world, the word will get out, and while your crew may look like us, may even act like us, you can never be us.

  274. sled tramp Says:

    Nailed it.

  275. ToSlick Says:

    You nailed it Stroker and they go beyond by pulling men into the circle so their reach will even go farther by turning friends against one another. How can we trust a friend who would run with a bunch of law dawgs not to become a snitch for the cops. the law dawgs claim to be hardcore bikers but truth is a biker doesn’t turn another biker in for smoking a joint. LEO’s may be able to do what they want but stop claiming to be hardcore bikers with the brotherhood of a real MC. If it smells like shit, then it really is shit. Stop shaking a man’s hand while you have a knife in his back with the other. That is NOT a brotherhood, stop trying to be something you’re not nor will you ever be. Can you get your hands around that?

  276. Quagmire Says:

    Thank you for your replies. For the record, we are not trying to portray ourselves as hardcore 1%ers. I have said that all along. I understand your attachment to the 3pc patch, but in today’s world, it is now becoming common for any motorcycle/riding club to use a 3pc. I think the 1% MC’s ownership of that symbol is waning. Right or wrong, times are changing. You have to admit, it is getting harder to live the outlaw lifestyle with today’s technology. My LEMC has been around now for over 10yrs. We are growing, I think we are here to stay.
    Maybe I am looking for a yes or no answer to my question on whether a brother is still a brother if he decides to walk a “straight” path. Maybe it’s not that simple of a question for such a simple answer. Yes, if a cop club member started breaking the law and doing drugs we would shun him. He would no longer be a brother. We would try to bring him back to the light. We’ve done it before. And I truly believe if a 1%MC brother started going “straight” you would do what you could to bring him back to the fold, and if that did not work, he would be shunned. You would not tolerate a cop in your ranks, we would not tolerate a 1%er in ours. We really are not that different, just different ends of the spectrum. And for the record, while I am off duty and with my LEMC, no, I would ignore the pot smoker. Not like he is hurting anyone but himself (I’m a health nut, don’t smoke). I am not at work, it’s none of my business. You guys really don’t get that fact that I am pretty well an 8 hour a day cop!
    Now, what about the question of suppprting your local 1% MC? What does one actually get for their support?

  277. rollinnorth Says:

    This whole thread reminds me why you don’t talk to cops. The cop will keep asking, poking, prodding. The cop knows the answer he wants to hear. It’s not a conversation, it’s an interrogation. Best not to start.

  278. ToSlick Says:


    By supporting the local 1% MC you are showing respect to that club for who they are and the brotherhood they have built. You can NOT get respect without showing respect and that is what the Cop clubs alike just don’t get. If you are a stand up guy I will show you respect during that 8 hour shift you are a cop because you are protecting those who need it. But we can NOT respect you when you put on that 3pc because you all expect respect as bikers just because you put it on, you have no understanding that kind of respect is earned. Let us say you have a few guys you have called friends for more than 10 years, you have shed blood together, you’ve been there for each other through thick and thin and then one guy from your small group starts down a path the rest of you don’t agree with, then this guy starts telling you how it doesn’t matter how you feel or what you think he has found a brotherhood in new friends but you knew that brotherhood was misguiding him. Would you shun him or would you be his true brother and bring him back to the light. LE friendly clubs can’t ever have a true brotherhood but yet they convince real bikers that they do. They turn friends against one another because they claim their brotherhood is real and send them in a false direction. Ride with your boys but why must you and LEO’s like yours have to act like you have the brotherhood of a real MC when in fact you can never have it. If your brother disagreed with you he would be shunned. In a real brotherhood, that brother would have some sense knocked into him but he would still be a brother. From what I’ve learned MC’s value a strong brotherhood and you miss the point that LEO’s or cop friendly MC’s can NEVER have a true brotherhood so therefore you portray something you are not.

  279. JIM666 Says:

    Quagmire Says: So JIM, you would stand by him then and still consider him a Brother even though he decided to walk another path different from the MC? I did not quite understand your answer. To make it easier, let’s take out the “be a cop” comment(that was my attempt at humor) and say he wanted to be a preacher, teacher, or nurse or something.
    Yes, you are right, there is no H in would. I type too fast sometimes and fail to proofread.
    Another question, and thank you all for putting up with my questions, when you say SUPPORT YOU LOCAL 1% MC, what does an individual or community get in return for supporting the local 1% MC? I am aware of toy drives around Xmas for kids held by 1%MCs. Is there anything else a community would get for their support? A reduction in crime rate? And why I say that, I remember watching an interview with residents in NYC that lived in a predominantly Italian-American neighborhood that has a strong Mafia presence. The people actually wanted the Mafia’s presence as they offered protection. True protection. The Mafiosos would not tolerate a drug dealer or burglar in their area around their families and took steps only a cop could dream of to keep the neighborhood safe from crime. Do the 1%MCs do this?
    Ok 1st of all what does the public get for there support, well sir you answered your own question, with the other question, Yes and I cant speak for all but most 1% clubs do patroll and keep clean the neighborhoods they are in ,for instance, where I live which is a small town there are no street gangs, and this is certenally not because of the “POLICE” It,s because we “my club” will not allow a bunch of punkass snotnosed kids running around terrorizing the citizens of our fine little community, the older people where our clubhouse is at 1st hated the noise of bikes comming and leaving all hours of the nite, but after a while realized that they could go out at nite to walk there dog or just go for a walk and would be as safe as in their own livingroom, I guess in a way they realized that they would trade a little peace and quite for being able to do things that before we moved in they were afraid to do , the lawn mowers started to stay in there sheds, the radios in their cars were there the next morning, nobody tagged their cars and or houses, I guess all in all they figured it was a good trade, now as far as a brother wanting to “see the light” that`s fine, it,s his choice,but a true brother will not try and push me into what he beleaves, really Ive never had that senerio happen so i really cant say, but I would supposed as long as his club duties remained fulfilled that would be fine, I don`t tell anybody how to live hence I don`t want anybody telling me how to live,
    as long as club buisness remaned just that, I would see no problem actually a lot of clubs have ministers as members,they speak at funerals perform weddings, shit like that,I guess what everybody here is trying to say, is, your a cop we donot beleave in the system that you and your friends beleave in it dosnt work, we police our selves and our own and that seems to work very well till you boys in blue get involved then shit goes all haywire, we dont fuck w/ you when your driving down the road drinking a beer,when you bust your kids ass for doing something that he or she knows better than to do, when you drive a little faster than you should, when you smack some drunk for insulting your ol or daughter, and we dont want or need you guys fucking w/ us,were grown men in a mans world, we dont hide behind a badge, if shit happens we tcb,where your little boys in blue playing dressup as big bad bikers do hide behind that badge, if you look at all the cases against m/c`s most are based of some looser snitch lying and making up shit for a lot of money to screw up some upstanding club members life, and not just his, his kids, wife, bosses, or employees, what ever the case, , How about the cops that shot and killed Derik Hale in N.J. or Russel Doza, howabout all the thousands of people that have been abused by tasers ?????? I can post literally thousands of articles of cops doing illeagle shit everyday, and were the bad guys ??????????? I just cant understand yourways of thinking, this has been a very intresting read, and Ive wanted to respond a few times, then somebody said what i was going to so I wated, but Id just like to throw this in written by friend of mine altho weve never met in person we have talked over the net, and he,s not only a P/H but one hell of a writer Ill leave you with this,


    In the 1940’s Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs banded together as this 1% that chooses to live our alternative lifestyle, together, on the road, ROAD WARRIORS, outside of the mainstream.



    * We do NOT manufacture drugs
    * We do NOT do contract killing
    * We do NOT steal motorcycles nor do we run chop shops
    * We are NOT extortionists
    * We are NOT rapists
    * We are NOT gun runners
    * We are NOT racists organizations
    * We are NOT involved in human trafficking nor do we condone it


    1%’ers Are NOT Criminals/GANGSTERS and our CLUBS are not gangs!!!

    We in the 1%’er OUTLAW Motorcycle Club Community are fighting to protect our own events, homes, families and CLUB MEMBERS from the gangs and criminals that are trying to infiltrate and dominate our Communities as well.


    We take care of our own problems!
    thanks, Jim666, aka (Joker )
    P.s. if you support your local 1% Mc, you,ll more than likley get a tee shirt also,

  280. Glenn S. Says:

    Quagmire: “Glenn… Any opinion to offer on my earlier questions?”

    No, because I am not qualified to answer them. But there are those here who are, and have answered them, again and again. You just don’t like the answer.

    I’ll ask you this: What if I were to go to a law enforcement website and pose this question: I’d like to ride around in in a car that says “Police” on the side of it, and has flashing blue lights on the top, and wear a blue suit with a badge while doing it. I’d also like to carry a gun, and impede people while they are going about their lives. And I want all cops to treat me as if I were a cop, and give me the respect I’d get if I had graduated from the police academy and spent some years in harm’s way on the streets. I don’t want to actually do these things, I just want you to treat me as if I had. And when I say a thing, I expect all of you cops to believe me, or act as if you do in front of the public. Oh, and I want you to ignore the fact that I am a convicted felon. That cool with y’all cops?

    I think we know just what the answer to that would be, don’t we, Quagmire?

    As has been said, you seem allright, other than the fact that you’re a cop. That’s a biggie for me, and maybe for some other people here too. Have you ever thought of getting in another line of work? That might just solve your quandry.

    It occurs to me that, since I’ve been an ex-convict, damn near every social situation I’ve been in, I’ve either been made to feel unwelcome because I’ve done time or nobody knew, but I could tell that they wouldn’t want me around if they did know. One of the few corners of humanity that does welcome me, a certain segment of motorcycle enthusiasts, won’t welcome you because you are a cop. But you’re made welcome at a lot of places where I am not.

    Why don’t you just join the Harley Owners’ Group?

  281. Quagmire Says:

    “Would have some sense knocked into him.” So if your Brother does not believe in the collective, he is beaten? That doesn’t sound like a brotherhood. That sounds like a cult. I can respect the MCs of old. Back when the reason to be was to ride, hang with your Brothers and party. With the introduction of the drug market, it became a business. Countless times there has been coups d’etats within the ranks. Infighting and fighting with other MCs over “turf”. Sometimes I think the 1%MCs are no better than the blacks fighting over who wears red and who wears blue. Who gives a shit if the MC on the other side of the city has a different patch than you? Just ride and love your Brothers! You guys need to get back to your roots. Brotherhood should be built on love, not fear. My Brother can disagree with me and the LEMC without fear. There is a Brotherhood in law enforcement. I have stood shoulder to shoulder with my Brothers in countless fights. I have wept with my Brothers at the funerals of our fallen. I have passed on the traditions to the next generation. I have celebrated with them and spent too many holidays working beside them. ToSlick, you and I will never agree on the definition of Brotherhood. We might have to agree to disagree. I do respect you for taking the time to give me your viewpoints. I am going to continue to respect all I come across, bikers included, until that respect is not returned. And I will continue to be me, portraying nothing. My LEMC Colors will be continue to flown proudly. Please do the same.

  282. Caretaker Says:

    Agreed. I for one think any more questions from officer friendly should be answered with “if ya need ta ask…”. Just my theory.


  283. KK Says:

    Where in Boone Co. you work at cop? I can send a handfull of support your local 1% club stickers for your PD cars. I can only send one smaller 1% support sticker for your sled though, I thought you might like that one, especially since you really want to be & act like us.

    All the other LEO will think your really special & cool(er) too.

    Rollinorth: His mindset is an “8 hour cop” , so it sounds like he is in investigations not patrol. By his dumb questions makes sense. I’m done.

    KK 1%

  284. Quagmire Says:

    Can’t fault a guy for asking questions. I’m trying to understand what I don’t know. I have been respectful, you gotta at least give me that.

  285. Caretaker Says:

    Yes,you have been respectful. You are,however,asking too many of the wrong questions,imho. Most of us that have been riding as long as you say you have would already know the answers,and if they don’t,they don’t need to. It’s really that simple.

    I’m done now,

  286. BigV Says:

    This is a waste of time, waste of breath, waste of bandwidth. If he is in Boone Co, maybe one of the Whites will take care of this.

  287. Rebel Says:

    Dear Quagmire,

    All due respect, but not even Jay fucking Dobyns can stand Cop clubs. I am not saying they are all necessarily all bad all the time. The club in Maryland, for example, might actually be an exception to the general rule. But most cop clubs are outlaws when they are winning the fight and cops when they start to lose. The fight at the Loud American in Sturgis a few years back between a half dozen Iron Pigs and two Hells Angels is but one of many examples.


  288. Rebel Says:

    Dear Quagmire,

    All due respect, there are many wavelengths in the cop club spectrum. The Chosen Sons in B-More are one end of the Spectrum. I have no problems with them that I know. The Blue Knights are the other end. As far as I know, I have no problem with them. When anybody has a problem with cop clubs it is usually the Iron Pigs or their ilk. Not even Jay Dobyns can stand the Iron Pigs. They are outlaws when they are winning the fight and they become cops the second they start to lose.


  289. observer Says:

    The appeal of the “outlaw life” seems to spawn a range of true outlaws, from homicidal maniac to strong silent intellectual, who just wants to be left alone, seriously, and is willing to grant the same. Many of these individuals not coincidentally prefer transportation by motorcycle, and groups of riders coalescing into clubs is a pretty natural result. In common, they share a desire to live by their own code, (they’re “outlaws”, after all and even call themselves that). They also share the glare of public scrutiny, because their lives to some extent appeal to practically everyone. Most folk chafe at societal authority, but few reject it outright, and much less go so far as to actually say so, and wear something on their back that proves it. Those at this end of the spectrum, the 1%er MCs, present a glamorous and iconic ideal of sorts, and the entertainment media puts it out there as hard as it can. This publicity reverberates back through the psyche of the clubs, and they begin to buy into an even larger image of themselves. They are ultimately convinced, if they weren’t already, that what they are, and have, is a pretty big deal, sacred in some way, and it needs defending, with their very lives if necessary, because in fact, it is their very lives. These men have enormous metaphysical territory, and egos to match.
    Elsewhere in the universe, there are the cops, on bikes, with metaphysical territory of “their” own (it’s society’s, really, the cops’ boss) and badges, and guns. In ways, they resemble the “outlaws”, in their sense of territory and power, but since they are in fact the law, they can never of course be “outlaws”. This does not stop them from wanting some of that other world, however, (many do) so some cops on bikes, simply because they can, imitate that other side, seeking to straddle both worlds, which really cannot be done. I think this shows the enormous gravitational pull of the outlaw life, when cops themselves actually want in. MCs like the Iron Order are not going away; they are in fact growing. I believe it represents a new cultural phenomenon of confused, conflicted, and truly lost men, on bikes, with guns, badges, and three piece patches. This will lead to something else, somehow, everything always does. Just as the outlaw bikers unwillingly and unknowingly begat their cop followers, these pretenders themselves will likely some day have copiers of their own. Will the next generation of this confused breed be more like cops, or outlaws? Whatever it is, it’s probably coming sooner than later. “The beat goes on.”

  290. jrnr Says:

    I know I’ve said it on this site before, but as I continue to read this thread I have to say it again,

    RIP to Derek Hale and Russell Doza and all of the other men, women and children who have been wrongfully killed or terrorized by the fucking pigs, both local and federal. You pricks don’t give two shits about protecting citizens, you just want to protect your jobs and your fucking budgets.



  291. Rebel Says:

    Dear jrnr,

    I’m not going to say every cop is a heartless psychopath because clearly many of them are as moral, responsible and honest as most Hells Angels, Mongols, Vagos, Pagans, Sons, Bandidos and Outlaws. But the intelligence/anti-terroism/police/propaganda/prison industrial complex clearly is psychopathic and increasingly out of control. I owe readers an update on Roc Doza and, since not everybody knows what happened, I also owe readers a feature about Derek Hale.

    I spent most of yesterday up at Bartells (and thank you very much Kirk) and I am juggling several glowing branding irons at the moment, but before laughlin I will try to get those two pieces piblished.


  292. RVN69 Says:

    Ever wonder where all those people concerned about “civil rights” and “police brutality” were when Derek Hale was tased 3 times, then shot in the chest point blank for the crime of not taking his hand out of his pockets fast enough. When Russell Doza a deaf man was shot twice in the base of his skull for the crime of not being able to hear the police commands and reaching for his hearing aids. When James Hicks was shot down in front of his wife for the crime of investigating who was breaking into his home in the early morning.

    Neither Derek Hale or Russell Doza were wanted for anything, they had committed no crimes but they died at the hands of the police anyway.

    James Hicks was murdered in front of his wife so the police could search his house for proof he was a Pagan, something he would have proudly told them if they had asked.

    Quagmire, this is why we hate you, this is what cops do, if you had any honor you would quit and find a real job.

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare

  293. Grumbler Says:

    That arrogant, self-serving badges with guns Because We Can propaganda declared by cop clubs aptly illustrates a total lack of respect for the ingrained motorcycle culture.

    On that note, there’s an upcoming cop club american motorcycle charity swap meet for fallen or injured officers, et al. I would never, ever attend nor participate in any event, including the one above, sponsored or infiltrated by cop clubs.

    Accepting 3 piece patch LEMCs into the motorcycle culture gives them a sense of entitlement and acceptance which, in turn, opens the gates to more and more and more LEMC members and clubs.

    Hypothetically speaking, would it be legal for any real or non-LEMC club to print event flyers with No Law Enforcement Motorcycle Clubs Allowed or even refuse to allow LEMCs to register for an event?

  294. Goldsboro Williams Says:


    It is still America, and I don’t believe cops are a protected class (yet). Of course, the flyers would be guaranteed to attract the wrong kind of attention for the participants.

    Rebel, thanks for saying that not all cops are heartless psychopaths. As I am now a former cop, I think I am getting better. Just yesterday I petted a puppy. As far as being psycho, my doctor swears the meds are starting to work.

    If he is wrong I’m going to stab his eyes out.


  295. Stroker Says:

    Observer, I liked your words. Jim666, yours also. I still don’t think
    Quagmire (and other LEMC members) gets it. The question he’s not answering is: Why do they want to look (to the world) like us? That is
    the question you should be asking yourself Quagmire.

  296. 10Gauge Says:

    If it was about riding and brotherhood they would leave the three pieces alone no need for them….Nope they steal the look and make up irreverant names like gunslingers or top dogs or law mutts or WTF….In a vein attempt to piss us off and let everyone know how bad ass they think they are.

    Funny thing is their own kind hate em worse than we do…There is nothing more pathetic than grown men playing dress up…

    This whole conversation just makes me puke in my mouth.. They don’t get it and never will and all this talk about “turning backs” on brothers who want to go strait is the funniest thing I have read on here…But the sad thing is… this is what this copper really thinks….what he truely believes. FTP, FTF, FREE ALL FEDERALLY FABRICATED CRIMINALS

  297. YYZ Skinhead Says:


    I wish I had checked back into this thread. That was A KICKASS POST.


    It goes without saying that yours was a kickass post.

    To be fair, I have met LEOs who are not Ciccone, Jay Dobyns and/or “just a question”, like the one from AZ at the Queen Mary Scottish Games with whom I had a good chat about our common liking of McEwan’s Scotch Ale. I doubt this individual would have joined a LEMC or become an infiltrating rat because he seemed to have at least a modicum of self-respect.

    Goldsboro Williams, I wish you worked here in Long Bitch.

    YYZ Skinhead

  298. BigV Says:

    Rebel: I am glad you are working on those pieces, if only because I think your work makes a positive difference rather than negative.

    I realize, with prosecutors and the court system the way it is, that an author can not know how their work will effect the cases of the men they write about.

    The two most sensationalist books written about MC’s- at least up until the ATF started churning out their own copy- were “Hells Angels” and “Wheels of Rage”. “Outlaws Forever” was a reverent piece that tried to do much the same as what you are doing, with less success under the circumstances.

    “Wheels of Rage” was known to be close to outright satire, but it sure screwed over Michael Brown(anyone know if Big Mike is still alive or if there are any remnants of the Iron Cross(the GA club is unrelated)) and later on Jenks when they were in federal court in the late 70’s and early 80’s. It was used in the sentencing report against Mike and I know it was referenced when Jenks probation was rescinded in the early 90’s. It was about as clearly satirical/humor/exploitation as any book could be- complete with matching illustrations- but it was taught in several sociology classes at the collegiate level and it is still a cited source in “scholarly” works on MC’s. Yes, I am serious.

    So, to rip off Johnny Paycheck, write on Rebel.

    Thanks for what you’ve done for our little world.


  299. Shyster Says:

    I like reading the posts of those who “think like me.” Visiting and reading the posts here daily by all of you makes me proud to be a free thinking American.


  300. Glenn S. Says:

    RVN69 says: “…Quagmire, this is why we hate you, this is what cops do, if you had any honor you would quit and find a real job.”

    Many more honorable lines of work to be found. There’s insurance adjuster, calculating service charges for bank overdrafts, putting stray dogs “to sleep” at the “humane” society, slumlord, staff member of a political campaign (any candidate or political party), IRS auditor, hell, anything but cop.

  301. Hose-a 1% Says:

    Lost in all of this but not forgotten by myself and many of his other brothers.Charlie Tombstone 1% Nichols.He was arrested over the bullshit in W.Virginia and when he was in court and refused bail he told the judge he would die in jail.Well guess what he didn’t make it too long thanks to the alphabet army and some no good fucking rats we lost a very good man friend and brother.This out of control bullshit ATF FBI and whatever other FEDERAL GANG you can think of has to be put in check.We no longer have any rights as soon as we put on colors.If TREVON MARTIN can get all of this attention because he was wearing a hoody or whatever the fuck the reason might be.Then why the fuck can’t a biker that gets murdered by these scared pieces of shit with a badge get some kind of justice?
    Hose-a 1%er Pagan’s M.C. retired F.T.F.

  302. RVN69 Says:

    If Charles Nichols had belonged to any of the favorite political groups, there would have been an army of attorney’s and protestors calling for justice. But like the other men I mentioned, he was just a biker, poor white trash and people like us don’t matter to the media, the law, or the system. We have only ourselves and unfortunately sometimes as in his case that just isn’t enough.

    RIP Charlie “Tombstone” Nichols, another murder victim of the federal government.

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare

  303. Glenn S. Says:

    The only differences between the George Zimmerman/Treyvon Martin shooting and the ones mentioned here is that we don’t know whether or not Zimmerman is lying, Zimmerman might really have needed to shoot Martin to protect himself, Zimmerman didn’t have a SWAT team backing him, and Zimmerman was not trained to use non-lethal force.

    That’s a really good point, Hose-a 1%. Some guy shoots a young black male while volunteering to watch his neighborhood, and there’s really no proof its not self-defense, and the lynch mob gets him thrown in jail. He’ll likely stay there, in the hole for his own protection (and I know the hole does shit to the mind), for a year or three until he finally pleads to manslaughter because his family went broke trying to pay the lawyers and expert witnesses. Best result possible for him would be an acquital after he’s lost everything and done at least a year in jail. Worst case scenario for the cops who kill bikers is a week or so behind a desk while his friends conduct a sham investigation with a foregone conclusion.

    Fucked up world, and Mr. Cop-with-a-patch whines: “Why don’t you guys like meeee.”

  304. jrnr Says:

    RIP Charlie “Tombstone” Nichols 1%er. Condolences to your family and brothers.



  305. BigV Says:

    When they won’t treat a man for sleep apnea or allow him to have his medically prescribed CPAP, I think that can be called one thing- murder.

    RIP Tombstone Charlie.

  306. RVN69 Says:

    Hose-a 1% Says:If TREVON MARTIN can get all of this attention because he was wearing a hoody or whatever the fuck the reason might be.Then why the fuck can’t a biker that gets murdered by these scared pieces of shit with a badge get some kind of justice?

    Not trying to hijack this thread, but based on the news conference the special prosecutor held last night, I believe George Zimmerman is going to learn a hard lesson that most of us learned as hangarounds or prospects. When the politics are against you, justice is just a word in the dictionary.

  307. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    I think the reason nobody has made the connection between a murderer killing a kid wearing a hoody and murderers with badges killing bikers who wear colors, is because nobody has brought it up. Those bikers may have been poor whites but they were not trash, they were people who DID NOT deserve to be “legally” murdered by pigs in front of their families. Somebody needs to point this out to every civil rights group in the country, and I think that if most Americans were aware that poor white bikers are victims of profiling, it might wake them up.

    Randy Weaver had to watch his wife and child murdered by the feds, and I think most Americans would agree that those murders were UNFORGIVABLE, whatever they think of Weaver’s kooky ideology. What difference did it make to the rest of America if he owned some guns that ATF didn’t like? He was living in bumfuck egypt isolated from society. The government had to pay him a lot but that didn’t bring his family back from the dead. I feel very sorry for Weaver, and if I met him at a gun show I would tell him this.

    Americans need to be made aware of intra-racial bigotry and profiling as well as interracial bigotry and profiling. They may have nothing else in common, but Trayvon Martin, Randy Weaver, and all of the bikers mentioned were victims of the same thing.

    YYZ Skinhead

  308. Grumbler Says:

    YYZ Skinhhead wrote: He (Randy Weaver) was living in bumfuck egypt isolated from society.

    Just for the record, that bumfuck egypt was actually Ruby Ridge, ID in Kaniksu National Forest. It’s located southwest of Bonner’s Ferry. Definitely is a well isolated region.

    Incidently, there’s a propensity for a lynch-mob mentality in reader comments to online newspaper articles revolving around MC arrests for whatever charges be they fabricated or not. That tells us that either the cops have brainwashed the public like Jim Jones and his kool-aide or the cops themselves, as a hate group, are posting that shit.

  309. YYZ Skinhead Says:


    Props for posting the name of the “location” (I couldn’t call it a “village” since the population was one family), which I had forgotten. What gets me most about Weaver is he hadn’t done anything to me, but my taxes paid for the murder of his family. The ATF gave a sickening new meaning to “women and children first”, both there and at Waco.

    It makes perfect sense that pigs masquerading as citizens are posting propaganda to those MC bust article comments. It took your post for me to realize that and the fact that corrupt freedom-thief cops who deprive Americans–many of them Veterans–of their civil rights, form a hate group. Depriving people of their civil rights is what hate groups have always done, and pigs can do it “legally”. They are a nationwide lynch mob wearing badges instead of robes and hoods. 2 & 2.

    YYZ Skinhead

  310. Rebel Says:

    Dear Grumbler,

    In case anybody doesn’t know Weaver was set up by an ATF undercover agent pretending to be a biker.


  311. BadMagic Says:

    From Wikipedia:

    Weaver was approached at a 1986 Aryan Nations rally by ATF informant Kenneth Faderley (posing as a biker named Gus Magisono) who was investigating Weaver’s friend Frank Kumnick. Faderley presented himself as an illegal firearms dealer from New Jersey. Faderley met Weaver again at the 1987 World Congress. Weaver skipped the 1988 Aryan Nations meeting and ran as a candidate for county sheriff (and lost). In 1989, Weaver supplied two modified shotguns to Faderley. The ATF maintained that the weapons supplied by Weaver were illegally shortened when Faderley received them, Weaver has claimed otherwise. The DOJ Ruby Ridge Task Force Report (1994) records that Faderley stated Weaver showed him an unaltered shotgun and Faderley pointed out where he wanted Weaver to cut the gun. The ATF wanted to use Weaver to introduce Faderley to Charles Howarth who was starting a group in Montana, after which the ATF intended to drop the Kumnick and Weaver investigations. Weaver refused to take Faderley to Montana in November 1989 and Faderley was told by his superiors to have no further contact with Weaver.


  312. RVN69 Says:

    YYZ Skinhead,
    The critical difference in how people are treated by law enforcement is not, as presented by the multitude of race hustlers, skin color, but is in fact money and connections.

    Randy Weaver, the Branch Davidians, Derek Hale, the Hispanic Marine shot down in his house in Arizona, the unknown(the video is on youtube) innocent black man gunned down by a swat team that raided the wrong house, Roc Doza, James Hicks, Charlie Nichols, Ray Foakes all have that in common, they were neither rich or connected.

    No really believes that the cops treated Randy Weaver and his family with the same light touch they used with The Ramsey’s in the Jon Benet Ramsey murder case. Ray Foakes got nearly 6 years in jail, Chris Dodd a Senator got a cheap loan and did favors for the banker and we got to pick up the tab. In all the other occurences of murder by authorities, even when they raided the wrong house, or killed someone sitting on the front porch, or shot a baby out of it’s mothers arms, or incinerated dozens of people, they declared themselves blameless. To the best of my knowledge, not since a sheriffs office in Cali killed the heir to some fortune obstensively for growning pot, but really because the DA wanted to seize his oceanfront home, have the cops done any shock and awe raids in wealthy neighborhoods, cause they know money talks and bullshit walks. Most of us, black, white or brown don’t register on Al Sharptons or LaRaza or the ACLU’s radar so we ain’t never gonna get no one marching when we get killed.
    Some like you were born into this, others like me made a conscious decision to live this way. Ain’t fair, it’s just how it is.

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare

  313. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    Okay, ATF sends stormtroopers in biker dress-up to entrap even people who are not bikers? Faderley = Dobyns = Queen = Tait et cetera ad infinitum?

    I believe Weaver about the guns because he has no reason to lie. To the ATF, lying is as natural as taking a shit.

    YYZ Skinhead

  314. BigV Says:

    The guns were measured and found to be legal by an inch or two.

    Fadeley lives up in Michigan. The butcher Lon Horiuchi collects a government pension and was never tried for any crime. The state dismissed charges.

    There are thousands of Fadeley’s on the government payroll. Watch who you deal with. Beware the super biker/skinhead/supremacist/panther.


  315. 10Gauge Says:

    The PIGS have been playing dress-up and killing our people since the beginning of time and the sheeple do not give a shit. Never did. Never will. It is disgusting, but it is no small part of what sets us apart. Our life has consequences and sacrifices most men would never dream of….These wannabees come along with their fake cuts and parade around like BAD ASSES ..

    If they ever had a true understanding or self awareness about how people view them they woulld just stop the sherade. Their own lawmen and women dispise them for dressing up like the very men they have dedicated their lives to profiling, harrassing, setting up, shooting,and falsly arresting. They mock them behind their backs for what they consider tarnishing the badge – the scared sheeple they have vowed to protect think they are dirty cops and consider them a gang- we laugh at how stupid they look trying to pretend to be something they are not and shake our heads at the total lack of respect for the insult to the honor and tradition that is such a deep part of this life.

    Long gone are the days of any type of mutual respect where a “misunderstanding” might end in a fight and a night in jail for drunk and disorderly but certainly not multiple felonies and getting gut shot. Gone are the days of you are on one side of the ball and we are on the other (not beause we are criminals but because we have different life philosephies) but there are rules to the game that everybody recognizes…Don’t blame us for these changes until you have been forced to lay face down on the floor of your home after all of the windows have been broken out, the door blown off the hinges, the dog has been shot, your children and wife are cuffed and “detained” while your house is ransacked and destroyed by 25 cops dressed like they are getting ready for patrol in Iraq…meanwhile some stupid meathead that does more steroids than Lyle Alzado and will spend his whole life suckling at the goverment tit…is making a crude running commentary in front of your kids while digging through your ol ladies underware drawer…and they are all there to collect evidence to PROVE you belong to an Outlaw Motorcycle Gang. FTF, FTP, MOTORCYCLE CLUBS ARE NOT STREET GANGS

  316. Grumbler Says:

    BigV wrote: The butcher Lon Horiuchi collects a government pension and was never tried for any crime. The state dismissed charges.

    Horiuchi was, without a doubt, a remorseless killer. The DA in Boundary County, ID actually charged Horiuchi with involuntary manslaughter in 1997, but the indictment was removed to federal jurisdiction thanks to the fuckin’ Supremacy Clause and, no big surprise, the dog butt sniffing federal prosecutor eventually dismissed it.

  317. RVN69 Says:

    I have a comment awaiting moderation. In that comment I made a mistake in refering to the Weavers baby being shot from his mothers arms. What I meant to say was Randy Weavers wife was shot by an FBI sniper while holding onto her infant child.

    This will all make sense when the other comment clears moderation, I think!!

    Potius Mori Quam Foedare

  318. Goldsboro Williams Says:

    The whole Ruby Ridge thing showed the mindset of the Federal Government. As far as I know, no one bothered driving up to the house and talking to him prior to shooting his son and dog.

    Another example would be the nutcases down in Waco. Was Koresh a mental? Sure. But they stormed the place for a media show rather than simply arrest him on a weapons charge. Koresh had been arrested before for either Felonious Assault or Attempted Murder (I don’t remember which).

    In that case the local law simply called him, and he came down and turned himself in. Given that a weapons charge is a lot less serious, I doubt there would have been a problem with a simple arrest. That, however, would not have gotten them the media publicity that they wanted, as their funding was under threat.

    All the deaths ultimately resulted from their bad judgement, their “assault” mindset, and their desire for media exposure.

  319. Hose-a 1% Says:

    It seeems to always come down to the bottom line funding and budgets.
    We as members of notorius M.C.’S just happen to make there jobs easy for them.When we ride our bikes we wear our colors proudly.They sit back write down our tag number and run a back ground check.Then the bullshit starts they will start compiling there lies and how much of a threat clubs are in our communitys.
    Most members of clubs are veterans that have served there country proudly.When they come home they are looking for brotherhood and M.C.’S are an obvious choice for most.How does a guy go from being a hero to a threat to national security?Alot of the other vets become cops and some turn into Captain asshole.Given a badge and a gun and do what ever they want to do without regard to who they kill.
    Then they buy a bike and make up some bullshit leo club.Know because they are pigs they still fuck with people because thats what they do.When they run into a real club they can only crumble like the cowards they are.So welcome to our world and the consiqences that go with it.I doubt you’re door will be kicked in at 5:00 am and you will not get shot in front of your ol lady for trying to protect your home.Yet you wonder why you are detested.GO FIGURE.

    Hose-a 1% er Pagan’s M.C. retired F.T.F. F.T.P.

  320. Glenn S. Says:

    Juries eventually acquitted Weaver and most of the surviving Branch Davidians, as I recall. The federal agencies responsible for those fiascos got a lot of bad publicity. And, rather than take a look at what they were doing and maybe disbanding some of the worse offending agencies, or at least trying to make them a little less like Hitler’s SS, the decision was obviously made to point them in the direction of less socially acceptable targets than religious nutcases and ober-religious seperatists, i.e. bikers. I’m trying to wrap my mind around the idea than American juries, media, and public will not quietly tolerate persecution of religious nutcases, but will gladly rubber stamp the framing and railroading of bikers. The only resopnse I can think of to try to counter this phenominon (other than direct eye-for-an-eye, which would be WRONG and ILLEGAL!) would be to bribe reporters, editors, etc. into presenting a different viewpoint to the public. Pay the fucking media to tell the truth.

    On a personal note and digression, I took a vacation day yesterday, for my 53rd birthday, and rode my bike from Greenville to Columbia to see the signts. Took a picture of my bike in front of the confederate war memorial (that will probably soon fall victim to political correctness; the Revs. Jesse and Al have been demanding such for awhile) and visited the site of the former Central Correctional Institution, the 150-year-old penitentiary where I spent several years.It was closed and torn down in 1994, partly because of humanitarian reasons, mostly because it sat on prime real estate that now contains a trendy yuppie village of condos. One wall still stands: where, at the back corner of the old prison, there was the Maximum Security Center, where misbehaving prisoners were often beaten and tortured, sometimes murdered. (I recall an incident where one prisoner supposedly hung himself and, despite the fact that the deceased had two unexplained broken arms, it was ruled a suicide.) Since then, the state has changed its prison system–for the worse. Any prisoner that was once at the old prison, and has since been at one of the newer ones, will tell you that the old system was far more humane. The media used to report on the excesses of the staff, now it does not.

  321. sled tramp Says:

    If I remember correctly Waco had an “advisory” of Army S.F. numbering 3 blanketheads.At some point prior to the final assault,the Army told ATF to go screw themselves and left.If I understand correctly, it was due to the ATF’s cowboy mentality and that the Army refused to go in with them and fire upon American citizens with kids present.Apparently the ATF had no problem with it.

  322. BigV Says:

    Glenn: That’s because us narco criminals- who are mostly non-violent btw- deserve all the scorn the government and their media cronies can throw on us. Because we’re evil and dangerous. Why ? Because the government said narcotics are bad for us and against THE LAW. If you break the law you’re a bad, bad person. And you deserve to be punished. Lots. And lots.

    Did I mention lots of punishment ?

    Welcome to the Amerikan Geϟϟtapo.

    It’s a scary time to be alive.

  323. Grumbler Says:

    Just for a little historical perspective, in 1969 alone, 28 Black Panther Party members were killed by the police. California’s strategy was to push the BPP into an armed confrontation it could not win. Members were jailed, harassed, set up and gunned down. FBI agents, under the COINTELPRO program, were sent in to destabilise the Panthers. Some of those BPP members, in fear for their lives, had to surrender to the cops stark naked otherwise they’d risk being killed under the premise of carrying concealed weapons.

  324. YYZ Skinhead Says:


    That sounds a bit too familiar. Members of an anti-big government fringe group harassed and murdered by government nazis. If the government doesn’t like your beliefs you don’t deserve to live, and you deserve to be humiliated as part of the deal.’

    The real Black Panther Party was about protecting impoverished blacks from the crime infesting their neighborhoods (which the pigs still refuse to do – I can testify to this), feeding the poor, organizing communities, ministering to prisoners and generally doing everything the government was supposed to do but wouldn’t. (The so-called New BPP is a Farrakkkhan Nation of Idiots hate group which the real Black Panther Party is suing for stealing their name – the real BPP had plenty of white members.) The BPP were working to improve black communities from within and to hell with the not-giving-a-shit government, and a lot of members were armed as was their American right. Of course the state and feds couldn’t tolerate that so they had to start murdering BPP members. (Je$$e Jack$on and Al $harpton can only wish they had the balls of the real BPP.)

    Randy Weaver and David Koresh owned guns, as was their American right, and wanted to live reclusive and peaceful lives away from everyone and everything. As a “brown recluse”, I can thoroughly empathize, though for different reasons, and unfortunately I live in a massive urban area with people piled on top of people.

    Outlaw bikers are men who want to ride, socialize with other men like themselves and be left alone. Many if not most of them suffer from PTSD as a result of serving our country. This current government has failed our Veterans spectacularly at least since Vietnam, so many Veterans say FTF and join biker clubs. I believe that riding free and being with one’s Veteran Brothers is therapeutic for these wounded heroes that the government has used and discarded. This nation was founded by Veterans who wanted to escape oppression by the English government. General George Washington, an outlaw according to the royal oppressors, would not have tolerated our current government’s casual discarding of our Warriors. Outlaw bikers ride the roads laid down by our Founding Fathers. A lot of them own guns, as is their American right.

    Today’s federal freedom thieves don’t want anyone except pigs to own guns and don’t want anyone to live or even think on the fringe, so they persecute bikers (and just about anyone else) who say fuck off to the laws that don’t protect them.

    Nothing new under the sun. I just wonder how many more times this government-sanctioned oppression scenario will be replayed, and against which groups and individuals.

    PS. I hadn’t read the Doza articles when they were posted, and I hadn’t known he was deaf, so I tried to read one this morning and I couldn’t read past where he lost his hearing because that combined with the child abuse was more than I could take. How big a of a conscienceless coward does one have to be to murder a suffering, deaf man? Adolf would have been proud.

    YYZ Skinhead

  325. observer Says:

    YYZ Skinhead: Very nice post. Good to see the informed distinction between the BPP and the Farrakhan, Jackson and Sharpton crowd(s). “Brown recluse” indeed. That’s funny.

  326. YYZ Skinhead Says:


    Glad your post showed up. As you know I enjoy all your comments, but that post was beyond awesome. I can’t stand the race hu$tlers either. They don’t speak for me. All they EVER do is stir shit. Whenever something happens to a person in this or that demographic the media goes by default to Al $harpton and his equivalents in other groups because baiting sells.

    Dead on about money and connections being the main influences on what pigs do to citizens. I would add class as well, because RUBs never get randomly shot by pigs for riding something with two instead of four wheels and wearing vests with patches on them. But money is what makes the world go round, if you are sufficiently rich to bribe pigs/feds you can get kid-gloves rather than dead kids. (Again, how much of a sadistic coward must one be to burn children alive and to shoot a child and a housewife holding a baby?)

    Every murder at the hands of pigs needs to be on the front page of every newspaper and the top story on every news channel. The government is supposed to protect Americans from crime because we pay them to do so, but instead it protects pigs from prosecution for their crimes against Americans. It’s called taxation without representation. Americans need to look past superficial differences like skin color and realize that government-sanctioned torture and murder happen to all races, and all Americans who can’t/won’t bribe the government are vulnerable.

    Since the pigs run the mainstream media and want to keep Americans blind to these facts, we need to use the internet to expose them and encourage people to unite against oppression, and Rebel’s site is already doing so. Unity has worked in the past and it may work in the future to regain our American right to be free from governmental tyranny.

    YYZ Skinhead

  327. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    Why, thank you, Observer. The more I read Rebel’s site, the more I discover in common with the good folks who post here, and those written about. I add you to my list of Aging Rebel regulars whom I will buy a beer if we meet.

    YYZ Skinhead

  328. JIM666 Says:

    Looks like the cop has run out of ideas to justify his buddies actions and left the building.


  329. Observant Guest Says:

    I have a couple questions / statements on this subject because I find it fascinating and I ride. I am not specifically tied to any club but I have been around several.

    First I just want to say that I am a Sociology student, I am studying the dynamics of the MC world and I was wondering a few things.

    1. I read this whole thing and I saw a mention of the IOMC not being a real club because chapters popped up all over rather quickly and prospecting did not seem to take a long time. I was wondering what the general consensus was on that because in Texas in the early 90’s the Bandito’s opened chapters and patched in members at an alarming rate, many of these new patch holders did not own or ride motorcycles and were brought in to raise numbers from local street gangs during a war. Does the situation dictate tradition or is protocol of a club always followed regardless fo the situation?

    2. The prospecting time/difficulty differs in many clubs, I have heard of members being patched into 1% clubs in as little as five weeks or as long as two years. In your opinions what time frame would be acceptable? I have asked a few patch holders locally and the response has always been “it takes as long as it takes”

    3. The 3 piece patch thing confuses me a bit, I have seen 1% clubs with three piece patches and one piece patches. What is the defining element that people are fighting over. Is it the 1% diamond?

    4. In my personal experience in the bar scene here, I have met several members of several different clubs, From my experience the IOMC here at least (I cannot speak for other areas as I know individual chapters and customs vary, I have met seemingly decent people in some and total dick’s in others) seem to be mostly current or former Military personel from all walks of life, I did not ask about LEO’s in the club as I thought it may be rude. I also saw an IOMC member talking with a member of a Red and Gold support club. They looked like they were having a good time and talking over a beer. Is the animosity between 1% clubs and the IOMC universal or only in certain areas?

  330. Rebel Says:

    Dear Observant Guest,

    Okay. I’ll bite.

    You are studying the dynamics of the MC World? Why not study the dynamics of herds of cats?

    1. Bandidos. Not Banditos. I have no idea what “war” you mean. I do not know of the Bandidos ever recruiting “street gang members,” although I am sure they have been accused of that by “biker authorities.”

    2. Most one percenter motorcycle clubs take at least one year to join. Six months of “hanging around” and six months of prospecting. Sometimes, if a chapter really needs new members, it can all be accomplished in six months. In my experience, you fill out the forms at the beginning of your formal hang around period. Depending on the club, hang arounds usually perform many of the same duties as prospects. I have been told that the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club usually requires at least two years to become a patch holder. Some clubs also use a “P-patch” — for probationary patch holder. That is usually a quicker way for a well established hang around or someone else who is well known to the club and numerous patch holders to get patched in. P-patch holders are club brothers but that status may be revoked at any time.

    3. Prospects need to demonstrate that it is very important to them to join their club. They need to prove that they can ride a motorcycle, ride a motorcycle in formation, be trusted to perform necessary tasks and keep their mouths shut, and they need to demonstrate that their wives will put up them joining.

    4. A full patch is likely to feature a top rocker, bottom rocker, side rocker, cube and patch. Many clubs also have mandatory small patches on the front of their cuts. The Galloping Goose on the other hand, who have been around since the 30s, have what is basically a one piece patch. There is no standard of clubs. Each club is unique in its culture, lore and symbols.

    5. Most of club politics is designed to ensure cordial relations with other motorcycle clubs. Most clubs share the same notion of what is or is not good manners. Usually clubs fight over bad manners.

    6. IOMC officers have always been polite to me. However, IOMC members have at least a three year history of being rude and overbearing with members of other motorcycle clubs. You should also be aware that various federal police forces, particularly the ATF, have a history of forming their own chapters and clubs. I have directly asked officers of the IOMC if and how they are connected to the ATF. I was told there is no connection. But I remain suspicious. If it quacks it’s a duck.

    7. Motorcycle clubs are not armies or mafias. They are elite brotherhoods. Of course members of different clubs get along and enjoy each other’s company.

    8. The guru you seek is William Dulaney. He teaches at Western Carolina University. Google the guy.

    Your pal,

  331. Observant Guest Says:


    Thank you for the information.

    William Dulaney was easy to find and the material he has written on the subject is prolific to say the least.

    The bandidos info came from a Documentary series called gangland, the former members of the club were talking about their anger at a president that recruited from street gangs and whom seldomn rode his bike.

    Thanks Again.

  332. Rebel Says:

    Dear Observant Guest,

    Glad to help. You should understand that all Gangland episodes about bikers were essentially written and produced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

    Buy my books. Experienced biker researchers unanimously agree they are indespensible. Also, buying them makes you more attractive to women.


  333. Sofa_king_fast Says:

    I personally think clubs like the Iron Order are one of the best things that could happen for the 1%er world. More 3 piece patches on the road means less police harassment for everyone.

    The fact that IOMC are more likely the law abiding citizen type would make me think that most of them are legally packing.

    I think clubs like this are here to stay.. they really are the NEW rebels, standing up against the rules and protocols established by the 1%er clubs. What grown adult with any self respect wants to go begging the local dominant club for permission to be a second class biker support club??

  334. Rebel Says:

    Dear Sofa_king_fast,

    I respectfully disagree. The Iron Order is to motorcycle clubs as Gangland is to journalism. Everything is now bullshit. I am not a huge fan of bullshit. Read Genesis 11, verses 1 – 9.


  335. 10Gauge Says:


    Your third paragraph contradicts the first.

    But thanks for playing!


  336. Oilslick Says:

    @ sofukinfast or sofa_king_fast or whatever ur gonna call urself next time. I don’t write here much but your statement doesn’t sit well with me. “What grown adult with any self respect wants to go begging……………”! Sounds like you think you’re better than those that have preceeded you into the MC world. I suspect that you are not a patch wearer. You don’t even get it……… you? What makes you so special that you don’t think those that have earned their keep don’t deserve your respect. “NEW rebel” my ass! To get respect you gotta give it first. Did Quagmire find a new name? Just sayin!


  337. Oilslick Says:

    @Observant Guest,
    Ever since I bought Rebels books…..I’ve been on a roll with the ladies!


  338. AKBill Says:

    I agree, after buying Rebel’s books, I too have been on a roll with the ladies! You’ve got something going there Rebel.

    Club rules and protocols exist for a good reason, mutual protection. Look into the genesis of the confederation of clubs movement for more on that thought. All 1%er clubs and many others experience intense and, in many instances, completely illegal police oppression. This is ongoing, just browse this site for plenty of examples.

    BTW, I have it on good authority that most every IOMC member packs. In fact I’ve heard that it’s required.

  339. jtthompson Says:


  340. JIM666 Says:

    somewhere Big V mentioned “Wheels of Rage heres a link,

  341. Mark VC_RC Says:

    I dont think the outlaw guys are getting the point, no matter the club nothing is taken away from you or your traditions. If IO says the bottom rocker isi for where they are from, why would you be so closed minded as not not accept that. This is two worlds we are taking about, clubs like IO or any other club create good press for all clubs good or bad.

    Insecurity is what I am getting from this dont why else would you care what another man is going or another club.

    Some will chose IO others will chose outlaw, this is the free world and peolpe have fought for this freedom shame on anyone that feels they can stop someone from doing anything other.

    Any club be it LEO, outlaw or other that acts in adisrespectful way to opress free choce has just disrespected ever person that has served there contry.

    I dont get why outlaws feel so direspected.

  342. Mark VC_RC_Loves_Dick Says:

    I post to this forum to create good press for all Mark’s. Any Mark that would be disrespected by my posting, doesn’t deserve respect as they don’t respect freedom. Even though most people would take my name as some sort for gay reference, which is obviously stuck in some sort of traditional thinking, it merely means I wish Mr. Clark to rest in peace.



    Give me my ball back, I’m going home. sheesh


  343. 10Gauge Says:


    Of course you do not understand. Just remember…you GET what you GIVE…

    Be safe out there,


  344. IrishDragon Says:


    I was gonna try to explain it to you again, but decided not to waste my time on you wannabe outlaws. You want to be outlaws, but without the danger. Big badasses hiding behind badges. Pussies!


  345. Pig Says:

    So what’s a non 1%er supposed to do? I respect the hell out of anyone who has EARNED a patch, regardless of how many “pieces” there are to it. I have yet to find an example of anything that has value that you don’t have to earn. I want that. I am not like those who have posted who just want to be left alone to ride and do what they want. I want the structure. I want the rules. I want there to be consequences if I or the guys I am riding with fuck up. It is all part of earning and keeping a patch and your patch isn’t worth anything (and therefore devalues all other patches) if you can just sew it on and call yourself an MC. I absolutely get why LEMC’s who do that are despised. I also understand that the relationship between Law Enforcement and Outlaw Clubs immediately illegitimatizes all LEMC’s because they aren’t subject to the same rules and therefore can’t legitimately earn the right to be a true MC. It’s like playing football against a team when you aren’t allowed to tackle them when they have the ball. They could probably win the Super Bowl every year but only a retard would consider them a legitimate football team; even if they wore football uniforms. Anyone who can’t see that doesn’t have the clout to ride in you guys’ shadows, let alone deserve your respect.

    But I also reject the idea that if you aren’t a 1% club, you can’t possibly have any idea about what a true brotherhood is. I was in the USMC for four years (Don’t thank me. I did it for me, not you). Members of that brotherhood have been throwing themselves on grenades, taking bullets, and charging machinegun nests for each other since 1775 (well, taking bullets since 1775. The grenades and machineguns came later). In fact, I would theorize that the strong sense of brotherhood shared by 1% MC’s is due in large part to the significant number of veterans in their ranks.

    I recently became a Reserve Deputy for a po’ dunk Sheriff’s Department. I sort of did it on a whim. Volunteer 10 or so hours a month, give some bullshit speeding tickets and talk a few people out of offing themselves, and you get discounts on firearms, national concealed carry reciprocity, and discounts on motel rooms. No big deal to me. I couldn’t care less about who smokes pot or whatever you do at parties and such. If you get fucked up and kill my family or friends on the road, that’s another story. So long as you don’t endanger all the sheeple out there, do your thing. No harm, no foul.

    So what’s a guy like me to do? I want to follow your rules. I want the structure. I want to prospect and for there to be a chance at failing if I don’t meet the cut. I want to be recognized, and for others to know who I am and what I stand for. How do I get a group of guys together who share the same values and constitution as I do, somehow identify ourselves as a group, and EARN a place in the MC world without being ostracized or showing disrespect to those of you who have paved the way? I’m not asking for or expecting your trust. Trust, like respect is earned. I don’t expect invites to parties at your clubhouses, but how do I show you guys that I can be tackled?

  346. Fuck Cops Says:

    Fuck the Iron Order. They are a fake ass club with pigs in it. I had a few issues with them and told the whole chapter in a bar I would pull their patches and they called the cops. Also, I heard that another club that has the same colors as them pulled their patch in Vegas. How did they get it back? Put on their fucking uniforms and demanded them back. Fucking punks.

  347. Rebel Says:

    Dear Fuck Cops,

    Yeah, the Iron Order wears black and white, which might earn some of them who happen to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time a tongue lashing.


  348. DesertH-D Says:

    Pig – You can’t stand on both sides of a fence at the same time. You went and became a cop. Call it a “Reserve Deputy” all you want… You’re a cop! Doesn’t matter how many or few hours you “volunteer”. If a guy only sucks dick once in a while, would that make him less a fag?

    So, now you’ve chosen your side of the fence, and you’re relegated to what lives there.

  349. Bob Says:

    Regarding the SOA phenomenon, I do understand how it could piss off someone in the 1% world to see someone who is not part of that culture wearing an actual cut (vest/jacket, embroidered patch/rockers) but I think you might want to reign it in a bit for the T-shirt thing. There’s just too many of them out there for you to be making an issue out of it all the time.

    Past that, if you happen to see someone wearing a long sleeve SOA T with a bottom rocker that says “Baghdad”,”Herat”, or “Afghanistan” on it, while the person may or may not be a fan of the show, they more than likely have that shirt because they served there in the military or work there as a security contractor. Or it was given to them by someone who got it there. The “Sons of Anarchy” is more a reference to “our” group and where we work than a nod to yours. An inside joke if you will. The bottom rockers simply say where you’ve been.

    While not speaking for anyone but myself, I doubt if any of us care any more about what you think of us wearing a shirt like I’ve described than we care about what you do and how you live in your 1%’er world. However I can promise you one thing. Anyone who approaches me, especially if I’m with my family, regarding that shirt in anything even faintly resembling an aggressive manner is gonna get a real good look at the front side of my front sight. Any sudden moves or failure to obey my verbal commands and they’re gonna get shot. Right away. A lot of times. And I have enough for all your friends too. I spend 9 months of the year downrange, and when I come home I will wear whatever the fuck I want to as far as T-shirts go. I like that shirt so I wear it a lot. And I will have zero problem articulating why I thought you were a credible threat to my safety.

    Just so you know. ;) Y’all ride safe now…

  350. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    A cop who fucked with the wrong dude and ended up in a ditch:

    YYZ Skinhead

  351. Grumbler Says:

    Kurt Sutter and his old lady are in this Grandsons of Anarchy clip near the end:

  352. DocB Says:

    Dear Bob
    Apreciate the comments and thanks for helping out over there. Remember this though, they didn’t stop making guns when they made yours.


  353. RVN69 Says:

    A little hard earned advice, no matter how good you are, or think you are, there is always someone who on that day, at that time,is either better or lucky.

    “I am not an angel, nor am I the devil, I am the bastard stepchild of both.”

  354. bob Says:

    wearing SOA shit while with family is felony child endangerment.Just kiddin’,”Bob”.Lighten up.

  355. 10guage Says:

    Bob the knob,

    I dont fuck with morons and their retard brood…However you are being insincere…You obviously care enough to come here with your threats…Just know this tough guy..I only speak for myself but I do not scare easy and am always prepared.ALWAYS…So FUCK YOU punk…Pull your shit and point it near me or mine and one of us will die…But if you think for one second you are the only Bad Motherfucker to have ever walked through the valley of the shadow of death you are sorely mistaken…A man of honor such as yourself should know better.

    Always Prepared..

  356. sled tramp Says:

    SERIOUSLY Bob?….yer gonna tell me/us how our untime demise is gonna come about through quick,square jawed,manly action protecting yer brood?
    Ya know….I deal with posers all the time.In the clubhouse visitors and guests sometimes try too hard and they get frog marched to the exit.Cagers behind steel try to intimidate me/us and impress the young lovely making us smile.Cops try to get us back for their ex girlfriends running off with a biker.It goes on and on…
    And now we have you Wyatt er…Bob.Thanks for threatening us cyber wise.Look,GOOSEbumps.
    BTW, some of us have been under fire now and again, here and there and feel no need to threaten anyone.I couldn’t care less what you wear or why or where you got it.The idea I/we would approach a family and get in your face in front of your children without a REAL good reason shows me what kind of idiot you are.
    Go away pal,yer boring me.

  357. Bob Says:

    DocB,RVN69,bob, thanks for the feedback. Tell you the truth I am actually not worried about it too much, I think the actual SOA cuts some people are wearing are ill advised, but T-shirts? Tons of them out there. Just not so many with the bottom rockers I listed. Likewise I think an actual 1% patch holder would be less likely to make an issue of it than some of the “support” types out there, but that’s just my sense of things and may not be accurate. I’m not a biker (although I have a couple of friends both vets like me who do ride) so I never wind up in biker bars or anything. That said I am aware that this SOA stuff is an issue for some (google’ing around that is how I came across this board)so I do take that into account.

    Not being a biker I had not heard of the IOMC until I saw it referenced here. LOL. It strikes me that you 1% guys are in this respect victims of your own notoriety as it were. By that I mean there is likely some correlation between the success/popularity of the SOA show and the explosive growth of the IOMC over the last few years. I think the genie is out of the bottle as far as 3 piece patches go. Joseph Stalin is quoted as having said that “Quantity has a quality all it’s own”, and the sheer number of bodies on bikes wearing 3 piece patches may make it counterproductive for actual 1%’ers to force that issue with people on anything like a productive basis. Someone made reference to non-1%’ers like IOMC being likely to be legally armed even if they are not cops. I do not think it would take many confrontations before that became true even if it wasn’t already. Once again just my take on it.

  358. Glenn S. Says:

    Bob, sounds like you’ve had an exciting life. I have too, but then I got too old for it, and my health had took a turn for the worse. So I tried the citizen/yuppie thing. Once the newness wore off, I was bored to tears, amd maybe had a touch of PTSD symptoms from the exciting years (maybe a little too aggressive when people got too close to me, or gave me any shit). Then surgery made me feel better, and I remembered that I’d always wanted a motorcycle. So I bought one and learned to ride it at age 50. Nowadays, I wake up every morning, excited with the awareness that I can hop on my Superglide and ride away my troubles. It fills the hole, and somehow my stress and irritation with a world I’m not suited for just melts away. The people I’ve met, or renewed acquaintance with, don’t get too close and don’t give me any shit. On my part, I have learned and abided by the customs and etiquite, which seem pretty much common sense to me. One of those customs is that, just as I wouldn’t want to hang around the local VFW post wearing a fake medal of honor and purple heart, or even a tee shirt that says “USMC” when I’ve never been a Marine, I wouldn’t wear a fake three-piece cut or “club” tee shirt either.

    You should get a bike, Bob. You sound like somebody that would appreciate it. At least keep it in mind if one day in the future, you find “normal” life boring and recollections of a gunfight seem nostalgic. My bike has been one of two of the most and best life changing experiences I’ve had (the first getting off the hard dope). On my bike, I feel like I’m flying, and I feel like a free man should feel, closer to the world yet separate, a master of my destiny, stronger than I was at 21, bigger than the part of the world that wants to close in on me. You sound like a smart guy. You’ll figure out the etiquate and the whys.

    Today, I took the day off work. Some friends are in from out of town, on their bikes, and we’re gonna ride all day and then do bike night. I cannot think of anything more perfect to do with a day unless it would be to string several of them together and go much further. I would not trade my life for anyone else’s and that’s pretty goddamn good for a middle aged ex-convict, ex-junkie with Hep C.

  359. Bob Says:

    Glenn C.: Both of my vet bro’s who ride tell me the same thing, I need a bike…..

    I’m not a BMF. I just shoot a lot. My job description is a lot fancier than “be prepared and willing to shoot anyone needs shooting” but that’s what it comes down to, and while 10ga and other no doubt fit that description as well I’ll wager we train at it it a bit more than they do, never mind 75% of a year in an environment where it’s a constant possibility.

  360. ruffrider Says:

    Oh shit. Bob must be CIA.


  361. Caretaker Says:

    Naaah… Atf. We all know those guys shoot anything that moves. Dog,cat,fish,…


  362. 10Gauge Says:


    As I have already told are much safer than you obviously feel…I do not know any man who would act “aggressively” towards an insignificant especially with his family. I walk tall and proud and am comfortable and confident in all surroundings….and in ALL of my life I have never backed down from a perceived threat…weather out trained, out gunned, or out numbered…I guess thats the really scary thing aint it?

    Good luck with those verbal commands…Hell I don’t even listen to my Ol lady.


  363. Bob Says:

    Nope, just a contractor. Work with a lot of guys who ride, no 1%’ers though. That whole criminal record thing tends to get in the way of being granted a security clearance.

    And like anyone in the gun culture, I am no fan of ATF anymore than I am of organized crime masquerading as “just a bunch of guys who like to ride their bikes”. If the shoe fits….and if not, don’t be offended by something that doesn’t apply. While I view much of what Dobbins, Queen, et al have done as entrapment, by the same token they can’t get you if you don’t do what they ask of you. “Hey bro, get me a machine gun”, LOL. Right.

    Dog shooting Iraqi style.

  364. DocB Says:

    Dear Bob

    10G hit the nail on the head in his last two posts. Nobody threatened you. You aren’t in any danger and probably won’t be from any of us.
    You stumbled in here and haven’t a clue who you’re talking to.
    If you need a gun in our presence you’re probably in a lot more trouble than what a gun will get you out of anyway.


  365. RVN69 Says:

    Don’t you love how he wanders in here, give us shit about a fictional TV show, tells us what a badass gunfighter he is and he doesn’t even know who this audience is. You, Sled Tramp and 10Guage have all given him respect he probably doesn’t deserve. Unless he considers ignoring him some kind of deadly threat he’s probably gonna be disappointed when no one talks to him when he wears his “special” shirt.

    “Sometimes the majority just means all the fools are on the same side.”

  366. rollinnorth Says:

    Time to shun the troll!

  367. rollinnorth Says:

    Great quote! Thanks

  368. DocB Says:

    “when he wears his “special” shirt”
    Yeah, Right, who gives a shit


  369. JED Says:

    Don’t worry Bob, I’m not going to hurt you or embarrss you in front lf your family for wearing your SOA shirt. You’re not even a blip on my radar. Start acting like a badass in your pirate suit and that’s another story…

  370. YYZ Skinhead Says:


    Great quote. “Sometimes the majority just means all the fools are on the same side.”

    Not to derail the thread, but I saw this the other night and it reminded me of you and your post about visiting the Wall. I always dig your posts but that particular entry (I can’t recall which thread), and your reply to my Randy Weaver rant in this thread, were profoundly moving. Here you go: REMEMBERING VIETNAM: THE WALL AT 25

    Rebel, if this post is too OT for this thread please move it to the Dialogical Saloon or wherever. I just want to be sure RVN69 sees it.

    YYZ Skinhead

  371. Pig Says:

    Hey Bob,
    Your first post made me chuckle. It was ballsy; naive, but ballsy. You obviously didn’t have a clue who you were talking to but you weren’t afraid to lay it on the line. Then you kept popping back in and I realized that your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance. You were “google’ing” the Sons of Anarchy and came across this website and thought it prudent to start telling these guys how to run their show? WTF?! You don’t even ride and you want to give bikers advice on how to be bikers? Go away Bob. Thanks for your service. Now shut the fuck up and go away.

    As much of a douchebag as Bob is, I do agree with him on one point. I think you guys are victims of your own success. You spent years and a lot of effort convincing the rest of the world that you aren’t criminal organizations. Toy runs and charitable donations, hell, our local Harley shop has a book for sale written by Sonny Barger himself on how to enjoy your ride or something. You showed us all a picture of a bunch of rough looking, freedom loving, hard men on motorcycles; guys who have zero tolerance for political correctness and bullshit. You Gents are essentially the Founding Fathers of the Motorcycle world as we know it today. However, now that we’ve all bought into it, I think that lifestyle is appealing to more people than you expected; even some of us low-life cops. (We’re not all Jay Dobyns or William Queen and some of us don’t like the ATF or FBI or any of the other alphabet-soup federal agencies anymore than you do. Well, you probably hate them more than I do, but I still have no use for them).

    One of the reasons you guys are seeing illegitimate groups like IO show up is that you have given them (us) no other options. For example, I’m sold. I dig most everything about the lifestyle. The things I don’t dig don’t really concern me and are none of my business anyway. I’ve been on two wheels for years and am getting tired of tagging on to other Riding Associations, RC’s and MC’s. They’re all good folks but if you’re not a member, you’ll always be an outsider. I shy away from the RC’s and RA’s because anyone who can afford the dues and has any kind of bike is thrown a patch to wear and given equal say. They don’t earn the patch and therefore it has no value. It isn’t worth anything. Not for me, thanks anyway. There are several Veterans groups who do prospect their members. I’m a veteran and some of those groups appeal to me. I don’t know if those guys accept Law Enforcement or not but if they do, you have said in this post that ANY club that even allows one cop in it is a LEMC and is therefore disrespectful. Well, shit, I want to join but I also want to be an asset rather than a liability. I can’t start my own with any semblance of respect because you won’t give any guidance on how to do that. As much as you would like me to, I can’t just sell my bike and go away because this thing has got its hooks in me bad. Rebel’s stories of the road have me damn near ready to quit my job, ass up, and head for all these places that I have never heard of before. Oatman, Sundance, the Devils Tower, I haven’t been to them yet. Plus I never was much good at giving up and quitting.

    All I really expect to get back from this post are the same old cop-bashing comments; and that’s fine. But again, I respectfully ask you, what are we supposed to do? With no other acceptable options open to them, what else can cops be expected to do except to band together, pull out their badges, and do their own thing? What would you do?

  372. sled tramp Says:

    PIG- (LMAO,good handle.At least yer up front)
    I hate cops for a reason.Pretty much every time I’ve been messed with,I was minding my own business or it was something that should have been ignored but was pushed because they could.For the record,I’m democratic as Hell, equally dislike bullys and people who think they’re special or better than someone else so your group isn’t alone (maybe just disliked a bit more).
    I absolutely hate to say this but you made some good points.I actually got a good chuckle or two out of it.Please do not write more posts like that as I feel guilty about enjoying it.My mom would be disappointed that she didn’t raise me better.
    MAN that pisses me off that a cop wrote something decent….I’m gonna go and kick a puppy or something now…geeeezzzz…..

  373. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    Pigs get away with killing a sickly USMC Veteran

    YYZ Skinhead

  374. James Alfred Quiroz Says:

    Everyone needs to chill out with this “protocol” thing. There’s an Iron Order MC in Frisco and they seem like cool guys. So what if they didn’t ask the Hells Angels for permission. I think HAMC has given them respect. It’s kinda like when you stand up to the bully and punch him. The bully from there on respects you.

  375. James Alfred Quiroz Says:

    Everyone needs to chill out with this “protocol” thing. There’s an Iron Order MC in Frisco and they seem like cool guys. So what if they didn’t ask the Hells Angels for permission. I think HAMC has given them respect. It’s kinda like when you stand up to the bully and punch him. The bully from there on respects you. ..

  376. RVN69 Says:

    ” YYZ Skinhead Says:
    May 3rd, 2012 at 11:04 am

    YYZ,Thanks for the information.

    “YYZ Skinhead Says:
    May 3rd, 2012 at 5:20 pm
    Pigs get away with killing a sickly USMC Veteran”

    Fucking murdering motherfuckers, man couldn’t walk any distance without running out of breath and they say they couldn’t subdue him without shooting him. Cops got more lienent rules of engagement than the military.

    Glad you liked the quote, I have it on a T-shirt from Wicked Jester.

    “I am not an angel, nor am I the devil, I am the bastard stepchild of both.”

  377. Glenn S. Says:

    Piggy: Here’s reason #49,367 that I hate cops.

    Just another in the everyday occurances where the cops needlessly take actions that dramatically alter someone’s life for the worse. In a nutshell, the cops pulled a car because the windshield was cracked. They found that the driver, a woman, had her license suspended for unpaid traffic tickets. So they arrested this danger to society. Her juvenile son was with her and had a bag of pot. And he was understandably upset that his mom was going to jail, and swung on the cops. So the cops took him down and beat the shit out of him. Then they arrested him for not one but two counts of resisting arrest (a 10 year felony, as I recall, in SC). In the “comments” section, the sheep cheer the pigs. This sort of shit happens thousands of times a day.

    Seriously, the cops couldn’t subdue a juvenile without kicking his ass? And they just had to arrest mommy for shit related to unpaid traffic tickets? I hate anybody that would persue such a life’s work, inflicting misery wherever he goes, and thinking of it as a noble calling or a discount on motel rooms.

  378. Rebel Says:

    Dear James Alfred Quiroz,

    I think it might be overstating it a little bit to say that the Iron Order Motorcycle Club stood up to the Hells Angels and punched them.


  379. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    “Alcatraz Crew”? Sacramento Law Memorial Run? And they still maintain that they aren’t a LEMC? My family are all Southerners, so I can smell pork cookin’ from a mile away and the IOMC stinks of it (and I don’t mean barbecue, either).

    YYZ Skinhead

  380. sherides Says:

    Pig asks:

    “But again, I respectfully ask you, what are we supposed to do?”

    How about just ride your bikes without pretending that you are anything but a LE Riding Club?

    Cops are Cops.
    Outlaw Bikers are Outlaw Bikers

    It disgusts me that LE wishes to emulate the very thing they are trying to eliminate from existance.

  381. Pig Says:

    Seriously Glenn S? You get offended and cry “injustice” when you are called criminals just because a small number of guys who happen to be Outlaw Bikers commit crimes, yet when some cop who I’ve never met, does something stupid in a state I’ve never been to, you want to hang that shit on me? Which is it man? Is that way of doing business bullshit or not?

    I can’t give you the respect of all Law Enforcement; it’s not mine to give. All I can give is my respect. I can’t stop asshole cops from messing with you or making unethical decisions. All I can do is not pull that shit myself and to protest it if I see it happening in my department. You do it how you want. You’re a grown man and that’s your prerogative. I will continue to judge men by their own actions.

    On a side note, I wonder if Sosebee in the above article paused to consider whether or not Moye might be a “sickly USMC Veteran” before pushing that blade into his stomach. Or hypothetically what would have happened if Moye had had his son with him who, upon seeing his father stabbed, jumped up and punched Sosebee in the mouth. I’m sure that Sosebee would have stopped to consider the lad’s age and then subdued the juvenile in a non-violent manner, tousled his hair and sent him on his way.

    James Alfred Quiroz: Rebel is right. Moye didn’t stand up to a bully and punch him. He was stupid and disrespectful and wound up in the fetal position, bleeding on the floor.

  382. 10Gauge Says:


    I do not talk to cops because nothing good comes from it..but I am so sick of this, “One of the reasons you guys are seeing illegitimate groups like IO show up is that you have given them (us) no other options” BULLSHIT.

    IT IS VERY SIMPLE..You do not have to wear a three piece to have a brotherhood. HELL YOU DON’T HAVE TO WEAR A PATCH AT ALL. There are plenty of brotherhoods that wear t-shirts out of respect to MCs. And I am talking about real brotherhoods.

    What are you supposed to do? Man come on… Just live with your decisions… Do your OWN thing…And DON’T play dress up on your days off…AND MOST CERTAINLY don’t expect to be respected by the REAL DEAL. Men who come from clubs that have fought, died, and given up their freedom for their cuts.

    “With no other acceptable options open to them, what else can cops be expected to do except to band together, pull out their badges, and do their own thing?” That is the deal you do not do your own thing…you mock/copy…OURS…KNOWING FULL WELL the tradition, heritage, and protocall BEHIND IT…and it is DISRESPECTFUL…and you KNOW IT…and you DO IT ANYWAYS…That to me Pig is the definition of arrogance.

    Same shit different day,

  383. rollinnorth Says:

    Awkwardly he trolls along, trolls along…

  384. Rebel Says:

    Dear 10Guage,

    All most cop clubs have to do is called themselves LEMCs instead of MCs. I don’t think anybody has any problem with, for example, the Choir Boys or the Blue Knights. They are who they are. They take care of their own. They don’t cause trouble. And frankly, if I see one of them broken down on the side of the road I’m stopping.

    I personally don’t appreciate clubs who intend to parody outlaw and family clubs and who then pull their police rank when somebody tells them they are out of line. They should wear a cube that says AMC for “asshole motorcycle club.” The most obnoxious AMC is the Iron Pigs who go out looking for trouble and then either cheat or squeal like little piggies when they find it. I haven’t had any personal problems with the Iron Order AMC but I have been hearing people complain about them for years.


  385. 10Gauge Says:


    Adding an LE cube doesn’t make it right…they should stick to the knee boots and jockey pants…No fucking way am I stopping.


  386. BadMagic Says:

    The best analogy I heard so far was the Vet. one. How would you feel if a non Vet. donned a purple heart, and expected the royal treatment because of it? I don’t know of any Vet.’s that have them that even do that.

    It is usually the people bragging about that they have, or justify themselves that deserve it the least.

    Show up in cammo’s, fine. Play soldier all you want. When you misrepresent yourself as part of something your not, you disrespect those who have paid a much higher price.


  387. Bob Says:

    “Pig Says: You were “google’ing” the Sons of Anarchy and came across this website and thought it prudent to start telling these guys how to run their show? WTF?!”

    No, I had heard some stuff about 1%’ers taking SOA stuff off people. THAT was the whole impetus. The rest is just my outlook. It is what it is, as is yours, as is theirs.

    It’s been informative. Thanks all.

  388. rollinnorth Says:

    “…had heard some stuff…” Yeah, right. Likely learned to say that along with, “…based on my training and experience…”

  389. Gringo Says:

    i think im gonna get drunk and throw rocks at cars today.. here piggy piggy!

  390. RickkciR Says:

    I know of an entire ‘town’ that was patched over by IOMC last year…. they did NOTHING to earn their patches…. .had me scratching my head then.. and now

  391. Black Says:

    These guys have alot more to worry about than the hells angels. This was just one incident.

  392. onikeeg Says:

    BadMagic well said couldn’t agree more.

  393. AVAGOVFFV Says:

    Quote: Bob Says:
    April 30th, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    “Regarding the SOA phenomenon, I do understand how it could piss off someone in the 1% world to see someone who is not part of that culture wearing an actual cut (vest/jacket, embroidered patch/rockers) but I think you might want to reign it in a bit for the T-shirt thing. There’s just too many of them out there for you to be making an issue out of it all the time.

    Past that, if you happen to see someone wearing a long sleeve SOA T with a bottom rocker that says “Baghdad”,”Herat”, or “Afghanistan” on it, while the person may or may not be a fan of the show, they more than likely have that shirt because they served there in the military or work there as a security contractor. Or it was given to them by someone who got it there. The “Sons of Anarchy” is more a reference to “our” group and where we work than a nod to yours. An inside joke if you will. The bottom rockers simply say where you’ve been.

    While not speaking for anyone but myself, I doubt if any of us care any more about what you think of us wearing a shirt like I’ve described than we care about what you do and how you live in your 1%’er world. However I can promise you one thing. Anyone who approaches me, especially if I’m with my family, regarding that shirt in anything even faintly resembling an aggressive manner is gonna get a real good look at the front side of my front sight. Any sudden moves or failure to obey my verbal commands and they’re gonna get shot. Right away. A lot of times. And I have enough for all your friends too. I spend 9 months of the year downrange, and when I come home I will wear whatever the fuck I want to as far as T-shirts go. I like that shirt so I wear it a lot. And I will have zero problem articulating why I thought you were a credible threat to my safety.

    Just so you know. ;) Y’all ride safe now…”

    Sounds like the Boob works in the defense industry and more than likely “down range” at the National Training Center at Fort Irwin.

    Nothing like idle threats by ball less loudmouth punk. There are lots of people that carry guns but very few people for that matter got the huevos to pull the trigger when confronted.

    On another note after picking up my kid for ball practice I stumbled across a IOAMC member from Tennessee. As I pulled up next to him in my cage I told him that he was a long way from home by about 2000 miles and he may want to get headed that way because in the southwest there are those that pose and those that eat posers on sight, he kinda chuckled as he sat on his scooter pissing himself alone.

    Viva Los Vagos

  394. bob Says:

    and let’s not assume that all bearers of “Herat” ,”Afghanistan” and “Baghdad” bottom rocker SOA merch were there or have DD214’s to prove it.If there was a shitload of Stolen Valor with regard to Vietnam,there’s probably right much with current deployments,too.

  395. Dyna Says:

    OK, I thought I would take a moment after reading and reflecting on this thread to put some things out there regarding the IOMC, Brotherhood and whatnot.

    First I will say I am not a Patch holder of any club, I have ridden and partied with several clubs over the years however I was never a prospect just a friend … as much as one can be.

    Recently I have ridden with and seen in bars on several occasions the local Iron Order guys, I have spoken with all of them that I have seen out of curiosity (some of it driven by this site) to see what all the fuss was about.

    My experience was interesting, I saw them for the first time in a small bar that I ride to every once in a while and there were four of them shooting pool in a back corner of the establishment, I approached and talked to them and learned that the club will accept anyone that is not a felon, who rides a cruiser style bike over 650cc and who is seen as a “good fit” in the eyes of the members a 100 percent vote is required to prospect and to patch in.

    I saw one of their officers chatting with a member of the dominant 1% club in the area and there seemed to be no problems they drank together for about thirty minutes before the IO guys left

    The next time we met, there were a lot more of them 25 by my count. I asked each of them in conversation what they do and I was surprised to find only one LEO the rest were just regular guys, construction workers, mechanics, soldiers, people that like to ride.
    That night they invited me to a party the following weekend and I met in total around sixty of them from different chapters and again only one other LEO than the previous time.

    The percentage from what I have experienced was that about 3 percent of the guys in the club were LEO.

    I asked the VP of a local chapter one question and I will post it and the response I got as well.
    Question: Why don’t you go to the COC and get permission to fly that bottom rocker?
    Response: First because we are in America and many of my brothers and I fought for this country in the military, I will never ask permission to exercise the rights my friends died to protect. Second, because a few of my friends have become LEO’s we would never be allowed by the COC anyway.

    He seemed genuine about his response to my questions, let me know that they do not recruit anyone but that to be a hang around you have to contact them and that there are very stringent rules for prospecting, he also told me that each chapter has its own requirements but there were rules that were kind of universal, I met several patch holders some said that they had prospected for six or eight months some less, prospects seemed always busy and working for the respect of the members that were around. I heard one Patch Holder tell a Prospect that “ they would never ask him to do anything that they had not or would not do themselves.”

    Rules, Laws:

    Every club has Rules, the notion that because a club is law abiding somehow diminishes their legitimacy is a false argument. Name a club that does not have By Laws or rules … You cannot because like it or not all MC’s have rules.


    Earlier in this thread there was a comment about Brotherhood and how you stand by a brother no matter what, I disagree I have brothers whom I grew up with and with whom I share blood and if either of them were to molest a child, rape a woman, murder someone in cold blood. I would put them down myself. I love my brothers but there are some things in this world that should not be tolerated.
    As for the Notion that 1% clubs are the ones that offer a “true” brotherhood where you would protect each other at all costs, Easy research will show you that in the criminal world (not the MC world but the criminal element within it) It is easy to find examples of Patch Holders, Brothers killing each other over money or drugs, Even found a few examples of “Brothers” killing each other because they were witnesses to other killings. I can forgive a brother for not re paying a loan to me but KILLING HIM OVER MONEY? some fuckin brotherhood. You also cannot find a major case where the so called brotherhood fails to protect each other and some turn states evidence.

    The Mongols in 98’ and 08’ the Vagos in 98’ the Sons of Silence in 01’ the Warlocks in 03’ the Hells Angels in 94’ and 98’ and 02’ and 07’ the Pagans in 09’ the Devils Diciples in 09’ the Outlaws in 10’.

    Easily researchable each club and date represents a major case where patch holders testified against other patch holders.
    You can talk all you want about Loyalty and Brotherhood among the 1% clubs but when the shit really hits it many of them collapse sacrificing their so called brothers for freedom.

  396. 10Gauge Says:


    You get in where you fit in…

    Based on your post it looks like you found a “good fit”…

    Good luck with that!

    As far as the rest of your post it makes no sense so I can’t even begin to address it…Just the same drivel that has been spouted for years and DEMONSTRATES TOTAL DISRESPECT.


  397. jrnr Says:


    Well said!!



  398. Rebel Says:

    Dear 10Gauge,

    At the moment I am wearing a tee-shirt that proclaims “Motorcycle Clubs Are Not Street Gangs.”


  399. 10Gauge Says:


    Yes..but do you still have your SOA shirt hung upside down on the wall over your computer?


  400. Hose-a 1% Says:

    10 GAUGE,I was one of 73 co-defendents in a bullshit case amd no one was a snitch nor testified against a brother.I know that can’t always be said but I’m proud of this fact.Brotherhood can and should be first and formost I.M.O..unfortunatly it doesn’t always work that way.
    Hose-a 1%er Pagan’s M.C. retired F.T.F.

  401. 10guage Says:

    Hose-a 1 percenter,

    I could not agree with you more.

    Respect to all who stand strong in the face of federally fabricated crimes and HARD time,

  402. Rebel Says:

    Dear 10Gauge,

    No but it might still be around here somewhere. I bought the thing at a run about three years ago. I was intoxicated at the time and my intentions were something like I was going to somehow insult the show by wearing this bogus piece of cloth. Don’t cross examine me about the logic of it. In my heart, I’m a moron. I should find that shirt. I need to wash my motorcycle.


  403. observer Says:

    New T-Shirt: “In my heart, I’m a moron.” The “heart” part will get the chicks all gushy, then the “moron” part will confuse them…just where you want them.

  404. 10guage Says:



  405. Phuquehed Says:

    Prospecting for IO = 10 days of sitting around trying to figure out if your colors are white on black or black on white, feeling antsy because soon you’re gonna be a real badass, feeling tough because you now got a pig in your group to back your pussy ass up whenever you need it.

  406. JIM666 Says:

    Phuquehed Says:
    May 15th, 2012 at 3:40 am
    Prospecting for IO = 10 days of sitting around trying to figure out if your colors are white on black or black on white, feeling antsy because soon you’re gonna be a real badass, feeling tough because you now got a pig in your group to back your pussy ass up whenever you need it

  407. JIM666 Says:

    SHOULD have said “now thats funny”

  408. 10Gauge Says:


    What I meant to say after too much Dago red is:

    How could I forget that…it was a great story and the logic even made half sense to me at the time. Not only can I be a moron but I also have first hand experience with the desert heat, my constantly running internal witty dialog (that at times even I don’t fully “get”), mixed with some mild exhaustion, somewhere around ten beers, and two shots of whiskey.

    My ol lady is a fan of Rebel’s Rides as well,

  409. IrishDragon Says:

    Looks like were not the only ones.


  410. observer Says:


  411. Stevo Says:

    Here’s how a REAL club rols hahahahaha

  412. JED Says:

    … I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

  413. Hose-a 1% Says:


  414. Mosin Says:

    This crap is showing up all over NorCal. Next thing, they’ll have a bar-be-cue at Sac Harley. Maybe those Mayans were right, place is going t hell so bad might be time to hit the reset button.

  415. whitefxrp Says:

    Followed Stevos link as it had a uk reference,was really surprised to see from the IO website that they list a chapter in Wales ! I live in Wales and ain’t seen or heard of them,even though they claim to have been here for two years……..I was also a little sick in my mouth watching the video, Naked Dave ????? WTF !!!!

  416. Red&Gold Says:

    True story…I’ll keep it short…by vote the clubs in our COC have elected to Not allow clubs that allow LEOs as members to join. IO showed up and pretty much whined about wanting to be there…They were told they could not be in the actual closed meeting because clubs with LEO were not allowed…our COC attorny even talked to them…they left, without even standing up…when the meeting broke and everyone was leaving the black and whites were everywhere!! The popo’s pulled over and ticketed everyone they could…lol…FTP…FTF

    B.F.F.B GFBD

  417. Red&Gold Says:

    Oh, by the way…You will appear much wiser than you actually are if you take Rebels advise on ‘gangland’ and their out and out lies…The Bandidos NEVER recruited “street gang members”…without bikes or otherwise. I won’t discuss club business, but we don’t recruit at all…we don’t have to…

  418. IO NOT a Cop Says:

    I’ve spent that last 30 min or so reading through these posts and have decided to add my 2 cents. I am an IO Patch holder and I am NOT a cop. Yes, the leadership allows LE to patch into the Club. Personally I don’t dig it but what can you do. But just because we have bacon in our ranks does not make us ALL pork by products. The same as not every 1%’er is a criminal not every IO is perfect angel OR a pussy. Now I’m not on here trying to pose as something I’m not. I am not a “bad ass tough guy” but I’m am a ‘biker’ I eat, breath, and shit motorcycles. I also chop and build my own. Why am I with the IO and not a ‘respected’ club? Because as much as I love my brothers and would stand by them come what may (yes, some of us are willing to go knuckles) my family comes first. The IO respects and understands that. I have absolutely no problem with any other club. Whenever I see another club at an event or a gas station i always show respect. Even though I’m often told to screw off. Not really sure what my point is here except maybe to say you should not judge an entire group by the actions of a few. LE has been doing it to 1% clubs for years so they should know better than anyone you can’t believe everythIng you hear or read. My brother and I have been in a few tough spots and we have NEVER reached for our cell phones. We may not come out on top everytime but you’ll damn sure know you were in a fight.
    OK that’s enough ranting from a d-bag I’m sure non of you respect. But you all have my respect, on line and face to face until you prove you don’t want or deserve it. Then we dance!
    Nobody s

  419. Nobody Special Says:

    I’ve spent that last 30 min or so reading through these posts and have decided to add my 2 cents. I am an IO Patch holder and I am NOT a cop. Yes, the leadership allows LE to patch into the Club. Personally I don’t dig it but what can you do. But just because we have bacon in our ranks does not make us ALL pork by products. The same as not every 1%’er is a criminal not every IO is perfect angel OR a pussy. Now I’m not on here trying to pose as something I’m not. I am not a “bad ass tough guy” but I’m am a ‘biker’ I eat, breath, and shit motorcycles. I also chop and build my own. Why am I with the IO and not a ‘respected’ club? Because as much as I love my brothers and would stand by them come what may (yes, some of us are willing to go knuckles) my family comes first. The IO respects and understands that. And we party like damn rock stars. I have absolutely no problem with any other club. Whenever I see another club at an event or a gas station i always show respect. Even though I’m often told to screw off. Not really sure what my point is here except maybe to say you should not judge an entire group by the actions of a few. LE has been doing it to 1% clubs for years so they should know better than anyone you can’t believe everythIng you hear or read. My brother and I have been in a few tough spots and we have NEVER reached for our cell phones. We may not come out on top everytime but you’ll damn sure know you were in a fight.
    OK that’s enough ranting from a d-bag I’m sure non of you respect. But you all have my respect, on line and face to face until you prove you don’t want or deserve it. Then we dance!
    Nobody special.

  420. Arctic Wrench Says:

    It appears the biggest issue you 1% guys have with these IO cats is that you feel they didn’t “earn” the right to wear a three piece cut. One poster wrote something to the affect of 1% have bled, died, and given up their freedom to earn their cuts. Am I right or did I misunderstand? With NO disrespect intended I have a question. Who was the enemy? I only ask because, as a Vet, I have bled and, in a sense, had given up my freedom and even had some brothers die to protect OUR Nation. So do I have a right to rock a three piece Cut? Because I am interested in getting involved with an MC. I’m not a cop but I try to live my life as law abiding as possible (with the occasional hick-up and couple days in county) so I seriously doubt I’m 1%er material but I do miss and want the feeling of brotherhood, knowing that right or wrong your six is covered. Maybe I’m just ignorant. Bottom rocker issue aside, From what I have read about the IO they appeal to me. I like what they say they stand for and they look like they like to have good, drunken, clean fun I’m into that. Now this bottom rocker conflict. I don’t really care either way if they wear one or not. But to be 100% honest I feel I HAVE earned the right to wear whatever the hell I want. Maybe that is because I don’t fully understand who the enemy was that you 1%’ers have bled and died fighting, giving you the right to wear a rocker displaying where you are from but I can’t.
    This post is not sarcasm or meant as disrespect. It is a legitimate question.

  421. Red&Gold Says:

    Arctic Wrench…1%ER’s had to then, as they do now, “fight” all kinds of
    “enemies”. From the cop in Nevada in 1979 that threw me in a cell for no reason after illegally searching my person and my scooter, then cut my hair and sprayed me down with a fire hose before telling me to get out of “his” town, to the rough neck in the bar in Texas who got his buddy’s together to “teach those dirty faggots” a lesson… and yes from time to time with other clubs over private matters…club business…we spilled our blood, and that spilled blood in many ways is what was used to pave the way for those who adopted our lifestyle…for those who are free to dress as they like, ride what they like, and go where they like…Yep! Outlaw Clubs bought that right for you with their blood back in the day…That is why we asked people to show a little respect by following tradition and protocol before firing up that little weekend riding group and sewing on all those bad ass patches they had someone in Taiwan make up for them…IO has NEVER gone about doing it the right way so they have no respect from me…We paid for your right to be who you are, or pretend to be, in so many ways that you will never have to deal with… the reason you can ride your chopper up and down the road on the weekend is because we paid the price…we went through the times when if you rode a chopper 5 miles to the store it would result in numerous stops, illegal searches, and, depending on jurisdiction,being locked up for as long as they could hold you without charges, and then told to get out of town…I have had Brothers in my club that are clean and sober and have been for decades…Brothers I KNOW do not do drugs or have anything to do with them, arrested because drugs were found in their saddle bags!!Gangland may not be honest about how those drugs got there, but I will: They were planted. I have had cops go to my work and ask my employer why they had a known member of a criminal gang working there…they even went to my wife’s employer and asked them why they had the wife of a known gang member working there…They have had the gang task force come to my home and intimidate my wife trying to get her to tell them…I don’t know what they were trying to get her to say…probably anything so they could twist it and use it to hem me up! I could go on and on with stories of how I have spilled my literal and figurative Blood…some will get it some won’t and I don’t care which train of thought you sway towards. Being a 1%ER does not have to do with being a criminal at all.. certainly not in my cub…It has to do with being a man. When you reject tradition in our world and ignore protocol, you are a chicken shit punk in my world…when you stand up and do it the time honored way, you earn respect in my world.

    The reasons we hate to see people just make up their own shit, sew it on and fly it, is many fold…Just one of reasons that NO ONE seems to realize is that most citizens do not see any difference in colors…everyone flying any patch is often thought of as being a member of the dominate…or preeminent if you prefer…club. So a group of jackasses make their little bad ass back piece up, throw a couple rockers on, and go down town to raise some hell!! And who gets the blame? Who has every member harassed for months, maybe years? Who has the gang task force sitting across from their house day after day after day because of that hell raising downtown that that little start up club did to show how “bad” they were?? Yeah…that’s right…the dominate club in the area, because the citizens see no difference and tell the cops it was the dominate club…so, yeah…we do like to know who is sewing shit on so we know who to talk to if there is a problem…Going to the dominate club will actually prevent a whole bunch of misunderstanding and troubles…that is how it became a tradition for new clubs to do so…of course now a days many johnny come lately clubs make excuses for why they “shouldn’t have to” do it the time honored way…the fact is, they are just chicken shit.

    To those who believed they paid their “dues” by being a cop or service in the military…those who demand that they have earned that 3 piece patch because of accomplishments that have nothing to do with the lifestyle they used to hate but now embrace…To those who say those who came before them,the 1%ER who paved the way, the 1%ER who bled at the end of a billy club just for what they wore and the freedom they expressed,(a freedom they won for all who ride a certain class of bike), …To those who say they have earned the same thing those of us who had to fight for our right to wear our colors, and somehow believe we should some how just accept some johnny come lately club because they did something in their other life that makes them “feel” like they earned that 3 piece patch, I asked this question. Have I earned the right to jump into your fraternity organization because of what I have accomplished elsewhere in my life? Can I just take your earned army ribbons…your CIB…Your purple heart…and wear them because I “feel” like I earned it?? Or do I owe it to those who have gone before…those who have paved the way…to follow their rules, their traditions to earn the right to wear that “uniform”? Why do you feel more privileged when you want to come in to my world? Do it RIGHT…as tradition dictates…or don’t do it at all.

  422. Red&Gold Says:

    Oh…one more thing artic wench…there are many MANY service oriented clubs that we ride with and have great respect for, even inviting them to private runs…They are 1 or 2 piece clubs, because they understand tradition and protocol…look for one of those for your Brotherhood…they are Respected clubs, and that is what any real man wants to be part of…

  423. Arctic Wrench Says:

    To Red&Gold
    Thanks for the reply. Everything you wrote makes perfect sense. Your comment/question… “Have I earned the right to jump into your fraternity organization because of what I have accomplished elsewhere in my life?” really struck a chord, I’m even a little ashamed of my Ignorant post now. I can’t believe i didn’t see it that way before.
    Well shit, I guess for now I’ll keep rolling solo.
    P.S I live on my bike. Not what I would consider a weekend warrior.
    Thanks again for your patient and informative reply.
    Much Respect

  424. Not Surprised Says:


    Best rendition I’ve ever read. No one with any sense could read that and not understand.

  425. swampy Says:

    Yes, every bit of what Red&Gold said. Not only is it a sign of respect to others to go through correct protocol. It is also a sign of SELF-respect to go through correct protocol when starting an M.C. That says alot for the “caliber” of the club and individuals wanting to start a club. I think those Iron Oder guys don’t get either of those two points of view.

    Rebel, I know I’ve already mentioned Paul “Country” Rhea’s book: Evolution of an Outlaw Biker. However, I felt the need to suggest it to anyone wanting to understand the “old school” way of how clubs operate and opened the world of motorcycling. I met Country 20-22 years ago, I believe he’s in his seventies now – still rides and still has his patch. I have finished vol.1 of his short stories and discovered a little history too. I believe he had to create a publisher(Blastoff Publications) to get the book released. Although, one might find it easier to search the title. Some of Country’s stories are hilarious; some not.

    With the highest regards and respect,

  426. Arctic Says:

    Thanks for the book recomendation Swampy; I’ll pick that one up. Again, I’m a little ashamed of my post now (wish Rebel would delete it) I am in no way new to the motorcycle world. However, I am new to the ‘biker’ culture. While in the service I was part of an “elite” unit. NOT Special Forces or anything remotely close to that but we had a unique mission and you had to earn your stripes, so to speak. If EVER i had seen someone wearing a cover flashing our logo that wasn’t a past or present member, same branch of service or not, that cover would have immediately become mine and an ass whopping would follow. I don’t have a need or really even a desire to wear a bottom rocker. I was just curious why the discontent towards the IO. I’ve met a few around here and they seem like decent cats. BUT… I 100% relate to what Red&Gold wrote and frankly wouldn’t want to me a part of any organization that doesnt follow tradition or protocal. I believe very stongly in Tradition!

  427. JAMES Says:

    IRON ORDER is such a joke, hiding behind the badge trying to play hardcore biker, everyone I have seen approached immediately scrambled to get out his badge to show he is a cop to save his ass from what could be a possibility of an ass whipping. Yet they want to live in our world thinking the real clubs are going to accept or respect them because they choose to wear and flaunt a 3 piece patch, I know of no one who even speaks to them or associates with these bunch of undercover phonies, they have the rep for being a joke and will always be just that, just once would like to see one hold his mud without throwing that badge out there threatening a person with ,” I got this badge and am a cop so if you touch me I will see you arrested for assault on a police officer” more than once they have been called cowards hiding behind the badge,and I do in my heart believe they wear what they do and the colors just to see if they can get a certain club to kick the shit out of them so the FEDS can try to pull some more of their hen house ways to fuck with the certain clubs since nothing else has worked, SCREW IRON ORDER , I can at least have some respect for the WILD PIGS, or BLUE KNIGHTS for at least they are up front with who they are and not like these bunch of rarely seen, bunch of cop callers, who want to play dress up trying to fit in, they are the sadist bunch of cowards I have yet to see.

  428. 10Gauge Says:

    I can only speak for myself but no need to feel ashamed for your question…from my perspective it evoked one of the best explanations I have ever read and heard for that matter…Especially considering how often this issue comes up…I even started an explanation and walked away from it because I am sick of it and had other shit to do…So consider yourself lucky to have learned something from someone who obviously knows what the fuck they are talking about and took the time to explain it to you…and pain free to boot! In our world there is not much worse than a motherfucker who is highly opinionated but completely uninformed. Since you are new to this “culture” as you put it, you can now at least start off on the right foot.
    Thank you for your service…sincerely.
    Strength, Respect, Honor

  429. Alex Says:

    After spending countless hours reading through these posts I have to admit, I was thoroughly entertained. I want to preface what I am about to say by assuring you all that I am not a cop, nor have I ever been involved with an MC. As a paramedic I do however hang with some guys that are in a popular MC that consists entirely of firemen and medics…definitely not one percenters. Almost a year ago to this day, one of my good buddies was t-boned on his sportbike by a guy riding a full-dresser…who also happened to be a member of a very popular one percenter MC. The guy was drunk and warned my friend not to report this incident to the police. This guy, along with three of his fellow club members threatened my buddy and promptly sped off…not providing any insurance information. Naturally, my buddy reported a hit-and-run auto accident to the police, as his bike had sustained substantial damage as a result of the accident. Well, the cops ended up investigating the accident and subsequently exchanged information between the two partie. The damage bike was repaired and no charges were sought as my buddy refused to prosecute. Well, fast forward two weeks later, my buddy was leaving the parking lot of the same bar where the original accident had occurred and he was blocked in by a few bikers who were displaying their colors. My buddy was severly beaten…leaving him with a busted up bike, broken ribs, a broken orbital and nose. The same guy who t-boned him two weeks prior somehow recognized him and initiated an assualt as means of payback. Now personally, had it been me, I would have went back to that bar with a few friends to start some trouble, but my buddy is just praying that this whole issue is just over and doesn’t want any more problems. The whole, “I wear a patch and think im a tough guy” is really no different than the mob tactics that uniform cops tend to pull on the general populace. Respect is earned and to be honest, I have absolutely NO respect for these thugs. And it’s always the same ol’ song and dance…a bunch of middle-aged, drunks who don’t possess the physical prowess or conditioning to fight a man one-on-one. They too play dress up…they get tatted up, throw on some colors and stomp around like they own the world. They not only pull this crap at this particular bar, but a strip club that I tend to frequent on a regular basis. Now I know that doesn’t mean every 3-piece patch holder is a punk, but it seems like a lot of them are drawn to that lifestyle as a means to intimidate and control. I also personally had a run-in with a LEMC at Laconia in 2010. Me and my buddies were hanging out, shooting the shit when two “prospects” came over and tried to commandeer our table. They actually had the audacity to tell us to move and when we refused they called over about six of their fellow cop-buddies to try and intimidate us. And these guys looked every bit the part, with full-sleeve tats, beards and three piece patches. Just as we were ready to brawl with them, several NH troopers and sheriff’s deputies arrived and quelled the problem. Fortuantely, the cops actually sided with us and told the LEMC to pound sand. And yes, they tried to pull the whole “I am a brother cop” card. The point is, I have very little respect for either group and I would refuse to be intimidated by either party. I deal with enough crap during my 60+hour workweek, running to shootings, suicides, pushing narcan etc….to worry about what kind of 3 dollar patch someone has on their 20 dollar vest. When I wrap up my workday, I want to ride, I want to party and have a good time with my buddies. I don’t want to be dictated to, I dont want to wear any patch and I sure is hell don’t want to be brawling 5 to 7 days a week.

  430. Red&Gold Says:


    I am so happy the law came to your rescue…lol…it is a lofty goal, and I am equally as happy for you that you’ve attained your goal, and your wish, of not wearing any patch…as for your seemingly many problems with patch holders of every ilk, you hit the nail on the head when you stated ” I have very little respect for either group…” You have no concept of what a club is actually about…

  431. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    Dear Red and Gold:

    I ask these questions with all due respect and with an open mind to any answers you might provide, and realize that you can only answer based on your own experiences and opinions.

    Had Alex’s friend t-boned one of the 1%ers’ bikes instead of the other way around, what might their expectations have been for restitution?

    Had Alex’s friend chosen to approach the 1%ers himself later to get restitution himself rather than reporting the incident (presumably to qualify to collect his insurance), is it likely that they would have been receptive and amenable?


  432. Red&Gold Says:

    alex’s story is bullshit…look at the facts according to him…guy gets t-boned causing major damage, yet the guy who hits him can just ride off…then he has to report it to the cops to get it fixed cause the bike is so fucked up, but the police do not prosecute this bad, bad biker because the guy doesn’t want to prosecute…hit & run is prosecuted by the state, not an individual…if the cops had enough evidence to make the bad guy pay to repair the bike, they had enough to charge him and arrest him…with or without cooperation…and with a 1%ER they sure would have prosecuted and thrown in a charge of “terroristic threatening”…Then this badly damaged bike gets the miraculous “quick healing” of a faith healers tent show…with in that 2 week period the culprit is tracked down, not arrested, but some how made to pay to get the bike fixed,( not enough time to even set a civil/small claims court date let alone settle it) the bike is fixed in the remaining few days and back out on the road to have another unfortunate run in with the same bad guys…give me a break…last time I went down I had to wait longer then that just for the parts to get in to be repaired with….

    If this had actually happened, Alex’s friend would have been wise to stand up like a man and deal with it himself…with Respect. ( but wait,thats right alex told us he and his type they don’t have any respect do they) but it didn’t really happen…certainly not like alex says it did…

  433. Gringo Says:

    Alex your friend took a beatin , thats life sooner or later everyone takes a beatin , your friend had options he could have chose to tell the fucking popo it was a fucking moolie with a shopping cart that T-boned him or he could have looked up the leadership of this club and asked to have a quiet sit down maybe have some things resolved nobody needs or wants heat it may surprise you but its part what senior members do , im not saying this always works but i will take a beatin over shanked or popped any day.. your mileage may very!

  434. Alex Says:

    I want to stress, the law didn’t come to my rescue and neither myself or the LEMC(to their credit I guess) called them over. I was just more impressed that I didn’t get railroaded with some trumped up charge because the offenders were carrying a badge. I thought for sure we were going to be hassled but to my surprise, we weren’t. And regarding my friend, the beating is the least of his worry. Now he thinks he has to travel around in fear that he is forever going to be on the chopping block with these guys. Realistically, he probably won’t have another problem with this particular group but naturally, he is over-thinking things. And nobody should have to live in fear that they are going to be retaliated against for something he had no control over. Fortunately, he has not had another problem since…but he still refuses to return to that bar. I get the whole brotherhood thing(thanks to the USMC) and get that a brother has to look out for his fellow brothers, but when a group goes out looking for trouble…well, I kinda have a problem with that. Especially when myself and my friends just mind our own business and do our own thing. As there is only one dominant club in my area and it’s support clubs, It was really unfair of me to label every club in the nation….so for that, I apologize.

  435. Red&Gold Says:

    I tried to post something similar to this earlier…I think it disappeared into the inter-webs ether, but if two similar post show up my apologies.

    @Square Verbose Doc

    alex’s story is bullshit…The guy gets t-boned in a serious enough way to cause “substantial damage” yet the bike that hit him was able to drive right bent forks, no blown tire…then the cops some how find this dastardly 1%ER but don’t arrest him because the guy who was hit “doesn’t press charges”. The victim of a hit and run does not have to press charges, the city or district attorney does…so the cops do not have enough to press charges, but enough to make that sad sack club biker pay up…somehow they are able to get the money out of this bad,bad biker and get it to this poor downtrodden sports bike dude right?…actually no…the police do not do that…the guy who got hit would have to go to civil court to fight for the money, or his insurance company would have to…so, in this fairy tale (and I do mean fairy) this “friend of alex’s” somehow rushes this immediately into court,wins, gets an immediate settlement ( if you’ve ever won a judgement you know it takes months, sometimes years to get what the court awarded you), gets his money and has his “substantially damaged” bike fixed faster then a faith healer in a tent show could do it, and on the road in 2 weeks! Then, probably his first ride after getting his “substantially damage3d bike” out of the repair shop (and we know those bike shops stock all those collision repair parts and can usually get your “substantially damaged bike” in in the morning and out the same afternoon) he immediately runs into these horrible blights on society again and gets tuned up!! In my world we have aq saying…Talk Shit…Get Hit…what a bummer that people can say what ever they want on the internet and not pay any price for it… I call bullshit on this story…

  436. Red&Gold Says:

    alex…I don’t believe your story, but I will comment on your last post…If it had happened, which I don’t believe for a second,you are wrong to blame ANY other member of that club, or any one other then “them that done it” as the saying goes…I wouldn’t say all EMT’s are murderous family killing bastards and shoot their wife and kid because one did this 3 days ago….

    maybe the media will get a hold of the story I linked to and label all of you criminals, because of what this one EMT did, and then they will label your organization a criminal enterprise and put you on the terrorist watchlist… maybe the Gov’t will trump up RICO charges against you for illegal parking, and no nothing morns will believe all the evil things said about you and those like you…maybe…but I doubt it…EMT’s are not sensational enough for the masses to eat it all up….

  437. Lefty Says:

    …riiight, Alex, groups of people that go looking for trouble are douche bags – not like the USMC, tho, they nevvvver provoke anyone… idiot.

  438. Bodhi Says:

    I ran into an Iron Order guy yesterday at Harley when my Brother and I stopped by to pick up a part for his scooter… the IO dude spent a great amount of time eyeballing us but not approaching… since I was wearing my cut, AND in my town I figured eventually he would maybe say “hello”… nope… he kept looking at us and burning up his cell phone… so I finally took the bull by the horns and approached him… hey there, don’t believe we have met, your colors are new, and new around here etc… he asks me how large my club is, how many chapters etc… seriously… how about this… MY club is large enough and has been around 30 years… my cut looks like I ride… he invited us to a thing they are having…

    So I make a few calls, read their website (which has WAY to much info on it) and find out that they like to have the “few LEO” members use their badge when shit gets sticky… that’s the problem with MCs that have LE… they like to straddle the fence… live in 2 worlds.. in my humble opinion… pick a world and live in it…

    I choose to ignore all these new SOA type pop-up clubs, just like many of the other MC’s that I know… I refuse to give them legitimacy… there are unwritten rules in this world, you don’t have to like them, or abide by them…by all means be your own man/club etc… but DON’T fucking hide behind your badge or your friends badge and think that it is OK… if you think I’m being disrespectful and you start some shit… finish it without calling in the Thin Blue Line brigade to settle things…


  439. Glenn S. Says:

    Alex’s story does not have the ring of truth, but I’ll bet it plays well at backyard barbecues and grows taller with every retelling over the copy machine in yuppie cubicle land. Then some citizen asks his elected piece of shit what he is gonna do about them thar bikers terr’izing the decent folk and the piece of shit sees an opportunity to distract from the fact that, well, he’s a piece of shit, and gets on the six o’clock news to declare war on “them” while begging for a chance to rip off the taxpayers for another few years. Eventually, some guy who never hurt anybody that wasn’t trying to hurt him ends up with a gazzilion years for attempted conspiracy to litter in furtherance of a criminal enterprise.

    Alex, I’m a tattooed, longhaired ex-convict. But I will soon get on my bike and ride to work, knowing that I’m just as likely to get there on time and un-harrased by the po-lice as the soccar mom in the minivan with her cell phone and latte is to get to the sale at Chico’s, only because, as Red and Gold pointed out, others paid that price for decades. I could tell you stories about friends of mine that sufferred a lot, years and decades stolen from their lives, because a frightened citizenry believed a lot of bullshit stories and the po-lice, media, and politicans jumped on the bandwagon.

  440. Alex Says:

    Lefty, the USMC doesn’t provoke shit….they’re are true warriors and they don’t need to prove that they are the biggest, baddest mother fuckers on the block. And Glenn, Red & Gold, I am sorry you don’t believe me but I absolutely did not make that story up. There was no civil suit and there was no time spent in court. His accident report stated that information was exchanged between both parties and no prosecution was sought. The other party provided their information and my buddy had several friends with him as witnesses. His Gixxer was fixed and he was later tuned up for his troubles. I have absolutely no reason to make up that story. I am not a cop and to be quite honest, due to some stupid things I did as a young man, I can’t ever become one. Listen I am not trying to stir the pot here and I apologize for generalizing every club member, but gentlemen, you’ve done the exact same thing with all law enforcment officers. So I guess, in a sense, you can relate to my stupid generalizations. I personally have not had any bad experiences with any club members…other than watching a few provoke problems in a local strip club. But I guess any member of the general populace could do the same…so I apologize.

  441. Wilbs Says:

    I’ve just spent a crazy amount of time reading this thread and I absolutely have to comment. First, thank you Rebel for your writing and this forum. Your observations and commentary are spot-on and to the point, not to mention pretty damned funny when that’s your intention and probably sometimes when it’s not, but that’s just part of the satisfaction of reading a good writer. Thanks. I found this site doing some research on the Lactating Devils (g)A(y)MC.

    Second, thanks to all you guys for posting and schooling the rest of us, despite the usual suspects who appear as trolling, pot-stirring, baiting morons and/or alleged LEOs. Their twisted bipolar view of the world is sadly perverse and they know it and so they lash out whenever they can, including through seeking out professions wherein they have license to keep their fellow humans in cages and commit endless brutalities, large and small, against random citizens. That said, I believe cops have their place in society, but it would be great if they went after active criminals instead of inflicting their random revenue-enhancing highway-stop kabuki on private citizens who are peacefully trying to go about their private business. Rebel’s commentary on the out-of-control police-military-industrial-media complex is both well-founded and accurate, at least to my eye. (Alphabet agency drones over the highways are next guys, just wait and watch.) We need more people doing this kind of writing and turning over the rocks and dung piles and exposing the creatures that crawl among us in this “new normal.” I have a hard time respecting people who willingly participate in this burgeoning police state mechanism, even if it’s wearing a military uniform, for money. Fascist dickheads are fascist dickheads, no matter what colors they wear. Enabling that is the opposite of brotherhood.

    I don’t ride a bike and very well might never ride one. My great grandfather was a Harley dealer in the northeast back in the 20s, 30s, and 40s and he died in an accident on his bike in 1949. Until he got died, my grandfather rode with him on winter trips all over the south and west visiting Harley dealers and enjoying their company and hospitality. Even my dad rode for a couple of decades and eventually motored all of the lower 48 states. Of course, my grandfather discouraged me from riding so I’m not inclined to do it at this point, though I’m sure I’d probably like it too much. I’m on the harder side of my 40s and my kids are my bling at this point. I mind my own business and don’t really care what other people do as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. I spent some time in the Army infantry, then fought my way through college and put on a tie and khakis and became a media whore. I worked in the “news” business for about eight years at both the local and national levels, most notably in Washington, D.C., just before during and after 9/11 and during the ape-shit crazy global war response that followed. I did that until I couldn’t stand it any more and walked away to hike the Appalachian Trail. If I’d had a bike at the time, I probably would have jumped on it and ridden away to find a clue out there somewhere, but I went for a long walk instead. Now, I live fringy sort of life and can relate on numerous levels to the OMC lifestyle, though I don’t chose it. Anyway, bear with me and my point will emerge shortly…

    I grew up all around the country and overseas in a military family owing to my mom divorcing my dad and remarrying a soldier when I was about three, so I know the military and how leadership and respect work. I had minimal contact with my natural father while growing up and as an adult worked pretty hard for about 25 years to tend to my relationship with him, being a respectful and indulgent son. Mostly, being respectful entailed walking on eggshells around him and being agreeable. I thought as adults we could somehow have the friendship we never had when I was growing up. But it was not to be. My dad took every opportunity over the years to tell me things like I wasn’t getting any of his money or property when he died and how I would have to find another place to stay when I visited him if his dog (a former racing greyhound that had been abused) continued to be afraid of me. He also talked trash about me behind my back to the woman who would later give birth to my kids, probably thinking it wouldn’t get back to me. When we drove up to visit him while she was pregnant, we stayed at a motel, not at his house — he didn’t invite us to stay there. Finally, also while the woman was pregnant with our first child — his first grandchild — he stopped by on his way home from vacation and sat in my living room and spewed some racist crap, which I don’t do and he knows it. (Being un-PC shouldn’t be confused with being an ignorant, tactless, disrespectful a$$hole.) Our conversation moved into other realms and I mentioned that he would need to step up better with his grandkids than he did with me, in terms of being a consistent part of their lives, if he wanted to do that. Unfair of me? Probably. Anyway, that got his panties in a bunch and he walked off my porch like a petulant teenager in a fit of pique. Suddenly, a 60-something retired LEO becomes a dramatic geriatric diva. Since then, he’s never taken the time to get in his car and come visit his two grandkids, now aged four and five. But oh, hey, in the meantime he has written two letters to me calling me mentally ill, so at least there was that fatherly support [sarcasm off]. You’ve got to wonder how a man turns out to be like this, because I sure did and have. How does a man become a peevish, conditional, passive-aggressive, thin-skinned, back-stabbing bully with a sense of entitlement and a black-hole-like need to demand “respect”? I think it starts early, but it’s enhanced by choices later on in choice of career and choice of the company he chooses to keep. I understand what my dad is, but I don’t have to like it or want it in my life or my childrens’ lives and that is both sad and good.

    So here’s the nut at the end of all this and the reason this thread is so amazing to me: Can you guess my dad’s chosen vocation for the last 30 years? 1) He was a cop for ten years, and 2) after he got reamed by his department for boozing and harassing a female cop at her apartment one night, he “retired,” moved back north and became a prison guard, which he did for 20 years before retiring. Without even knowing it until it snuck up on me, this thread described my father to a tee. As for the various trolls who piped up along the way, I could swear they were my dad talking. Finally about a month ago, I ended the drama and wrote him a letter outlining my thoughts, including the truth that in order to be respected, you have to be respectable. His response? That I’m clearly mentally ill and etc., and blah blah. There he is like a broken record, always playing the authority card, thinking his word is as good as gold and that nobody will question him, lying and conniving, just like he probably did throughout his entire public-teat-sucking authoritarian militaristic human-caging career. In hindsight, really suspect my dad is too dumb to have been anything but a law enforcer. His only protection from numerous ass-whippings over the years was likely his badge. That’s another resaon I see my father everywhere in this discussion of IOMC. He never joined a LEMC as far as I know, so maybe he understood not to grab that tiger by the tail.

    I cannot thank you guys enough for helping me confirm and clarify this issue for me.
    It’s good to have my private assessment verified by others who have no interest in telling lies or spreading propaganda.
    Rebel has won a loyal reader here and you guys have my respect, for what that’s worth.
    (Sorry this is so long.)

  442. Wilbs Says:

    Feel free to email me and let me know why you deleted my post.

  443. Rebel Says:

    Dear Wilbs,

    Hi. It’s nice to meet you, too. I didn’t delete your post. Since you are a first time poster your comment went into a “moderation queue.” After I get through the “comments awaiting moderation” I will delete the 1,400 pieces of comment spam that have drifted in since I last looked at the page.


  444. Wilbs Says:

    My apologies, Rebel. It looked like it posted on the page to me, then was gone later. Then again, maybe you won’t want it there anyway.

  445. Philo Says:

    I just saw one of these guys last night not far from flint michigan. Had a nice shiny new michigan bottom rocker.

  446. Tooj Says:

    The internet does strange things. I read this, I am bleary eyed and (I think) hallucinating. I can swear I’m hearing an announcer saying, “These are the days of our lives” repeatedly.

    Most of the time I find things entertaining and informative here. Should I wave now?

  447. Rebel Says:

    Dear Tooj,

    What do you mean “wave?” Stay, read, comment, click ads, repeat.


  448. Tooj Says:

    “Waving protocol” was one of the many topics of concern…

    I also know what to do with my joint pain thanks to the miracle ads on this site.

    I think the next great question would be: What makes somebody a biker? (j/k please don’t!)

  449. Iceman Says:

    What I finally figured out after reading most (not all) of these comments, rants and exhibits of ignorance, is that this thread is one of the most amusing pieces of human behavior on the Internet. There are several intelligent contributors and a bunch of those who like to see their typing appear on a page after they click “Submit” and then there are a few who will never “get it” and then those who are jealous. WGAS about what anyone things of the IOMC, the 81’s, the Vagos, the OL’s, the 16’s, 13’s etc? Do you really think that any of them care what anyone on here thinks? Come’on! But this is almost better than the Maury Show. I wonder what Gypsy, Billy the Kid, Hawkster, Danny Boy and Snubz think about this? LMAO!!!!

  450. swampy Says:

    “I wonder what Gypsy, Billy the Kid, Hawkster, Fanny Boy and Snubz think about this?”

    Iceman, I don’t belive that the LD are THINKING men. Unlike Rebel and the many informed and intelligent men(and women) that comment here. Rebel puts up with my “pea size” brain post and turned around sentences because I don’t come on here and disrespect those who have earned and deserve respect. That, and him being a STRONG advocate of freedom of speech. Iceman, you have a great day.

    Rebel, I do actually own a copy of “THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE”, I guess that I should become familiar with it. – LOL!

  451. Rebel Says:

    Dear Swampy,

    You are doing fine, partner. Just say what you think anytime.


  452. Grumbler Says:

    Iceman wrote: …one of the most amusing pieces of human behavior on the Internet

    BTDT since the unix newsgroups daze of and … however, the online personalities and IRL (In Real Life) personalities aren’t necessarily in conjunction with one another.

    One of the more timeless classics posted on a NG was none other than The Steakhouse Incident:

  453. sherides Says:


    By the time I was done reading the Steakhouse Incident, I was doubled over laughing with tears streaming down my face.

    Thanks for posting the link.

  454. BadMagic Says:


    Yep, just sent that one off to the brothers, select family and co-workers!

    I don’t feel so bad about any of my IBS incidences now.

    Holy fucking shit that was funking funny.


  455. Kentucky Boy Says:

    Based on this article, and other news reports I’ve read about this incident, it is inaccurate to describe the attack as a patch-pulling. It was an “attempted” patch-pulling.

  456. SSJ Says:

    They were at bike night in Belleville Il Thursday. Illinois and Missouri rockers. Some had a lot of tabs and years and awards and that stuff sewn on their cuts. Many looked clean like LE none had that good vibe thing going on. 6-7 patches and two prospects some had STL ball caps on. I have been around here for a long time never saw either state before. Another club in Belleville over there are also LE and active duty military. I wonder how all that is going to work.

  457. Dude Says:

    I have read almost all of this thread. So please allow me to make a couple observations.
    The real question here is the 3 piece patch….

    1. 1% MC’s hate cops. Why? Simply, they are criminals..
    2. 3 pc patch represents criminal territory

    The actual question is what makes a real biker and what is a real biker club? The IO offends the 1% MC ( per this thread) not because of the 3pc but because of the LEO. I am not in the IO nor am I in a 1% MC. I choose to be an Independent, Simply because I don’t want either’s BS. I like my freedom! So what makes a Biker? Riding daily, all weather, choosing the bike over the cage at all costs of comfort, safety and opinion! I ride 90 miles in LA’s rush hour traffic every working day! For the lunkheads that 45 mi to work and 45mi back home, my bike is my passion and my first vehicle was a bike. Many years my only vehicle was a bike so I challenge anyone to not call me a biker! I thought many times of joining the 3pc patch clubs but was unwilling to become a criminal or a prospect bitch running at 3am for some assholes cocaine or other bullshit desire, or create some criminal act for money, love the dudes but hated the activity. So I ran solo because I enjoy my freedom!
    I enjoy the parties, the pussy and the beer, the midnight runs to nowhere and the sound of a heard of Harley’s rolling down the road!! So now comes a club that say’s fuck you and the 1%’s are crying.. I don’t get it?? They are rolling in the original tradition beer, pussy and bikes but without the crime? At 46, 30 hrs of hardcore riding and the criminal is going to tell me I’m not a biker or I’m a punk if I join a club that’s clean? Not sure I grasp the mentality other than the fact criminals, convicts and losers who were to afraid or too weak to make honest money have a claim to a bottom rocker??
    I have served my country in both peace and combat, (Grenada, El Salvador, Panama, Haiti) earned every dollar i’ve ever made honestly and rode a motorcycle my entire driving career. So if I want to wear my state as a rocker then Fuck You if you feel different.

    I must apologize as I may have come across disrespectful but if I choose to join the IO and some rabid dog criminal who feels they earned their patch thru criminal activity and self imposed bitchery wants to try and pull my cut I welcome the opportunity to correct that decision. I earned my cut by staying clean, earning $ honestly, and serving my country.

  458. JED Says:

    Dude…You’re right, you just “don’t get it.”

  459. Dude Says:

    Jed – make no mistake I do get it.. I look at it this way.. The Crips and Bloods say don’t wear red or blue… 1%’s say don’t wear a 3 piece… Why would I respect that? I rode many years getting pulled over because of my looks but unlike many have mentioned I didn’t get thrown, beatin or my freedom taken because I’m not a criminal. Ya I could have stolen this or that, participated in drugs dealing or moving or been a bad ass for hire. Trust me the Money was tempting but I ate ramen and spegetti o’s and worked my ass off. So again, a clean club appears and all the 1%’s are pissed and saying its a respect thing.. If I know I’m going into S. Central I wear my Dodgers jersey and a red bandana why? Because I refuse to be dictated to or respect any criminal organization. I fought my whole white trash life to be anything but a criminal. Forever free, freedom forever! It’s simple man just keep it to Bikes, Beer and Pussy! The IO is a club of dudes that finally stood up and said fuck you to the criminal.. One last thing, I ain’t IO never will be but am getting a kick that the 99%’s finally took a stand. I love the MC culture just hated the crime. All though I do like taunting the hip hop ghetto thugs cuz they ain’t got nothing I love, but I have never rocked the 3 pc cuz I never wanted to knuckle up against what I love.. The Biker!!

  460. Red&Gold Says:

    Dude…no…you do not get it…you may THINK you do, but you don’t…the fact you think 1% clubs are “criminal organizations” and 1%ER’s are “criminals” PROVES you don’t get it…bury your sheeple shaped head back in the sand, confident that your ignorance is truth…

  461. Caretaker Says:

    No,you don’t get it. But i’m not gonna bother explaining 1% life to you because it has been said here ad nauseum. We are not criminals,we simply live by a seperate set of rules then you do.

    Go away now,

  462. Dude Says:

    Not really sure why you think I don’t get it.. Read the posts and rants. No ones complaining about the Brotherhood, the club just the fact of LE, and the 3 pc. I understand club business and mind your own business. IO can share their business with LE because their clean. 1%’s can’t either due to crime or just simply hate. I understand earning your cut but in my personal experiance that ment signing over my title and enslavement, you and I both know what the prospect must do. So yes R&D 1% MC’s are what they are. So along comes a club that is simply rebellious it of o concern. One poster claimed they will make us look bad and ring jonny law down on us. How laughable their clean, law abiding?? And if a particular individual or crew are punks talk to their leadership and let the club handle their business. The reason IO has never ame to the coalition is simple, they would say no. So they manned up grabbed their ball and said fuck you. Like it or don’t but you have to respect it, even by your own rules. The problem is the IO isnt pretending to be anything their not. The reason 1%’s could slam other clubs is they were submissive. IO isn’t and their clean, lawyers, enthusiasts, first responders, so in a since their untouchable and that’s driving the 1%’s crazy. Seriously they really are of no concern because by their by-laws they cant even speak to the 1%. So what’s the rub the 3 pc.? Just as I said red or blue don’t make the blood or the crip nor does the state rocker make the 1%er.
    Have a good one and ride safe!

  463. Dude Says:

    Red and Gold.. Sorry my phone auto corrected R&G to R&D.. No disrespect intended, apologies!

  464. Glenn S. Says:

    A man does not have to do anything wrong to run afoul of the law and law enforcers. Not only is everything illegal not necessarily wrong, and everything right not necessarily legal, but society’s system of deciding who is guilty and who is innocent is flawed to the point of absurdity.

    I’m not (yet) a member of a motorcycle club, so I can’t speak to that subject. But I am too picky about the company I keep to be willing to hang around with cops and their supporters. 53 years of living in the real world has taught me that the po-lice are not my friends.

    I’ve never once had a bunch of armed 1%ers kick in my door, take what’s mine, and lock me in a cage for years. The po-lice have done that, so fuck the po-lice. With a dick the size of a freight train.

  465. OneEye Says:

    Well Dude, they way I see it is that LE clubs harass, bust and consider most, if not all, patch holding clubs as criminals by day, yet at night the don their patches, jump on their bikes and act like the very people they ostensibly describe and I’ve seen it myself. See, I’m not a fan of cops, hip-hop gangstas or Nazis, so I’ll be damned if I’m going to dress up and act like them. That is an irony that has always nonplussed me. Why would I dress up and act like a biker when I vilify them at every opportunity?

  466. OneEye Says:

    Just for the record, the word “I” in the last sentence should have read, “they.”

  467. Phuquehed Says:

    @Dude – You’re a fucking idiot. It seems you’d argue with a stop sign. You *don’t* understand, because you’re ‘stuck on stupid’ like the rest of the civilian and pig world. ‘Oh, he’s a club member so he’s *got* to be a criminal!’. Shove it up your ass sideways, ya fucking gank, people like you and that dumbshit mentality of yours do nothing good for this country or the planet. People like you and the asshats that think like you are the *EXACT* reason Franklin said this: “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”…you’re a scared little sheep who believes anything the law of the fucking papers tell you.

  468. Dude Says:

    Fuck head.. You are way out of line. I would ask but you would just lie for the sake of it. I served and protected the very freedom you speak of with a Scroll on my my fucking shoulder. For the record I’m an independant and will always be! Ive been blamed, harassed and followed by the cops because I am a biker. Not a cop lover but don’t hate either. Just cracks me up that the IO pisses you off so much. And if anyone who claims to be a 1%er is conviction free I’ll call you a liar to your face. Been a biker my whole life and dont know one 1%er that can claim they have never been down. Geez, really!?! You chose the 1% life, I chose to be a 99%er a keep my freedom!

  469. Dude Says:

    Folks I have been using the language of 1%er vs club because not all clubs are 1%. The issue and point is IO has a 3pc patch. I sincerely beleive it’s not the Rocker but the diamond that should be protected. No 99%er would ever wear the diamond and if they did I would kick their ass myself. I agree with those who have said the system ain’t fair it’s not. But the cop who dons the leather off duty is in my book head and shoulders cooler than the cop who doesn’t. Don’t mean I like them but atleast I have a shot at talkin and walkin with him.

  470. OneEye Says:

    The issue of LE “gangs” (that’s something else that has has always piqued my curiosity:LE are clubs while everybody else are gangs) is that they have been in the centre of shit on several occasions, but seem to cause problems with impunity because they hide behind a badge. They constantly berate and disparage M/Cs, especially 1%er, yet emulate them with their own gang, oops, club. They’ve even drawn heat from fellow LE who see they’re scammers and posers.

  471. BigV Says:

    Take your sanctimonious, 99%er LEO ass and go play bridge with your buddies.

    If someone is out of line, the proprietor, will let us know.

  472. Red&Gold Says:

    Dude…you are something else…you have NO…ZERO..NADA knowledge about clubbing…your ignorance oozes out of every word you write here… I am not going to go on and on with you about the io…but you do realize that the founder of that club was ousted from a different cop club don’t you? I heard it was because he was a fucking jerk who just didn’t get it,(kinda like you) so one of the other cop clubs put him out…I don’t really know what happened because all I know about that club is what I have seen with my own eyes, or heard somewhere…I am not a member of that (or any) cop club so I do not have any real knowledge of their club business…I have an idea about MY clubs business because that is my club..Kinda like you do not have any knowledge of any club because you are NOT a member of any club…you have NO Idea of what ” a prospect must do” for a 1% club…because you only know what you heard somewhere…You also obviously do not have a clue what a 1%ER is about…only what you heard somewhere…you listen to the media, listen to the cops and all the lies they tell about us, and have decided for yourself that they must be telling you the truth…As far as 1%ERs giving a rats ass about io…most of us just point at them and laugh…they USED to hate us, but now, at least on the weekends, they want to BE us!! lol…they can play dress up like us all they want but they do not have what it takes to be a real clubber…You seriously will call me a liar because I say I have No Convictions?…Well, I have many arrests because my freedom and 1%ER lifestyle offends the media, polite society and the sheeple, and, like you, they believe the lies, but I DO NOT have one single conviction…and that was your criteria…now, go ahead and tell me where you want to meet up so you can call me a lair to my face…Otherwise do not address me here at all…I am done with you…I do about 20 thousand miles a year on by sled, so I can be in your neighborhood soon…you WILL know one thing after our discussion…you do not disrespect me or my Brothers…

  473. Tiopirata1%er Says:

    I’m with Red and Gold on this. I have been a 1%er for nearly 40 years, have about 74kmiles on bike #31 and have no convictions despite the best, and frequently unjust, efforts of law enforcement in more then one country. Like many of my Brothers I have achieved in the straight world without resort to crime though most straights prefer to believe otherwise. I have even been a university lecturer.
    You quite plainly have no fucking idea and I too would welcome your calling me a liar to my face.
    Expect No Mercy BFFB

  474. Dude Says:

    One last post and i’ll leave…
    To all here I never intended disrespect but the conversation is a hard one. R&G you are very correct in i am not a 1%er and will never claim to be. If my ignorance has offended i do apologize. And R&G my hats off too you if you can live the life and beat the case. You will be the first i have ever known. Bottom line, IO has a state rocker, IMHO I think the times have changed just as we had to give up the Black Beret to the masses so will the 1% have to give up the state rocker. Again just my opinion, but the club name and the diamond are the real treasure. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong.

  475. Muck 1%er Says:

    Dude-You really DON’T have a clue.

    You are an ignorant individual who doesn’t seem embarrassed at all about showing your ignorance here in front of God only knows how many people. I would imagine several hundred read this site every day. Oh…that’s right…you use an assumed name so as to hide behind the computer in anonymity, so you can talk all your tough guy crap. You’re so tough that you wear your red clothes when you go to a certain area of LA? I’m callin BULLSHIT on that one.

    You talk all this crap about what prospects have to do to join a club, but you’ve never even been in a club, much less a 1%er club? I’m callin BULLSHIT on that one too. You watch too much gangland and read too many books written by rats and snitches.

    You say the cops have harrassed and pulled you over for years because you ride, yet you have not even one conviction? I’m callin BULLSHIT one that one too. The odds of enduring police harrassment for yrs w/o at least one misdemeanor are very, very slim and I just don’t think there could be two people talkin on this thread who were able to pull that off. I guarantee that I would take Red & Golds word over yours, because I’ve had to call BULSHIT on you three times already.

    I have some more news for your pompous, indignant and self righteous ass. I also served my country through two tours in the U S Marine corps, puttin MY ass on the line, so that ignorant people like you would keep their right to spout their stupidity in public and still be allowed to breed. However, I don’t flaunt it everytime I disagree with someones point of view. It doesn’t make me that special, so usin that card doesn’t work with me. I actually think it’s a pathetic plea for pity on your part.

    Back to your point about the convictions. Unfortunately, I must admit that, I do have a couple of minor misdemeanor convictions on my record, because as a young man feelin my oats and learning about life, I made a couple of mistakes. I challenge you though, to prove to me that other organizations such as the Elks club, The Moose club, the Shriners and even cops don’t have folks in their organizations with some kind of convictions. Even felonies.

    I CAN garauntee you that since joining my club, I have not even been arrested, much less received a “conviction.” I don’texpect you to believe it and I don’t really care one way or another if you you do, because you are insignificant to me, other than the fact that you have slandered many of my Brothers and friends on here by your drivel.

    So…you can either take what I have politely said on here to heart and give it honest consideration, or you can feel free to find me and come “kick my ass” because I wear a diamond.

    As for the iron order, I just have no respect for them whatsoever, because they like to run their mouths about how tough they are and how they will do whatever they want, whenever and where ever they want with impunity. Exactly like a lot of cops do.
    Does that mean that I’m going to go out of my way to harrass them? No. I choose to ignore them because they aren’t worth my time or trouble. Much like I plan on ignoring your ignorance from here on. If you aren’t iron order, you should be, since the real folks are just laughin at the both of you anyway.

    I have a feeling that you are either IO or a cop or you wouldn’t be defending them so vigorously. Either way…you are a troll trying to bait and incite folks on this website.

    No…you really don’t have a clue

    Muck 1%er

  476. Muck 1%er Says:

    Tried to proof read and correct spelling and grammatical errors, but the edit section said that I had timed out way before my time elapsed. So apologies for the errors. Hope folks can get the gist of what I was trying to say

  477. Shyster Says:


    Since you wear any color bandana you damn well feel like in any part of L.A. why don’t you wear a blue rag and blue T shirt and park your bike on the corner of 104th and Crenshaw at 11:45pm July 3rd. I gotta do some investigations with my P.I. on a murder case at that time near that intersection. There are some folks who are not MC members who live there that may want to speak with you about your wardrobe choices.


  478. Muck 1%er Says:


    I haven’t forgotten your kind offer. Due to circumstances, I have been unable to connect with you privately yet. Soon though.Please don’t feel that I am unappreciative or flaking you off. I just have to get a couple of things lined out first. Thank you.

    Much respect,
    Muck 1%er

  479. Dude Says:

    Muck- I am not a cop or IO and you simply misread mmy post. I said if a 99%er wore a diamond I would kick their ass myself.. God damn folks… And as far as being a biker Muck I have had to put up with alot of shit. Because the cops initially think I’m one of you, a 1%er when they quickly realize I’m not they usually let me go without a citation. So dont insinuate I’m being something I’m not. And both shyster an Muck I work in the S. Central area and wear blue and red all the time. Yea bandanas to wipe the sweat of my head. So believe what you will and call BS where you want. Oh Muck one last thing, please do t talk shit about ones service.. Reflects poorly on you. I came and simply asked a question and commented. For that I got school yard rhetoric and simply pure bullshit. Yea Muck you are right on one thing I have never prospected. And my buddies that did would’nt talk about club business as they should’nt but I could see what they signed up for.. Oh by the way, ones dead and the other is rotting away up in Oregon DOC he caught another case and and was invited to continue his visit for another 7 yrs. So your right again I just do t have a fuckin clue. Don’t bother responding I will never return here again.

  480. Phuquehed Says:

    Best promise Dude’s probably made to anyone in his life – to never return again.

  481. Tooj Says:

    For a moment here, I almost thought I was on BikerOrNot…my apologies in advance, Rebel.

  482. OneEye Says:

    Dude if you’re still reading: I am not a 1%er, nor a PH; I used to fly a patch years ago-which some may debate-however I don’t anymore. A patch is a heavy load at times and being a biker and a PH are separate issues. I know many bikers (defined as a person who’s preferred mode of transportation is a motorcycle and will ride whenever the opportunity affords itself)however I couldn’t see many of them in a club, while others would fit. The PH is a different breed, and the 1%er is at the elite level. To any PHers on here, I mean no disrespect, I am certain there are plenty PHs and independent bikers who are 1% material and have chosen a different path. The issue with LE gangs (I’ll reiterate the same disrespectful term) is the hypocrisy of which it reeks. LE vilifies, disparages and paints a picture of criminal enterprise of everyone who wears a patch (up to and including Christian clubs) yet duplicates the look, the patch and every detail of a club. I’ll let the cat out of the bag: I was front right for a Christian M/M and when we talked about patches I wouldn’t wear anything more than a 1 piece with a rocker that was non-offensive while other “Motorcycle Ministries” would wear a 3 piece with side rockers that would piss off the dominant clubs in the area. Now, whether you like it or not, there is a protocol and I couldn’t see the point in pissing people off especially when I was trying to “save” them. So, if any of guys need saving…kidding. The whole LE gang is predicated on pure hypocrisy and an egregious double standard. The jewel in the crown of the hypocrisy, from my perspective, is the bottom rocker. Anyone who has taken the time to learn the history of this lifestyle, or has been fortunate enough to have been around it from its nascent stage knows the significance of the patch, the rocker and the gravity of wearing it. Whether you agree or disagree is inconsequential, but a very high premium has been put on it and when a LE club puts that on with impunity it is a show of disrespect. However, it’s a double jeopardy when you’re dealing with LE gangs. Just think of the incident in Daytona where the Iron Pig got called upon by a 1%er club and the cop shot him. This LEO had numerous prior complaints and was an absolute cunt, but he was patted on the back while the PHer was charged. Hypocrisy, plain and simple.

  483. Rashomon Says:

    It must be something to do with the self obsessed facebook generation or something – I’ll never understand why people feel the need to come here and justify their existence. Be who you are and do what you do. If you treat others with respect, you’ll be treated likewise – if not, they’ll probably be consequences – it ain’t exactly rocket science.

    I wonder if anyone goes to cop websites and mother fucks them?

  484. PigPen Says:

    Never goes without fail. There are always ass clowns who “get it” because they watched gangland, or SOA, and now especially the devil’s dildos. Hey I went to a bike rally, I saw that episode of this and that so I know what’s up. I know you have to sign your title over, mule drugs and hit women over the head with a bat. Yeah, you get it, you got us, the secret is out.
    Far as the IO, we have them in our state too, and fuck em, fuck em in the ear. They are not worth the hassle to even acknowledge. They know, probably better than anyone else, they did not earn those cuts. We ride amongst ourselves, we sit amongst ourselves, and conduct ourselves the way we all see fit. But once one of the those assholes has something to say in our direction, that’s when we they will find out exactly how much of a fuck we give about them.

  485. TigGirl Says:

    In regard to the following:
    ” They are rolling in the original tradition beer, pussy and bikes but without the crime? At 46, 30 hrs of hardcore riding and the criminal is going to tell me I’m not a biker or I’m a punk if I join a club that’s clean?”
    Specifically, please submit proof regarding “…without the crime.” and “…club that’s clean.” in regard to the IO gang.

    In case you can’t read between the lines, a mere female just called your punk ass out.

  486. Grumbler Says:

    OneEye – It was actually in Sturgis rather than Daytona where that chickenshit Iron Pig shot the prospect. Then there was this (lol):

    Iron Pigs MC leather vest for sale

    Thanks to our reader for keeping up with this one. If you have been following our posts on the Police officer, a member of the Iron Pigs MC, who shot a member of the Hells Angles MC and have as warped a sense of humor as I you might appreciate it:

    Reply to:
    Date: 2008-08-12, 1:00PM PDT

    300 leather vests from Washington State with a patch on the back that says Iron Pigs MC. Club voted to rename and relocate for personal reasons. $200 takes all, or even $50 will do it.”

    As predicted, I just checked and here is what we found at:

    This posting has been flagged for removal
    (The title on the listings page will be removed in just a few minutes.)

    Although the National Iron Pigs MC webs site lists a Seattle Chapter.
    It would appear the link to the Seattle Chapter no longer works;


  487. Rebel Says:

    Dear OneEye,

    This page ran several stories about the attempted murder of a Hells Angel patch holder at the Loud American Roadhouse on main Street in Sturgis. The shooter was Ron Smith, a police union official from Seattle. The HA victim was named Joseph McGuire. You can read one of those stories here.


  488. jrnr Says:

    Speaking for myself, I hope he fully intends to keep that fucking promise. Fucking douchbag troll.


  489. OneEye Says:

    My apology for the misnomer. I should have known better with the geography. No disrespect to anyone was intended. I remember reading the story and keeping abreast of it when it happened, however, I will read the links from this site and get a more truthful report. Although, as I previously stated, I don’t fly a patch this issue irritates me.

  490. Thirteen Says:

    Dear (Ranger?) Dude,

    I’m with you on be unwilling to commit to a lifestyle that may create legal problems and result in my loss of freedom.
    I believe we are also on the same page in recognizing that trepidation we know our limits. In knowing those limits we do not put others at risk by taking oaths we are not committed to death upon.

    My observations as an outsider see 1%ers as men who choose to do the right thing. The soul and heart tested right thing. No matter if it flies in the face of laws of governance.
    Many I believe, understand as you no doubt do by your Scroll claim (I assume you mean to be a Ranger), that freedom is paid in blood. An ultimate price paid on our behalf. Is restraining our liberty for fear of a ‘record’, real or implied, enjoying full value of our dearly priced freedom?

    With these oaths they (1%ers) uphold. Knowing the risks to themselves. Such as losing all they themselves have worked for, such as you have worked for Dude. Witnessing the hardships their wife and children may endure during raids, dangers and absences. Placing themselves in peril of a unjust legal system. They still choose to do what they feel is right.
    To live like a man. Die like a man. Be remembered as men.

    Thank you for your service Dude. Keep searching for the truth.


  491. RVN69 Says:

    Muck 1%,
    As many have said before you cannot cure stupid, but it sure should be painful! As Rashomon said, maybe it has something to do with the facebook generation, they post shit just to see their name in print.

    Dude is an agent provocature just here to stir up shit, I’m sure he’ll be back with different name.

    Respect and Honor.

  492. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    Dickscovery Channel ought to do a show on Iron Odor, Iron Pigs or some other 3-piece-cut-wearing pig gang that persecutes real biker clubs while desperately, pathetically trying to impersonate them.

    YYZ Skinhead (IOFFIO)

  493. Shyster Says:


    No sweat.


  494. Snow Says:

    We have a cop group that flies a 3 piece that goes by Brothers In Blue MC, claiming territory, in this case Louisiana, anybody ever heard of them?

  495. 10Gauge Says:

    Muck 1%er,

    Well said as always…I would think these IO fools would SFU they just keep making themselves look worse and worse…Hope all is well in your world.

    Your favorite fake attorney,
    Mr. ten guage Esq.


    I don’t even know where to begin with you. So I willl just say if you don’t get it after reading all of the words written on this page you never will. I do find it funny that you contradict yourself about 20 times.

    Glad to not be a part of your world,


    I always thought you were a solid motherfucker…I am glad I was right.

    When in doubt…cut it down the middle,

  496. swampy Says:

    Snow, no, I’m in the northern part of the state. Of course Northern La. and Southern La. are as different as night and day – not to say that should matter. The Iron Oder must stick pretty close to Lafayette; I’ve never seen them “up here.” Although, I’ve seen a couple of them in Lake Charles(on the move) once about a year ago. Thanks for the “heads up.”

  497. Grumbler Says:

    @Snow – Nope, never heard of them before. Eyeballed their website, and didn’t see anything about claiming territory other than: The bottom rocker indicates the state the chapter resides in. OTOH, they wear a MC rather than LEMC patch thus perpetulating more fake MC club BS.

  498. Snow Says:

    @ swampy
    I’m near Houma, I’ve never ran into any IO around here but do see the BIB guys on occasion.
    @ Grumbler
    yep, never heard of any of them starting any shit but they are cops so it’s only a matter of time I guess.
    In case I’m not around the next couple days, have a great 4th of July.

  499. swampy Says:

    Grumbler, did you notice the shape of that MC “cube?” Maybe not a true geometrical “Rhombus”; it’s close enough. The scales on their center patch must mean they’re a drug “gang.” Respects,

  500. Grumbler Says:

    @Snow – Yawl have a great 4th, too. It’s gonna be like a war zone up here with tons of fireworks shooting off from the residential areas which drives the cops bat-shit crazy.

    @Swampy – Too funny about the drug scales on center patch. They should’ve gone with a badge rather than rhombus shaped MC patch. It’s blatantly obvious that they’re a cop club from the website photos. I can almost smell the bacon! Respects.

  501. Dan Says:

    Maybe LEMCs should be known as In-law Motorcycle Clubs. In-laws as in you can’t fucking stand them but they’re part of the deal.

  502. Glenn S. Says:

    We’ve got “Defenders” here in upstate SC. I encountered one of them at a jockey lot, when I enquired about the DOT approved low profile helmets at a bike gear booth, so I wouldn’t have to wear the mushroom head when out of state. Propriortor tells me that these’s cops in Georgia carry micrometers and a scale to judge whether or not a helmet is legal, and the low profile helmet, despite DOT approval, won’t pass their test. I made a comment about petty little cops and he got all insulted, turned around to show me his patch. Puffed his little chest out and informed me he was LEMC. Fucking asshole.

  503. OneEye Says:

    10 Gauge, I appreciate the complimentary words, they are not taken lightly. Glenn S, I just joined the mushroom head club. I look like a fucking fugitive from Easter Island or maybe a touch encephalitic. After years of riding around with a polo style beanie I got read the riot act with helmet, bars and pipes. I walked on the bars (I have 12″ Apes on 2″ risers tilted forward, and according to our Nazi provincial government I’m 11″ over the highest acceptable level) and my pipes are baffled, but I got dinged $110 for my helmet. Now I could be stubborn and just get another beanie, but I live in a small town and now that I’ve been ticketed I’m a marked man `and I have MUCH better things to do with $110 than give it to the cunts who call themselves the government.

  504. Glenn S. Says:

    If a helmet is DOT approved (not with the removable sticker), and not altered, can they make it stick? I ordered a low-profile helmet online from a mainstream retailer (Amazon dot com), printed the webpage ad that claims its legal in all states and put it in my wallet, and wore it to Georgia week before last. Didn’t get pulled over. Looked up Georgia’s laws and didn’t see one word about thickness or weight, just approved by some regulator. General consensus from Georgia bikers was DOT was okay. But there’s always an asshole cop, and if its not the helmet, he’ll just break the taillight.

  505. whitefxrp Says:

    Cunt/s, what a great, treasured, English insult, when I asked my Pa what he thought of politicians over the years he said “they’re all cunts”

  506. OneEye Says:

    Whitefxrp, it seems that word is much more widely used by, and less shocking to Canadians and Brits (with the exception of females), but nothing quite compares to it for conveying your feelings, right? Ha ha ha ha! Glenn S, I looked for helmets and when I found the “smallest legal polo helmet on the market” and read the many “I can’t believe it’s a DOT helmet” and “NO MORE MUSHROOM HEAD” I had to get it. I look like an extra from that Elizabeth Taylor movie “National Velvet.” I’ll fight the ticket, and claim ignorance and I will probably win and get the fine dropped, but once the standards have been explained and the legal qualifications manifested and my case taken to court I will have been educated.

  507. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    OneEye, Whitefxrp:

    “Cunts” is common in Ireland amnd Scotland as well. Read anything by Roddy Doyle and James Kelman. All people of both genders are cunts (particularly if the speaker dislikes the cunt). I can’t stand most humans, so I call just about everyone and everything cunts and pricks.

    YYZ Skinhead

  508. OneEye Says:

    YYZ Skinhead:
    I find being misanthropic does have its rewards, and I use the word with no gender specicity, ha ha ha!

  509. OneEye Says:

    The word should have been “specificity.” Damn my proof reading.

  510. Phuquehed Says:

    I got to teach responsibility for one’s actions earlier this evening by flyin’ up on the ass of a car that tailgated me and when I finally got tired of it and slammed on the brakes which made them do the same, it pissed them off and they passed me on a short straightaway and of course flipped me the bird, I jumped off the bike and lo and behold it’s two fat-ass sows (these girls were fucking nasty huge!). First words out of one of ‘em’s mouth was ‘You’re gonna hit a woman, big boy?’ and I got to tell her that she was sure acting tough not 30 seconds past and suddenly she didn’t want to accept responsibility for her actions. I’m not a quiet-voiced person, even when whispering, and these two fucking oinkers parked in a parking lot full of people who were there to watch the yearly tiny-town parade and fireworks with their kids and such, and said small town (which I live in) got to hear me call these two every name in the book, very loudly and in her face, and ended up with ‘stinking cunt’. As far as my experiences, most women seem to really not like that term for some reason, heh heh.

    I’m one of those assholes who doesn’t take kindly to someone fucking with my life with their 2 or 3 ton vehicle and thinking it’s no big deal. I couldn’t care less if the car had been filled with 20 ninjas and swords, they were gonna hear from me one way or another, so women don’t get no fucking slack from me either.

    My biggest surprise – no law came after me after I finally got back on the bike and rode off to the bar.

  511. (btb) back to basics Says:

    For those who live under the delusion that cops are not criminals, check out this site:

    At this very moment in the United States, this has become the norm …. Law enforcement officers are involved in criminal activity. In addition, these individuals are involved in violating citizen’s civil and constitutional rights and they have more latitude to cause death, physical, financial and emotional harm to U.S. citizens than any other organization. Their actions are overlooked and encouraged by their department leadership, making those individuals complicit in the crimes. They may think they are gods … they aren’t. Nobody is above the law. Fight back and hold them accountable.

    America’s #1 Terrorist Threat is Law Enforcement

  512. Phuquehed Says:

    @btb – Unfortunately, Joe Citizen who gets harassed and fucked with usually doesn’t have the cods to report it because the pigs probably intimated to him that if he did more bad shit might happen. So then it’s left up to the likes of us, and since Joe Citizen is happy if the pigs allow them to graze and tell them that we’re big bad wolves, Joe Citizen doesn’t pay attention to us when *we* write this shit up. To them we’re liars and scum and ‘bad people’ not to be believed because we want to fuck their 12 year old daughters and cook and eat the family pets.

    For the sheeple to wake the fuck up and see how screwed they are, it’ll take something massive happening to them to get them off their apathetic asses…something massive to a *huge* number of them at one time…sorta like Red Dawn or something.

  513. jrnr Says:


    That’s right, all you cop fucks that monitor this site. Fuck you, your time is coming! You think your better than everybody that doesn’t have a badge, when in reality you’re such fucking lowlifes you have to have a badge to try to force people to show you respect. We pay your salary. YOU work for us. Yeah, what a joke that is, just like INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

    p.s. if I didn’t mention it, FUCK YOU!


  514. papa Says:

    why would the iron order call the cops to protect them from a 1%er club? i wish theyd explain this? this happened in wisconsin or illinois from a charter of iron order? id say thats kinda fukkin weird since they ask to gain respect within the mc world i just say its weird.

  515. BigV Says:

    They’ve done this in a number of places. The Outlaws in TN were in Knoxville’s Easy Riders Show and another larger group of 15’s showed up. The Iron Order freaked and called the cops to cover their asses.

    They’re posers. Anything important on this subject has already been better said by Sled Tramp, RVN69, Caretaker, and Red&Gold, so I’ll shut up.

  516. Bravo1 Says:

    Well Im a cop. Thank your for paying my salary…wow, what a yuppie phrase. So how about a raise then? Ive never planted evidence, beat on anyone, or covered for a dirty cop. Does that make me 1% since Im not the norm of LE? If there were no cops, who would protect the public? Would the public have to choose between a club that sells meth or one that sells weed? But this is America, I served, Im proud, and I will wear what I want. Ive rode motorcycles before I became a cop, and will continue to do so. If I decide to join any club, its my choice. We are all Americans. If you dont like it America, leave it.

    If cops on bikes are weekend warriors, what does that make the biker who drives a minivan or truck when its raining? Minivans are a “soccer moms” claim to fame, and trucks are for rednecks. Come on now. Not all bikers are career criminals, not all cops are corrupt.

    How can you be down on SOA, when you make statements of playing “Red Dawn”? Cheering for communists now? Sigh. I enjoyed the Shield (dirty cops meaning well) and also SOA (bikers meaning well). But I dont go to work acting a character from TV. Or go to bars hoping for a brawl.

    Do correctional Officers and bouncers count as cops too? Just wondering

  517. sled tramp Says:

    “what does that make the biker who drives a minivan or truck when its raining?”
    Well,the next time you see a bedraggled,soaking wet,frozen to the bone biker in January with a 50 pound bag of dog food strapped to his sissy bar and his saddle bags sprouting groceries,it’ll be me.And in all honesty,it’ll probably make me a few sandwiches short of a full picnic in the eyes of the minivan driving soccer moms and construction truck guys but that’s what “BIKERS” do.

  518. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 –

    “Ive never planted evidence, beat on anyone, or covered for a dirty cop” — I’ll put your pay check on it that you lie on a daily basis on reports or tickets.

    “Would the public have to choose between a club that sells meth or one that sells weed?” — You have already formed the opinion that all clubs are involved in drugs.

    “this is America… and I will wear what I want. Ive rode motorcycles before…, and will continue to do so. If I decide to join any club, its my choice. We are all Americans. If you dont like it America, leave it.” – – yet your profession is the first to deny others of the same.

    “Not all bikers are career criminals, not all cops are corrupt.” — Career criminals??? you have already formed the opinion that all bikers are criminals and in denial and minimizing the fact all cops are corrupt.

    Your post screams your feelings and contempt towards the traditional bikers. What is worse, you are one of the cowards that hides behind your badge to enforce your personal beliefs.

  519. sled tramp Says:

    To me,all this back and forth about posing and being something you’re not is about a truth.False vets,RUB’s playing clubbers,Cops wanting to be on both sides of the equation…yeah, it’s Amerika.But it’s also about lying to one’s self and others by pretending to be something you’re not.If you’re a cop,you’re a cop,not a clubber as I think of the definition as it pertains to bikers.One can move things around all over and justify and rationalize the meaning.”Well, I’m IN a club so…” Yeah,well…we all know what you’re really trying to say.So go join a club.I couldn’t care less.I don’t wear a cowboy hat to Safeway because I love watching Gunsmoke,nor a badge on my chest because I watched Barney Miller.I don’t need fantasy dress up on weekends to explain to people what I want them to see me as.
    I don’t like cops because they lie to me.I don’t like RUBS because often times,they lie to themselves.If lying about who you are,or who you really want to be deep inside makes you happy when you straddle that 16k piece of purchased manhood you got,fine.Just don’t try to lie to me/us about it.We KNOW who WE are.

  520. sled tramp Says:

    Since I’m on a Monday morning no coffee yet rant…one more thing.When a cop tells me here or on the street,”I’m a vet”.Ya know what? I couldn’t care less.Really couldn’t.Something I would never say to a citizen vet and here’s why.I have brothers that have served in many conflicts.Been wounded inside and out for their country.Who suffer extreme PTSD and have realllly bad days.Does that matter to a cop? Nope.The vet cop “served”. The vet biker “Became a menace”.Kiss my Master Blaster winged,Bumblebee tabbed,Green Blanket head ass.

  521. Arctic Says:

    Sled Tramp wrote
    “Kiss my Master blaster winged, Bumblebee tabbed, Green Blanket Head Ass”. LMFAO
    I don’t even know what that means and I literally laughed out loud…that’s good shit right there.

  522. Arctic Says:

    Quick question before I hit the sack (working nights SUCKS) This question is for any Club member especially those in the Northwest. How the fuck does a guy go about becoming friends or hanging around with an MC? I’ve lived in this area just over a year. I ride everyday rain or shine. I frequent the area biker friendly bars. In the year I’ve been here I’ve only seen two cats with Cuts. I tried to follow them so i could talk with them when they eventually stopped but Unfortunately I was in my Pick-up and couldn’t keep up then lost them at a light. Did’nt even get close enough to see what club they were with. I’ve tried running a search on line (don’t laugh) and all I find is the IO and links to news reports about “biker gang” arrests. I’m not necessarily looking for a 1% MC, a local support club or independent club would be great if we both felt It was a good fit. I was told recently that Hardtails in Kelso, WA was a club hangout so I rode up there the very next day only to find it has closed down. I understand this is not the kinda thing you can just jump right into and I’m not in a big hurry to “belong” but shit this is the Northwest, supposed to be thick with MC’s. Where the hell are y’all hiding?

  523. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 –

    One additional statement on my part … you said, “If there were no cops, who would protect the public?”

    Can you tell me who protects the public from corrupt cops? The protection, as a rule, sure as hell doesn’t come from you or your fellow police officers or the courts.

    It’s sad that I have to audio record every time I’m pulled over because I feel the need to protect myself from the one’s you want me to trust. I have NEVER met an honest cop. You all are trained (even thought it’s part of your character already) not to be and justify your dishonesty in your own distorted way.

  524. RK Says:

    I hope to fuck you’re kidding… In the case that you’re not, part of you’re problem might be the rain or shine pick up you ride. Try not to do anything else too stupid.

  525. sled tramp Says:

    If you’re in the Portland/Tri cities areas and you’re not seeing cuts,I don’t know what to tell you other than there is a abundance of clubs at all levels in that area.

  526. 10Gauge Says:


    Keep riding around…If it is meant to be it will happen. In life you “get in” where you “fit in”.If you are hanging around bars, parties, and runs where there are no patches then whats the big deal with no patch? Trust me nobody is hiding..if you are running in circles that are so far removed from clubs that you don’t ever see any after a year of living in the Pacific North west… it makes me think it might be for the best. If you are looking to go to some club parties you can prolly look on the flier wall or window at your local indie shop or even the stealership for that matter.

    Do not follow patches (or any rider for that matter) you do not know in your truck…It may lead to a big missunderstanding!

  527. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    I am beginning to wonder if many of the posters to this thread who claim to be LE are one individual, since there are at least three “I’m a cop and I ride and 1% bikers are drug criminals etc etc” posts above the most recent one that are esssentially identical to it, if anyone cares to look for them.

    YYZ Skinhead

  528. Chief Says:

    I will put on my Interpreter hat for what Sled Tramp said:

    Master Blaster: A master rated Paratrooper (ATW, Jumpmaster!!)

    Bumblebee Tabbed: Ranger qualified.

    Green Blanket: aka Green Beret, Special Forces.

    Sled, much respect to you,


  529. OneEye Says:

    Hey Phuquehead: I don’t take kindly to assholes who play with my well being. On a separate issue, I learned of this cool old spark plug recycling program.

    Bravo 1: First and foremost, I think it’s irrelevant who “pays your salary.” Do we have a say when LE steps outside the parameters of the laws you are supposed to enforce? I bet if a 1%er was to reiterate everything you stated about how saintly you are you’d roll your eyes with a smug grin and utter,”sure.” So, we’re just going to believe you, right? In the spirit of reciprocity, you get painted with the same broad brush as you paint every biker. Before you get too self righteous, I have read articles from newspapers around North America citing drug sales, assault, rape, molestation, spousal abuse etc. being committed by LE. Oddly enough I didn’t see any mention of racketeering or RICO. Everything you throw at bikers can be said conversely about cops, and in this day and age of mass media it is widespread with LE. One more thing: since you’re such a non-weekend warrior and motorcycle enthusiast, do you ride EVERY time it rains or are we just the sissy rednecks who take our trucks?

  530. swampy Says:

    Bravo1, I have a permanent sunburn on my neck…..Ahahahahaha!!!!

  531. JIM666 Says:

    10Gauge Says: Do not follow patches (or any rider for that matter) you do not know in your truck…It may lead to a big missunderstanding!
    That could be a understatment hehehe, well said 10Gauge

  532. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 –

    I just did some research and discovered what you are all about.

    No wonder hide behind a badge and gun.

  533. Bravo1 Says:

    To (btb) BAck to Basics….
    “Ive never planted evidence, beat on anyone, or covered for a dirty cop” — I’ll put your pay check on it that you lie on a daily basis on reports or tickets.

    Good thing youre not a betting man. I can see why you probably get a ticket every time you stop. Good job with the false bravado.

    “this is America… and I will wear what I want. Ive rode motorcycles before…, and will continue to do so. If I decide to join any club, its my choice. We are all Americans. If you dont like it America, leave it.” – – yet your profession is the first to deny others of the same.
    ….wow,youre answers are somewhat jumbled, are you saying that all cops deny Americans to ride bikes? or that we try to prevent losers from leaving the country?

    YOU already have judged all cops to be crooked, but cry about a hint of illegal activity that 1% ers admit to? Sheesh

  534. Bravo1 Says:

    To Swampy…that was funny!!!

  535. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 –

    Let’s test your honesty. Do members of your department break the law?

  536. Red&Gold Says:

    To the cops on here that keep calling me a criminal, and my club a “Criminal Organization”…Look in your own back yard first…this is just for lat friday… ONE DAY….this stuff is posted regularly on…also links provided to original stories…

    Here are the 11 reports of police misconduct tracked for Friday, July 6th, 2012:
    Houlton, ME: A 24 year veteran police officer was accused of operating her state police cruiser while under the influence of alcohol. She was issued a summons after she failed her field sobriety and BAC tests.
    Update: Providence, Rhode Island: Police Col. John Whiting was found guilty of larceny and solicitation to receive stolen goods, after he stole $714 from a stripper’s pocketbook. He will be sentenced September 14th.
    Atlanta, Georgia: Teresa Culpepper spent 53 days in jail because the police mistook her for another woman. “All she has is the same first name. The only descriptions that match are ‘Teresa’ and ‘black female,’” said her attorney. “I just don’t think in another side of town this would have ever happened.”
    Salem, Massachusetts: A police officer was arraigned and charged with raping the woman watching his children. He pleaded not guilty, and has been place on administrative leave. “The Salem Police Department takes any allegation against a member of the department very seriously,” said Salem Police Chief Paul Tucker.
    Hamilton County, Tennessee: A sheriff’s deputy was arrested after she was accused of attempting to pass a fake prescription in a Walgreen’s. She has previously been arrested after assaulting her husband.
    Duchesne, Utah: A female member of the Ute Indian Tribe has filed a one million dollar lawsuit accusing a sheriff’s deputy of groping her at a traffic stop. “We’re pretty frustrated about this,” said the Sheriff, Travis Mitchell. “We’ve got a situation that happened nine months ago that we had no clue about. If our officers were doing something wrong, we’d want to investigate it. We’d have an independent investigation done.”
    Bakersfield, California: A sheriff’s deputy was arrested for spousal abuse. This officer was involved in a crash that killed another deputy in 2008, and he was also previously arrested for domestic violence in 2009.
    Clayton County, GA: Deshawn Balka is filing suit against the county and the sheriff after she gave birth to her baby in jail and he died. She says she called out for help for three hours while giving birth in her cell, and that jail staff arrived 5-10 minutes after the baby was delivered into the toilet.
    Las Vegas, NV: A group of Nevada Highway Patrol Troopers and a retired police sergeant filed a racketeering complaint against the NHP and Las Vegas Metro Police. The suit alleges that the K9 program was being manipulated so that illegal searches and seizures could be conducted for financial benefit.
    Georgetown, DE: A deputy sheriff was fired for falsifying records, abusing county equipment, and requesting $6000 worth of overtime over a 10 month period.
    Eric, CO: A woman filed suit against the police officer who shot and killed her dog. The officer said the dog charged him, while the woman’s lawyer says that there are witnesses that will back up the owner’s statements: “Ava was a sweet dog who was well-known in the neighborhood for being well-behaved.”

    That is for 1 day! LEAVE ME AND MY BROTHERS ALONE…clean the dog shit up in your own back yard….

  537. RVN69 Says:

    Been meaning to mention this since you first posted. WAY back when, when I was a young’n I was groundhog hunting with a friend. We had “borrowed” a bunch of his dad’s guns. When it came my turn I shot a groundhog after crawling up a dry stream bed to within about 20ft with a 10GA double. Pulled both tiggers at the same time and it was loaded with 00 buckshot. Kicked the snot out of me literally, blew the ground hog apart, looked like it had exploded from the inside out. I remember that day every time I see you post.


  538. Bravo1 Says:

    (btb) back to basics…..l.i believe some do. I don’t work for a big department, so if they are, someone in the area will find out. As it is, I’m usually the only officer on duty when I work. If they break the law, they should be kicked to the curb.

  539. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 –

    Don’t worry. I will continue to remind you of my last question to you in the event you overlook it due to the other posts.

    It was …. Let’s test your honesty. Do members of your department break the law?

    It’s a simple yes or no answer.

  540. sled tramp Says:

    Thanks for the translation.I figured Bravo 1 couldn’t see my challenge coin.
    sled tramp
    18 B/F

  541. 10Gauge Says:


    Glad I could bring a smile to your face…My first time was goose hunting as a youngin…I got too excited when they came in and didn’t shoulder it properly..nearly broke my collar bone…but man was that fucker was loud and had some balls…we nearly laughed our asses off.


  542. bob Says:

    I’m somewhat surprised a recent vet did not know at least two out of three of Sled Tramp’s Army jargon.

  543. Phuquehed Says:

    @OneEye – Huh? What’d I do wrong now?

  544. OneEye Says:

    No, no, no Phuquehed! I was paraphrasing what you said about the two rotundas who were acting like assholes while driving too close to you. No harm, no foul. Respects. Go back and reread the message.

  545. Bravo1 Says:

    Pst…already answered the question. To shorten it, yes. Your turn. Do members of your motorcycle club break the law?

  546. Phuquehed Says:

    @sled tramp – You’re not alone getting the strange looks from people in the middle of winter on a bike. It just sucks that I have to make three trips as I can only handle putting one bag at a time on the bike without messing my back up even more…one for the dog food, and two for chicken feed. That’s 12 miles one way, so I get to get a *lot* of wierd looks and dumb questions, heh heh. The bike is all I own, though I could borrow mom’s van, it hurts physically so bad for me to sit in that damned thing that I’d almost rather walk (and walking 100 yards+ damn near has me in tears), so the bike comes out, rain, shine, cold, hot, just not on ice and not too sure I wanna try snow if I can help it…bad part about that though, is a curve in the drive never gets sun and if it snows, it turns to ice and stays there for a couple weeks and I better hope I’ve also got the grocery shopping done too!

  547. OneEye Says:

    Bravo 1: really? Who on this planet doesn’t break the law? The critical difference here is that your “gang” has taken an oath to uphold it and to be something of a benchmark for John and Jane Q to see. Another web site that I frequent has a section called “Cops Gone Bad” and on any given day those articles outdo the Bikers Gone Bad handily. Now, you may claim this is a partisan view due to the nature of the board, but I don’t buy that. You think bikers are douchebags; I think cops are douchebags. You generalize and so do I. Broad brush. As far as a patch goes and wearing what you want: I wonder how much bravado you’d have without a badge, a gun and a department behind you.

  548. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1

    Now this is getting good. I like it.

    your question: “Do members of your motorcycle club break the law”

    answer: Every day.

    Now back to you. According to your answer, you are a self admitted member of an organization where it’s members break the law and you are a willing participant in that organization.

    So, do you want me and others following these posts to believe that you do not also break the law?

  549. Chief Says:

    No worries, Sled, it does this old crusty Warrant good to run into a fellow Master Blaster. As far as Bravo1, I don’t think he can see past his thin blue line IMO.


  550. Phuquehed Says:

    @OneEye – Aaahhh! Okay, I get it. Thought for sure I’d pissed off someone else, heh! Sometimes…well, almost always…okay, okay, all the time I’m not the swooftest turd playin’ in the sandbox.

  551. OneEye Says:

    No, it’s cool!! Ha ha ha!

  552. Red&Gold Says:

    Bravo 1

    and you say MY Club is a criminal organization?

  553. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 …

    I’ll be checking back for your response later. Right now I need get ready to go out and break the law some more.

  554. Arctic Says:

    @ RK
    I guess my post confused you a little, sorry about that. I ride my Motorcycle everyday rain or shine. I do, however, own another form of transportation, a Pick-up. Which I just happened to be driving on the day that I came across the two men wearing cuts. As far as “try not to do anything else to stupid” that line was uncalled for. I’ll try to dumb down my post for you RK from here on out. You know, so you can keep up.

  555. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    There would be fewer lawbreakers if there were fewer horseshit laws.

    YYZ Skinhead

  556. Arctic Says:

    @ 10 Guage
    Thanks for the info and advice. I actually thought about that after I lost them, that trying to follow them probably wasn’t the smartest thing I’d done that week. It was a two piece patch I’m not dumb enough to tail a three piece Cut. But I still agree, bad choice on my part.

  557. BigV Says:

    Just riding up to a club’s clubhouse unannounced or following a patch is ill advised. I would say stupid. But that’s just me.

    Looking on the Internet to find a clubhouse or runs or parties isn’t likely going to happen, either. Only 1 club I’m aware of does that in the deep south, and those are such big public parties your chances of really meeting and getting to know some of the guys is kinda unlikely as well.

    If you’re that out of touch from the culture, you might want to start slower before jumping in.

  558. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Arctic …

    I’ll give you a heads up about something. We have chase vehicles accompanying us many times to watch for people like you. It could have turned out being very uncomfortable for you. Put yourself in our shoes if you saw somebody uninvited obviously following you. Something to think about.

  559. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 ….

    I’m back anxiously awaiting your response.

  560. Arctic Says:

    To BTB
    Again, thank you for the info and advice. It was a stupid move! I’m aware of that now. I think my problem is i’m kind of a loner, usually don’t go out of my way to meet people and feel like I don’t fit in with the “casual riders” groups I do meet on the road. At the end of the day all I really care about is the ride. 99% of the time I ride alone and love it. I do however, feel it would be nice to meet a group of guys that have the same interests, kindred spirits. Like I said I don’t get that with the casual riding groups. I’ll be 100% honest, and this will surely get me shunned on this site I’m sure. I did meet up with the local chapter of the IO and went on a ride with them. They all seemed like decent guys. I did notice some things I did not like but I’m not going to bash them on here because I believe ONLY MC members have a right to voice an opinion on another club. People on here bad mouthing any club that isint a member of a club should just shut up and color. Like I said they all seemed like decent guys but I just can’t get past them wearing a Bottom rocker. I don’t think it’s right so I can’t be apart of it. Anyway, I’ll just keep doing what I’m doing whitch is being in love with my bike and the ride and if the club thInk happens it happen and if not that ok too.
    Respect to all clubers on this site. You all ALWAYS show class even when a commenter doesn’t deserve it.

  561. sled tramp Says:

    Along the chase truck message,a three,two or one piece patch does not denote the type of club.This common misconception is propogated by L.E. and TV.Treating all patches with the same awareness and respect is always a good idea.It sounds like you’re a born independent.Nothing wrong with that.Nothing at all.

  562. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Arctic …

    Your statement that you feel like you don’t fit in is not uncommon. We see that all the time. That’s a self esteem issue that a club can’t fix. Being a part of a club and wearing a patch doesn’t make the man. People that want to hide behind a patch are a liability to the club and no different then the LEO that hide behind the badge. It’s not our (clubs) responsibility to be your therapist.

    As for Iron Order… they have the right to exists just the same as any other club. It’s a free country. There is a song that comes to mind when I think of them … “They smile in your face, All the time they want to take your place, The back stabbers.

    They (IO) are mostly feds & cops. It takes in others that want to feel safe being surrounded by people that hide behind a gun and abuse the authority granted to them by society. I view those others as cowards. I don’t like feds and cops nor do I have any respect for them. As I stated in a previous post, I’ve never seen one (LEO) who is honest.

  563. Arctic Says:

    To BTB
    Sorry but I had a chuckle at your thinking I have self esteem issues. After going back and re-reading my post I can kinda see how you might have got that impression. I can assure you I do not have low self esteem. I’m not looking for a club to help me feel more manly. lol, still laughing about that. I’m beginning to think I am a terrible writer. Every time I comment on this site I give somebody the wrong impression. Anyway. I don’t feel the casual rider groups are a good fit for me for reasons I’m not going to get into because, however I seem to be coming across, I’m not on this site looking for validation or anything like that. I’m a blue collar guy, Oil Field Trash. I Love my ole lady, my kids, my Dog and my Bike. I’m am perfectly happy riding solo. I’ve been a wonderer for the past several years until meeting my girl and recently putting down routes here in the Northwest. Occasionally I get to thinking it would be cool to have a group of friends in the area to ride with and go out and raise a little hell with once in a while. That’s all nothing more. Maybe the MC isn’t for me, dunno, but it’s at least worth exploring the possibility.

  564. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Arctic …

    I meant no disrespect. Maybe I read something other than what was there and misunderstood you. I too “Love my ole lady, my kids, (my grandkids), (don’t have a Dog) and my Bike.” Sounds like we have something in common. Be yourself and who knows, maybe you will pass ways with a patchholder that will see the qualities you possess.

  565. Arctic Says:

    @ BTB
    I didn’t think for a second you were showing disrespect. I chalk the misunderstanding up to my shity writing ability. Thanks for taking the time to explain some things to me.
    Be well
    With Respect

    @ Sled Tramp
    “born independent,” you’re probably right!

  566. Phuquehed Says:

    @Arctic – This crap you wrote… “I believe ONLY MC members have a right to voice an opinion on another club. People on here bad mouthing any club that isint a member of a club should just shut up and color.”, is just that – crap. There’s too many on here who know and understand clubs far better than you who *aren’t* patched and *aren’t* making fools of themselves by asking how to find a 3 piece club to ask about joining or following a couple riders around in a p/u! You disrespect an awful lot of people telling them what you think they should be doing instead of what they are, when you have no fucking clue yet what any of it’s about. And if you say the shit you’ve learned in the past two days is enough, you’re still full of shit. As far as I’m concerned, you’re no better than that Bravo1 fucktard at the moment for writing that fucking shit. I may be the only one who thinks this about it, but that’s okay, ’cause I’m saying something about it mainly for myself.

  567. Arctic Says:

    To Phuquehead
    I’m a little confused as to what you are pissed off at me about. I freely admit I know nothing about Club life. That’s why I don’t feel entitled to have an opinion on MC’s. All I said was I saw some things with a specific club that I didn’t like but wasn’t going to talk shit about them because I have no right to. The same as I wouldn’t talk about ANYTHING I would happen to see while being around ANY club, that’s their business. I believe that unless you have done what it takes to become a member of a Club you should not talk shit about any club. I don’t believe I wrote anything to the affect of wanting to find a “3 piece club.” I mean no disrespect to you, i dont know you, but I honestly have no idea what you found so offensive. my only conclusion, and again I don’t know anything about you, is that perhaps you are not a Patched member of a club but feel you know enough to have an opinion on clubs. If I’m wrong then I REALY don’t know why you’re pissed. But if I’m right then it’s ok if we disagree. You’ve got me stumped.

  568. Snow Says:

    @ Arctic
    I understand where your coming from and in some ways could have written lots of the same things, for the most point too independent for my own good, blue collar oilfield trash muther fucker and proud of it. So as 1 to another let me try to pass a little wisdom, if you are truly interested in meeting like minded folks look up your local COIR (Coalition Of Independent Riders) group. It is an extension of the US Defenders, check out the web site for more info, we are active with the local COC’s. We are active in the Nortwest area and are always happy to find interested, like minded folks. Good luck in your search.

  569. Arctic Says:

    I’d like to retract my previous comment regarding people not Patched members of a club “should shut up and color.” What can I say, I’m a little rough around the edges and often say/write shit without giving it much thought. SO, speaking only for myself, somebody not in a club and without much knowledge of club life. I feel that I, me, myself have no business giving my opinion on what I think of any specific club because I haven’t walked in their shoes. OK, maybe one of these times I’ll write a comment that doesn’t offend or leave anybody feeling disrespected.

  570. Arctic Says:

    To Snow
    Thank you for the lead. I will check it out.

  571. Glenn S. Says:

    Arctic, I’m not a member of a club, but I’ve lived a lot of life. And its my experience that a man ends up right where he’s supposed to be, when he’s supposed to be there, with whom he’s supposed to be with. No need to force it. Water seeks its own depth, so to speak.

  572. Bill Says:

    Glenn: That’s some good stuff right there. Makes me think I should waste less time complaining. It’s just an excuse for inaction.

  573. Arctic Says:

    To Glenn S
    You are absolutely right, wise words and message received.
    Much Respect

  574. RK Says:

    Unplug your keyboard or grab a shovel… You’re not helping your cause any and I for one agree with Phuquehead. Now, before you insult my intelligence again; adjust your monitor, sit back, open your eyes & continue to read carefully…..

    I don’t know who you are, but from my experience, there’s a usually reason a dude can’t make any friends in a year. I could be off, but hell… I’ve been known to be wrong. I used to live outside Seattle, and ran from there to Portland on a regular basis. I lived there for three hears and had no problem making friends or seeing patches.. and that was before I had any club affiliations and certainly before I became a patchholder. I too, rode rain or shine and had a four wheeled back up I used on occasion. The Pacific Northwest is a beautiful place, teeming with great roads and good people, and the only place in the world I’d willingly live other than the Texas gulf coast. If you are serious about getting involved with a club I’ll give you the same advice I give everyone somebody asks me… Get in touch with the local COC, as long as you can keep your mouth shut during your visit and aren’t a cop you should be good to go.. Look & listen, find out the different types of clubs there & find one that may fit you. Get to know them and follow the time honored practices which starts with removing your sunglasses, looking a man in the eye with respect then shaking his hand.. Be respectful. Be honest. Be yourself. Watch, listen & learn.

    All of the above people have offered you words of wisdom, regardless of harsh tones or personal feelings… myself included. If you freely admit that your actions were dumb, don’t get your panties in a twist when someone calls you out on it. Alot of lessons we have learned along the way have been learned the hard way or by similar instruction. By the way, speaking of learning lessons…. don’t ever, ever, as in never ever, question a respected member of this communities status, online or off.

    Glenn S is right, be patient… All things happen for a reason and in their own time.

    Now, before I go I’ll give you a nickels worth of free piece of advice I picked up from a patch in California… “Never pass up a golden opportunity to Shut the Fuck Up!”


  575. Snow Says:

    @ Arctic
    No problem, glad to pass on the info. Remember what’s been spoken of here, lots of great info from people who know, finding a fit isn’t easy or something that happens quickly, be respectful, listen more than speak and always be truthful. As Glen S mentioned, you’ll be where your supposed to be…..

  576. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Arctic …

    I The best advice I can give you is:

    1. stay independent

    2. when in the vicinity of patchholders … avoid any conversation with a patchholder, you will only say the wrong thing.

    3. do not attempt to crack jokes with a patchholder. I seriously doubt you will tell the joke correctly.

    4. when at motorcycle shops …. shut the fuck up. you don’t know who is listening to you

    Now I need to get back to looking for Bravo1. You aren’t his partner and trying to take attention away from him… are you?

  577. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1….

    We were having such a wonderful come to Jesus moment yesterday. Don’t run away and hide now.

    My last question to you was …..

    “So, do you want me and others following these posts to believe that you do not also break the law?”

    All it requires is another YES or NO answer. No nodding your head. We can’t see that.

  578. Grumbler Says:

    @(btb) back to basics – That wonderful come to Jesus moment along with Bravo1 (manure spreader) being conspicuously silent just now gave me a flashback to that psychedelic poster from 1966: … Bravo1 would do well to heed these 9 words under the Indian. Respects.

  579. JIM666 Says:

    btb he,s not gonna answer you, at least if he does it wont be the real honest truth, Im sure you already know that, these peices of shit come to this and many other sites to stir the shit and to look for someone stupid enough to comment a fed offence on the net , they are only here for one reason, the stupid fucks know they are the biggest criminal organisation in the free world yet they pretend to be law abiding people that only uphold the laws and never break them, if there was ever a honest cop then he would no doubtably have to file R.I.C.O. charges on his brethern which i,ve yet to see or even hear of like what red and gold has stated more cops are in the news for breaking the law that all patch holders of every club dailey, that in it,s self tell,s me and should tell everyone else that they are the biggest criminal organisation in the world,
    That is if you lump them all together as they do us, I belong to a motorcycle club and granted not all of our members are saints, now this bravo 1 is a cop which means he belongs to this group of individuals that not all members of are saints, so why can they file R.I.C.O. charges on us but none have ever been filed on them ?? this never fails to confuse me. I just cant understand the way this works, unless maby, just maby they are above the law ?? now is that possable ? it often makes me wonder, why cant a private citizen file R.I.C.O. charges on all the local and federal abc and cop gang,s??? after all more crime per capata is commented by them than all members of all m/c & I hate to bunch these guys w/ any mc but street gangs world wide , there is no disputing the facts, and come to think of it I cant recall any biker ever tazing elderley bed riddin people after breaking in there homes and Ive heard of cops doing just that reacently, ok enough of bashing the pig gang , well not really but i,ll move on anyway, to this Artic cat, you havnt a clue, not all 1% mc,s fly 3 peice there are plenty that fly one patch, so you might wanna rethink your mission, if you are really wanting to look into a club, find a party or something to that effect and go to a patch holder from that club and interduce yourself, if you have what it takes and are what they are looking for you,ll be informed, just remember be very respectful you only get one chance at a 1st impression

    to the rest of you, Respects Jim

  580. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1….

    I’ll get to the point of where I’ve been leading you to…

    You and members of your association (LEO) took an oath to abide by the laws and uphold the Constitution. I DIDN’T. By your own admission, you are involved in an organization that has members who break those laws they swore to uphold. You and your associates have been taught that you are above the law. You hate the fact that some of us (US citizens) will stand up to you and defy your arrogance.

    You and your associates live within a system where dishonesty has become the norm. The concept of truth has become so distorted to you and your associates that you no longer know what it is. You and your associates have been taught that to distort the truth somehow is for the betterment of society. Yet, when you and your associates break the laws you have little to no accountability. When you toy with others lives and hide (coward) behind the powers invested to you, you once again justify it in your distorted way. May I remind you of a situation that happened in San Diego in March 31, 1985. It involved a man named Sagon Penn. I commend him on his actions and standing up for himself.

    Bravo1, you are a coward. You are a hypocrite. You are a criminal.

    You chose to go into a profession that you knew was filled with corruption, which tells me that you have found an avenue for your own corruptive ways. You stand by (when you too aren’t involved) and look the other way when your associates willfully violate the law and trample on others rights. You and your associates fabricate charges and evidence and willfully lie in the courts of law with no regard for the hardship you impose on others.

    And …. you want respect.


    Long live the memory of Sagon Penn

  581. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to JIM666

    You posted while I was writing and I’ll be damed… someone else of the same mindset. Go figure. I really hate those pathetic fucks.

  582. Bravo1 Says:

    Coward? Nope. Hypocrite? Nope again. Criminal? Again sadly you are wrong.

    Forgive me for not anxiously sitting by the computer waiting for the next round of nonsense. I’ve already stated that I don’t break the law. You don’t believe it? That’s you’re own insecurity showing.

    I’ve told the truth. Hard to recognize it I suppose when it’s “cool” to emulate Sons of Anarchy. Any type of job will have criminals in it. So by your own statements, there are no cops that do good things. How narrow minded could you possibly get? Sigh

    But, I am a Christian and believe we all have our place according to God’s plan. And yes, I’m sure the next question is are there any sinners or criminals associated with Christianity…of course there are.

    Ride safe and God bless.

  583. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 ….

    You still didn’t answer my question.

    Do you break the law?

    Yes or No

  584. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 ….

    Let me rephrase my last question

    Do you EVER break the law?

    Yes or No

  585. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 ….

    I will check back later for you response. Time for me to go out and break the law some more. Your response to my question requires a simple yes or no answer. Feel free to ramble on after the answer.

  586. sled tramp Says:

    Bravo 1-
    I haven’t been commenting on this as you seem to have your cuffs full.Perhaps,as you say, you simply wish to express your opinion.
    ” I suppose when it’s “cool” to emulate Sons of Anarchy” that’s just downright insulting.
    Geeeezzz…and here we’ve gone out our way to be pen pals and everything…

  587. Phuquehed Says:

    @Arctic – You ‘fixed’ things, for the most part, heh, with that next post after replying to mine. At least you seem willing to learn. I’m good with it if you are now.

  588. Arctic Says:

    To Phuquehead
    I’m good with you; I was wrong for what i wrote, Isnt the first time probably wont be the last. After reading BTB last post to me it is obvious that I’m not giving the correct impression of the type of man I am. I have some life experience and know how to behave, if you will, in public. I enjoy this site especially Rebels Rides so I’m going to go back to being a silent observer.
    Much Respect

  589. Bravo1 Says:

    Okay, the jibe at SOA was a bit overboard for true bikers that embrace the road and comradery of brothers. I apologize for being rude!

    No, I do not knowingly break the law. I am certain that my actions in life do not harm anyone. Im sure I go over the speed limit when not paying attention (singing with the radio, or after eating a bug on a bike ride). If I get pulled over, I don’t cry and flash my badge hoping for a warning instead of a ticket. It’s all part of life. You can ride a motorcycle and not hate cops. I believe just a DL and insurance are the only requirements, not hating a certain group.

    Come to think of it, when I surf new beaches, there are locals sometimes that don’t embrace newbies in “turf”, not much different than 1% ers with other clubs. But less violence, more peace.

  590. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 …

    Son-of-a-gun…. It appears that I have finally discovered who Jesus is…. it’s Bravo1.

    And, you come to us in the form of the greatest evil (a criminal organization … LEO) and now want to hide behind the vail of christianity (hypocrite & coward). Like that’s supposed to make me give a shit.

    I didn’t seek you out. You chose to come into our arena in an attempt to provoke. I find you entertaining.

    So, tell me. How’s it feel to be the one on trial? Here’s the really cool part… I’m doing it in a public forum read my millions.

    Are you starting to feel as if you are being falsely attacked? You feeling that it’s not fair because you are a “good cop” that works with bad cops (hypocrite) and you shouldn’t be held accountable? According to your standards, that makes you a criminal (guilt by association).

    It’s obvious I know how to getting your feathers ruffled and you don’t hold up well under pressure.

    I could toy with you for days. I find it just as fun as when you all pull me over. Really bugs the shit out of you guys being faced with someone that you don’t scare. Do we need to take a potty break before we continue?

    I guess I’m not much unlike you when it comes to forming opinions about people. I personally believe you are a coward, a hypocrite and a criminal.

    I guess I will leave the verdict up to the public jury. Who knows, maybe they will find you innocent.

    I’m not the one that seeks you out. You (LEO) come looking to provoke and I happen to be one of those people that won’t run.

    I stand by my previous comment until I’m shown just cause to think differently….. FUCK YOU and YOUR ASSOCIATES.

  591. Drifter Says:


    This jam started in December and still phucking rumbling…

    I don’t see that much in forums or comment sections for that length of time, AR’s site keeps it WFO…


  592. OneEye Says:

    “I’ve already stated that I don’t break the law. You don’t believe it? That’s you’re own insecurity showing.”

    I beg to differ: I believe that’s your hubris and your denial showing. Have you ever rolled a STOP sign? Driven over the posted speed limit? You have NEVER violated any ONE of the myriad statutes on the books? You sound very arrogant and you know,”pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.” Being a Christian is irrelevant. I’ve been down that road and watched good Christians act far worse than the heathens they were supposed to save. I always think one thing about Christians: if you couldn’t tell ANYONE that you were a Christian, would they know it by your lifestyle?

  593. Bravo1 Says:

    Hahahaha! Missing the point again! I said I don’t knowingly break the law. So going over the speed limit is the same a committing rape, beating children, dealing drugs, or murder. Come on, before you try to put anyone on trial, you surely must realize that it seems you’re a bit disgruntled that you couldn’t get a police job. And talking smack in a forum is very intimidating. I’m sure it works well on women and children. Anyway I’m sure you’re DL is valid and u have insurance….not really a true nonconformist as you’d like others to believe.
    Yes, others would know that I’m a Christian by my lifestyle. Not Jesus like (btb) wished.
    As for ruffling my feathers, come on now.
    Don’t care either that u can put cuss words in caps either. Hopefully your mother doesn’t read your comments and ground you. Change your diaper and remember….riding on the back of a motorcycle doesn’t make you a biker, makes you a bitch.
    Please don’t fret, I’m not going to go out and start writing a bunch of tickets to bikers because u hate cops. Not sure if I’m even joining IOMC. Bikers where I’m at know that I’m a cop and I’m fair. Even shares beers with 1% ers. Guess the jury is still out.

    But I will say one thing regarding corrupt cops…they should be thrown out on their asses. They make the rest of us work harder.

  594. Glenn S. Says:

    Bravo, I think you’re here to just fuck with the bikers, especially the club members. And so you’ve missed an important point: Could be that some bikers and/or club members break the law. Could be that some law enforcement officers break the law. Yet when club members break the law, law enforcement characterizes all club members as criminals, their clubs as criminal organizations, and seeks to punish each and every one of them for the actions of a few. Yet when law enforcement officers break the law, law enforcement as a whole characterizes these occurrances as isolated incidents perpetrated by a few bad apples.

    It has been my personal experience that the overall conflict between cops and (fill in the blank) is not one of good vs. evil, but just different sides in a conflict. Law enforcement is by far the worse “gang”, as it has managed to force everybody to fund their efforts, and seeks to control, where their victims more often than not only seek to live and let live. How would you feel if a member of a motorcycle club used trickery and deceit to infiltrate your police department with the express purpose of instigating crimes by your fellow officers?

    Then there’s the law itself, and the common misconception that just because something is legal it is right and just because something is illegal it is wrong. If one carefully examines the process of lawmaking in this day and time, especially the influence of special interests in lawmaking, and today’s political science practices and theories, that lie becomes obvious. Enforcing the law is not some high-minded purpose, it is ganglike activity. Yet anytime people band together for a common purpose like a love of motorcycles, and don’t express fealty to the laws, you (law enforcement) calls them a gang!

    It is also my experience that most of the time, when someone says thet he is a Christian, he is seeking to fool me into thinking he is one of the good guys, that he is playing a trump card that he thinks will excuse him from being an asshole. I, personally, don’t care what book somebody believes to be the word of God or what building he visits on Sunday. But I’ve studied history and the Christian religion has behaved in a ganglike manner for most of its time on earth, burning “witches”, taking territory by force of arms, and torturing thse who dare speak against them Whenever and wherever possible, they have managed to have their beliefs codified into law that applies to believers and non-believers alike. Then they feed a few hungry people and insist that they be classified as charitable, rather than killers.

    The usual disclaimer: I’m not a member of a club and so speak only for myself.

  595. (btb) back to basics Says:


    Keep talking. I rest my case.

    Long live the memory of Sagon Penn.

  596. Glenn S. Says:

    Just googled Sagon Penn. Indeed, long live his memory.

  597. RollingNigga4life Says:

    This is probably a cop. Rebel

    You crackers are funny! We know who da true brother riders are! Ain’t no white clubs or po po gonna be riding in my hood. We will be riding in yours crackers! Rofl!

  598. Tooj Says:

    Bravo, you initially wrote:

    “Well Im a cop. Thank your for paying my salary…wow, what a yuppie phrase. So how about a raise then? Ive never planted evidence, beat on anyone, or covered for a dirty cop. Does that make me 1% since Im not the norm of LE? If there were no cops, who would protect the public? Would the public have to choose between a club that sells meth or one that sells weed? But this is America, I served, Im proud, and I will wear what I want. Ive rode motorcycles before I became a cop, and will continue to do so. If I decide to join any club, its my choice. We are all Americans. If you dont like it America, leave it.

    If cops on bikes are weekend warriors, what does that make the biker who drives a minivan or truck when its raining? Minivans are a “soccer moms” claim to fame, and trucks are for rednecks. Come on now. Not all bikers are career criminals, not all cops are corrupt.

    How can you be down on SOA, when you make statements of playing “Red Dawn”? Cheering for communists now? Sigh. I enjoyed the Shield (dirty cops meaning well) and also SOA (bikers meaning well). But I dont go to work acting a character from TV. Or go to bars hoping for a brawl.

    Do correctional Officers and bouncers count as cops too? Just wondering”

    Let’s just say, for instance, that you may have come in here to see if you could offend anyone. Or perhaps just needed to get your jollies out on a particular stereotype of individuals? Broke out the Captain Crapslinger 3000 keyboard and away we go.

    Yes, I pay your salary and being flip about it tells me volumes about you.

    Relating that if there were zero police that the public would perhaps choose between a club selling meth or selling weed for protection. Again, you are being disrespectful about a lifestyle in a location where many persons of that lifestyle will be reading. Also speaks quite a bit about the sort of person you are. I wonder how a police forum would respond if a bunch of dirty old bikers began disparaging them on their “virtual home turf”. Bet there would be an ordinance enacted.

    “I would wear what I want” is also rather disparaging when you consider that many are profiled for doing just that. Many folks have brought this up in one way or another, but you would prefer to only look at it from your perspective? Again, telling on your character.

    So, I would ask: “Why are you even posting here if not to see who you can tweak?”

  599. JIM666 Says:

    Bravo 1 your a stright out dipshit
    now you say your a christian ,So what ? is that supposed to hold some speacial endorsment ? Well for me I couldnt care what you are other than the fact your a cop hence a member of the most corrupt organization in the United states.
    Now Glenn S. just hit the proverbial nail on the head.
    Bravo1 you said : “I said I don’t knowingly break the law. So going over the speed limit is the same a committing rape, beating children, dealing drugs, or murder”
    are you trying to insinuate something by this comment?
    I can say truthfully that my club has never done any of these things, nor has any other motorcycle club to my knowledge, Hence the fact certian members of various clubs have been charged and in some cases convicted of such,The same goes for your membership,
    save the fact very few of your membership are ever tried and or convicted.
    look into Russel Doza , James Hicks,
    Derek J. Hale,Joseph McGuire,
    shit thats just four and three of the four were blantly murdered by your “gang ” rite in front of there familys
    the other instance a cop “off duty cop dressed up as a mc “gang” member carried a concelled weapon inside a bar
    the fact is I can find somewhere in the U.S. something about a cop breaking the law almost every single day,
    whereas once in awhile I see articles claiming cops raid biker club or something to that effect, yet countless clubs have been charged w/ this RICO bullshit,
    how come your big blue gang hasnt ?
    So Saint Bravo1 can you honestly answer any of the questions,
    oh yea p.s. if your such an honest law abiding cop why dont you come to where i live and arrest all these dishonest law breaking cops here
    or start a RICO investigation into all the fed local and state police forces branches or whatever the fuck you call them, break into there homes at 4 am w/ simi autos and masks over your heads, Im sure you,ll find some kinda evidence of something
    Damn I hate cops, F.T.F.& F.T.P.
    OH yea by the way my DL isnt valed

  600. (btb) back to basics Says:

    I must thank Bravo1 for bringing others together in a common cause of fighting the injustice and corruption created by law enforcement. With all their power and deception, they still have failed at making us go away.

  601. Bravo1 Says:

    Yawn. Questions were already answered.

    So you generalize all police. But piss and moan about When it’s hinted that 1% ers and drugs are related. So JIM666 (original) you can find an article everyday about corrupt cops. If you’re upset over the harm they do, go to school and becomes lawyer and do something about it. I believe that if youre honest, then you see more crimes invovling drugs. FTP? When women and children are being beaten and raped, possibly your family, who are you going to turn to? What if it was your buddy hurting your family? Would you give him a pass? A high five?

    As for paying my salary, never was offended by that. Just asked for a raise! If there was no crime, there would not be need for any cops. Job security right there.pays the bills, puts food on the table, and helps the community. No problem sleeping at night. Can u say he same? Do u help your community? Or just take the free handouts?

    Feed your own ego, go commit crimes (worse than a traffic violation), and go to prison. Sigh. Great plan there. Now my taxes pay for your incarceration, and u pay my salary, see the cycle? Or do I needa crayon to draw it out for you?

  602. Rebel Says:

    Dear RollingNigga4life,

    Really? A black club in rural Kansas? Really? I have spoken to an “outlaw motorcycle gang investigator” in Kansas. I believe he is white. In his photo he looks white. Really? “You crackers are funny!” Who says that in the 21st Century? “Who da true brother riders are!” Your ebonics needs work. Did you mean “who da true brother riders be!” Have you met the Vagos? What is your relationship to the Galloping Goose and El Forastero? Do you talk to them like this?

    Nice try asshole,

  603. Rebel Says:

    Dear Bravo1,

    “No, I do not knowingly break the law.” Ignorance of the law is no excuse and everybody breaks the law all the time. American law is a mad soul. The Apostle Paul wrote, “The law causeth wrath. Where there is no law there is no transgression.” Today, just for fun, why don’t you run a couple of lights.


  604. OneEye Says:

    Contrary to your thoughts I’m not trying to put anyone on trial. I’m trying to prove the point that your statement of “I don’t break the law” is tantamount to, and as ridiculous as saying you don’t sin. Would I know your Christian lifestyle? Certainly not by your posts. I’m amused how you arbitrarily pulled that out. You hurl enough insults and readily engage in a pissing match. Reminds me a bit of The Beatitudes. I remember learning two things when I was in a debate with anyone: 1)Col. 4:6… “Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” and 2) when I knew things were at a moribund state Mat. 7:6…”Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.” As far as not being able to become a LEO: I have no record, I have never been arrested or had any scrape with the law and in my younger years could have become a cop. My eye may have posed a problem. Moreover, my youngest son apprised me that he was considering a career in LE and believe me when I tell you that when he changed his mind I was elated. Driving with a valid DL and insurance is being a conformist? Well then I guess so is paying your bills and putting on clothes. Your contentions are juvenile and you are a fake. By the way, the way you spelled “you” gives me the feeling your some kid in a basement having fun stirring the pot or a very immature adult who spends far too much time sending text messages.

  605. Glenn S. Says:

    Re, Do correctional Officers and bouncers count as cops too? Just wondering”

    I believe it was Mark Twain that said: “If you ever want to see the scum of the earth, go to any American prison at shift change.”

  606. sled tramp Says:

    Out cruising my rural world when I saw a mini van with flashing red light ahead.
    “OMG…it’s the soccer mom police!”
    Got closer and realized it was the mail route lady.
    This entire thread has just got me on edge….
    Bravo 1, you go put your WWJD (what would Jesus do) band on and I’ll go put my WWJD (what would Jax do) band on and by golly we’ll both be right.
    You seem to enjoy baiting and fishing. So, I think I’ll leave you, a master baiter,to play with yourself while I enjoy my summer day.

  607. 10Gauge Says:


    “When women and children are being beaten and raped, possibly your family, who are you going to turn to? What if it was your buddy hurting your family? Would you give him a pass? A high five?”

    WHAT A SICK ASSHOLE you are! You keep going back to that don’t you. Seems like you are awful preoccupied with that type of behavior. DISGUSTING… Tell you what. IF that happened to someone in my family I would take care of it myself. The last thing I would do would be to call one of you bumbling idiots. Your team did a nice job protecting Jaycee Dugard…What a joke. You are perfect for the IOMC. I am glad you posted here because it just makes the point so crystal clear.

    It is good to be me,

  608. 10Gauge Says:


    You know in this life your word is your bond…I have been honest with you. I only hope you have the respect for yourself, this forum, and all who visit here to do the same. I know you posted as arctic wrench and some other names…Is 12gauge one of them?

    Strength, Respect, Honor,

  609. OneEye Says:

    “You crackers are funny! We know who da true brother riders are! Ain’t no white clubs or po po gonna be riding in my hood. We will be riding in yours crackers! Rofl!”

    Where do you even begin with this?! Let me guess; some wannabe “gangsta” white kid in a suburb with baggy pants, a slightly off centre ball cap and a new Eminem cd, who has circumvented Mommy’s security on her computer. Well Sporto, what are you waiting for? You should be looking for Daddy’s Playboy magazines. If you’re not white your ebonics need work Skippy.

  610. Grumbler Says:

    @Bravo1 – You’d be far happier downloading porn and jerkin’ off given your insatiable need for self-gratification. Your comments are asinine and benighted, but you’re too intellectually insipid to acknowledge the fact that you’re completely full of shit.

  611. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Bravo1 ….

    I don’t know why you use the name Bravo1. Abbreviating doesn’t apply here. It actually has the same letters as “Bitch1″

    I’ll answer your question… “When women and children are being beaten and raped, possibly your family, who are you going to turn to?”

    Ask the feds and cops monitoring this site and tracking my posts what I’d do. They know. It’s already public record. I invite you to use your investigative skills to find me and come test the waters for yourself. I even invite you to bring your gun. You will have a come to Jesus moment.

    With the common knowledge that sites like this are monitored, it continues to amaze me how they (feds & LEO) refuse to also track and pursue fucks like you and your criminal associates.

    Guess I’ll get out my crayons and back to coloring.

    Actually, I really do that with my grandkids and enjoy doing so.

  612. (btb) back to basics Says:

    Sounds like Bitch1 or one of his associates are trying to divert attention under another name.

    RollingNigga4life Says:
    July 11th, 2012 at 8:32 am

    “You crackers are funny! We know who da true brother riders are! Ain’t no white clubs or po po gonna be riding in my hood. We will be riding in yours crackers! Rofl!”

  613. Bravo1 Says:

    Wow. A come to Jesus moment. Love the threats. Truth is, you’d piss yourself in real life. This isn’t a video game contest. Your typing is shaky, scary picturing you holding a gun. Then again, you’d probably be protected by 10 other dudes that used you as a cum dumpster. You must not be receiving enough food stamps.

    It’s funny that you comment on my username….I gave you credit for the (btb) meaning back to basics…..I can see now that it means ‘boy to boy’. That’s why you truly ride, you’re an old lady!

    Please don’t comment under another name, you fool no one. Not that I will be coming back to check. This was amusing at best. But like your jaw muscles, it’s worn out. Peace out my brother bikers!

  614. Red&Gold Says:

    Bravo 1….RE: Your Last Post:

    How Christian of you….

  615. rollinnorth Says:

    The best (legal) way to deal with LE trolls (like with little kids):
    Definition of SHUN
    transitive verb: to avoid deliberately and especially habitually.

  616. OneEye Says:

    This guy is an absolute poser and fake. He’s NOT a true Christian, and please don’t judge others by this mouth breather. He’s a typical arrogant LEO, IF he is even that. One thing for sure is that he is one of those clowns who finds a site, takes an adversarial stance, makes inflammatory remarks and then watches the ensuing fireworks with glee. Waste of bandwidth.

  617. Chief Says:

    Wow, this guy is a 69th level, World-of-Warcraft, fireball throwing super troll. I just re-read the posts on this article from top to bottom and ol’ B1 raised trolling to an art form. This guy is truly a twenty-something, livin-in-his-mom’s-basement, greasy blow-up doll in the corner, internet invulnerable douchebag. Hey there, superguy,go play with your star wars toys with you’re friend rollinigga4life and leave grown up conversations to the grown-ups. If you are truly a cop, you must work on 21 jump street. Unbelieveable.


  618. swampy Says:

    Bravo1, are you willing to “turn the other cheek?”(maybe in your case, spread the other cheek). Didn’t think so. I’m not. I don’t know any christians; just a bunch of people claiming to be.

    No respect for you,

  619. Derelict Says:

    New guy here. Much respect to all you fine folks. Rebel, I love your writing man. It would be a better world if all journalists had your integrity. You are the real deal.

    So, I ride around SoCal independently, not due to any principle but more because that is just how my life has gone thus far. I just got a bike and started riding again last year after several rough years of complete poverty and generally failing at life’s practical aspects. Things are better now and my bike is my only transpo, my meditation, my passion…you know. I grew up in a small SoCal town known for its biker culture and history and associated with club folk quite a bit by way of my family when I was a teen. That said, I have never held a patch and therefore don’t know shit. So I won’t comment on any of that because I am not qualified to do so.

    However I have had occasion to be arrested, coerced, convicted, subjected etc. I learned a few things about cops that way. I also had the misfortune of being fathered by a police officer, who is now retired. Even though I got the hell out of there around age 12 and ended up being raised in my teens by the biker side of the family, I witnessed the cop culture destroy the old man’s spirit. Much as I hated the guy when I was younger, nowadays I find it more sad than anything. Not that I sympathize or anything remotely like it, but the badge seems to poison its bearer along with its victims. It is bad news for everyone involved.

    Anyway in my opinion the core problem with police work is that its foundation is wholly built on a particularly cruel form of deception. From moment one of an encounter, be it a traffic stop, detainment, conversation or probably even a donut purchase, a police officer is attempting to trick and coerce a “subject” into foregoing his Constitutionally guaranteed right to refrain from bearing witness against himself. The Constitution, which is meant to protect the people, is an obstacle for a police officer to find a way around. That immediately and inherently pits a cop against the welfare of “We the People.”

    That being the case, I don’t see how any cop in this country deserves any respect whatsoever. A respectable person with honor and integrity does not manipulate others into surrendering rights. It is one of the lowest things you can do to a person in my eyes.

    The Miranda Warning might as well state “I am about to disrespect you and attempt to manipulate you out of your Constitutional rights. You cannot trust me in any way shape or form.” And you know the next thing out of their mouths after they deliver the Miranda Warning is always “Look I’m trying to help you here.” Among “We the People” that is known as bitch-assed, two-faced, lowlife behavior. Among cops it is known as good police work. Their so-called “good police work” has caused countless unnecessary deaths, broken families, wrongful incarcerations and most of all the erosion of our basic American rights.

    This does not protect the public, this destroys the validity of what is meant to be a Constitutional Republic. There is plenty more pathology in cop culture but this is the real insulting, rotten, cancerous core of it.

    Honestly these cops emulating biker-folk sort of reminds me of “Nightmare Before Christmas” when Jack the Pumpkin King, in a desperate attempt to find something genuine within himself kidnaps Santa Claus, puts him in a box and proceeds to emulate Santa. Due to his inherent inability to understand what the tradition is all about he ends up ruining Christmas for every kid he comes in contact with. Only difference is Jack actually figures out what he does wrong and then proceeds to right the wrong.

    Now being a problem-solver by nature, for anyone who can use it, I think I’ll also post a link to a website that has some good advice on how to avoid screwing yourself when confronted by the heat. Their site is coming from a radical leftist angle, but those guys deal with the same shit from the cops that bikers do. Plus the advice is in the form of comics, which makes it a kind of entertaining.

  620. (btb) back to basics Says:

    I actually was entertained with the interaction with Bitch1. Push long enough and one can always to get them to show their true colors. They aren’t used to confrontation. I enjoyed watching his mask came down. He went from posing as an upstanding moral cop to showing his true character.

    “Bravo1 Says:
    July 9th, 2012 at 5:20 am
    “Does that make me 1% since Im not the norm of LE?”

    No. He is the “NORM” and that makes him a 100%er.

    He’s a shining example of a traditional cop and I take pleasure of reminding him.

    I repeat …. Long live the memory of Sagon Penn.

  621. Diocletian Says:

    The whole thing with cops goes beyond the law and those who break it, the entire system is fucked. No man in this world should ever be arrested, be forced to acquire legal representation and still get convicted for carrying a weapon to defend himself(for example). Who in their right fucking mind would take a job and enforce laws like that?

  622. DGAF Says:

    Dude, you’re a fucking lame and so is the urine order. The chapter in Northern Nevada prospected and got their patches thru the mail. You are a punk and it has nothing to do with you not wanting to be a real biker. Oh and I don’t care how much you ride you’re nothing but a fucking coward in my book. Now, go fuck yourself.

  623. Arctic Says:

    Dear 10 Guage
    I may be guilty of being a little ignorant to the MC lifestyle. But one thing I am not is a liar. You are correct, I did comment as Arctic Wrench a couple of times, when I first discovered the site. I’m a Mechanic on the Alaskan Oilfield. Then decided to just shorten it to Arctic. I intended no deception. As for this 12Guage cat, that is NOT me. Arctic Wrench then Arctic are the only names I’ve used on this site.
    With Respect

  624. Arctic Says:

    Dear 10Guage
    I just tried to reply to your post but my phone locked up so I’m not sure if it went through. If it did then I apologize for the redundancy. You are correct, I did use the name Arctic Wrench when I first discovered this site. Then I decided to shorten it to Arctic after I’d looked around the threads and saw nobody else was using the name. I intended no deception, Arctic Wrench and Arctic are the only two names I’ve used here. I think Rebel can see where the comments are coming from and is able to identify when somebody is using different names from the same IP. Not 100% sure of that but I think so because I’ve seen where he has called some other folks out on that. As for this 12Gauge cat, I am not him and do not know him. It was a legitimate question and I’m happy to clear it up incase other folks were wondering the same thing.
    With Respect

  625. JIM666 Says:

    Bravo1 says “If you’re upset over the harm they do, go to school and becomes lawyer and do something about it. I believe that if youre honest, then you see more crimes invovling drugs.”

    1st off yes I see a hell of alot of crimes involving drugs,
    and just so happend 3 of the local towns where I live in the past 3 years the chief of police in all cases were the top dogs involved in the distrabution of meth, oxycodone,hydracodone,and weed, among statutory rape of a 16 yr old girl at a party hosted by the said P.D. to help women of sexual abuse I guess in the eyes of the law that was the most appropeate place for it

    your next question = “FTP? When women and children are being beaten and raped, possibly your family, who are you going to turn to? What if it was your buddy hurting your family? Would you give him a pass? A high five?”

    Now 1st of all my buddies as you call them would never harm my family in any way, It seems we,ve been thru this one time before w/ another cop on here, and I DO NOT DIAL 911 any problems that involve me my family or brothers we handle ourselves as your laws do not work,
    Hopefully Ive answered your questions and not attempted to evade them as you seem to do,


  626. Diocletian Says:

    I kind of wish this site had a forum, would be pretty hilarious/interesting i think

  627. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Diocletian …

    Why do you want to change what is already working well?

    Rebel has a great site the way it is.

  628. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Diocletian …

    Or… you can start your own web site.

  629. Diocletian Says:

    not talking about removing comments or anything, forums are a little easier to read. Im not trying to say anything is wrong with his site haha.

  630. (btb) back to basics Says:

    Diocletian …

    Just fucking with you. I had to chuckle when I saw your other post. It reminds me of when prospects get patched and all of a sudden, they want to try changing the club. Hope you have a great evening.

  631. Diocletian Says:

    haha you fucker. have a good one

  632. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to bravo1 ….

    I know you are still out there. Just as in the story of David and Goliath… your bluff was called and you were taken down.

  633. Red&Gold Says:

    Re-Reading this book and I had to post this…maybe bravo (I’m sure he is still lurking) will get a little idea of why everyone, including him, now breaks the law….

    “Did you really think we want those laws observed?” said Dr. Ferris. “We want them to be broken. You’d better get it straight that it’s not a bunch of boy scouts you’re up against… We’re after power and we mean it… There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What’s there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Reardon, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.”

    –Ayn Rand (‘Atlas Shrugged’ 1957)

  634. Phuquehed Says:

    @Red&Gold – Thanks for bringing that up. I keep forgetting to try and find that book in the newsgroups so I can read it and now at least I have it ‘written down’ so I *hopefully* won’t forget again, heh.

  635. OneEye Says:

    “It is a just person who disobeys an unjust law.” – Plato (427-347 BC)

  636. Barry Says:

    Been trying to read this and makes sense of it all. It is just as convoluted as making sense out of the real world. I have been riding independent since ’76. Don’t do well be told what to do by anyone. I understand 1% way of life and it should be treasured protected from the other 99% of the biker world. Its not the same. LEO’s in MC’s are an issue. Just like a weed in a garden. It has to be pulled out. The world we bikers live in are seperated between the 1% and 99%. The remaining part of life doesn’t understand either the 1% or 99%. We are all just too damn competitive to get along. Doesn’t make sense, doesn’t have to.

  637. PigPen Says:

    Well, I am of the school of thought, if i went out and bought a pig’s uniform and put it on, badge and handcuffs and all the crap you can buy and put on. If I went out in the street looking like, I would get arrested for impersonating a pork chopper. Just because I can buy the uniform does not make me one of them.
    Same thing should apply to them. Just because they can buy a patch, and buy a vest, does not mean they should be wearing it. It offends those of us, that put our time in, probated DAILY for an undetermined amount of time, went on runs, stayed up for days on end, all for the right to call people Brother, and earn our colors. I didn’t buy mine, I sweated, fought, and more than once got my fucking “I” dotted for it.
    So fuck them, fuck what they think they deserve, I know they didn’t earn shit and will never have my respect.

  638. Barry Says:

    Couldn’t agree more w/PigPen. The nuevo rich RC/MC’s like Iron Order are not 1%’ers. They are just patched motorcycle riding clubs but part of the rest of the riding community – the 99%. Nothing more. The real 1% clubs are a vital part of our world; representing the true rebel outlaw spirit. We need the 1% clubs to illustrate what true commitment is to be contrary to the established norm. Often the established norm becomes oppressive and an established vehicle for corruption. Like now with a militarized police state herding sheeple.

  639. Dustin Says:

    Go PigPen….Could not have said it better.

  640. Junior Says:

    Damn, what a thread. I think it’s a gonna tax your database rebel.

    A recent personal experience: Went to the local grocery to get milk or something for the OL. Noticed a patch on a guy that looked like a cop. Got my milk and got in line to pay. Happens that this cop looking patch is in front of me, it says “Enforcers” and looks like a SOA patch colored slightly differently. I says “Whats enforcers”. The guy says “we’re a law enforcement club”. I says: I thought MC’s and cops were opposites, why do you imitate outlaw motorcycle gangs?” He looks a little puzzled, then responds “cops are the biggest gang in the world”.

    He was a goof and obviously an idiot, but I am still disturbed by his response. -Junior

  641. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Junior …

    “cops are the biggest gang in the world”

    Well… at least he admitted what we already knew.

  642. swampy Says:

    Brand new Harley Road King…17 grand….Brand new complete outlaw costume(including pig patch?)….1200 bucks……Junior’s experience at the grocery store….FUCKING PRICELESS!!! Junior, you’ve made my day – LOL!

    With the highest regards and respect.

  643. Crazy8 Says:

    I greatly enjoy reading these pages. There are some great and varied opinions here. Also, some very, very funny takes. A lot of it is bullshit, but entertaining bullshit!

    I grew up fast………..maybe a little too fast, and it was by the grace of God my early lifestyle choices didn’t kill me or land me in rehab. I have been on both sides of the proverbial fence.

    I am now a 50 something male. In my mid 20’s became an LEO in the Bay Area. I had opportunity to have many interactions with members of the “biggest” club around. Some of those interactions were good and some were not. Many of those guys I dealt with have passed on now. I grew up with a couple of brothers whose Pop was in the big club. He was a painter at a GM plant in Fremont. He was a blue-collar guy and I remember he was a good dad and always treated me well. I also grew up and ran with a couple guys who went on to join the same club. Perhaps those experiences tempered me from having a negative, preconceived stereotype of every biker I saw or see now. I don’t know. I’ve known a few bikers (1%’ers) whom, if I’d been in a different line of work, I’d have wanted to spend time with. I’ve also known some guys, whom if they were in a different line of ‘work’, I would want at my side in a war.

    It’s interesting there are so many similarities between between LE agencies and 1% clubs. There’s a probation/prospect period. There’s structure and hierarchy. Both camps are quasi-military and like to festoon their ‘uniforms’ with all sorts of ridiculous looking ribbons and adornments. There’s (hopefully) leadership and usually some discipline from the top. There’s some great guys and some flaming assholes in both camps.

    Curiously, something I have not seen mentioned before in all the LD, SOA and IO posts, is that “The Chief” had a role in one or two SOA episodes and another member, who apparently began as a technical consultant with SOA, now has a regular role on the show. That’s showbiz, I guess. Didn’t seem to give SOA much more of an air of authenticity though. Some irony in that.

    I think a great deal of 1%’ers and wannabe’s who might frequent this and other biker oriented sites, look at all LEO’s the same way they feel LEO’s look at them. Often times all LE is viewed with fear, trepidation, hatred or disdain. Many of those beliefs are perpetuated by rumor, innuendo, misinformation and plain old malice. I’m not saying LE is the 1%’ers friend. Clearly, that’s not the case. But not every LEO is out to get you either.

    I worked for a large agency and I never heard an edict/order handed down, in over 25 years of service, to wage a campaign of harassment against 1%’ers. I was involved in some investigations against them and the agency I was employed by conducted many OMG investigations. There were many 1%’ers in the area who were involved in many different criminal activities, but there were also many who were not.

    I worked with some of the aforementioned “flaming assholes” and I hated it because those were the guys who made my job so much harder to do. It was not that difficult to find people slippin’ when they were doing their dirt, so I personally never felt the need to maliciously go after someone or fabricate bullshit on ‘em. They would usually hang themselves in due time. I cultivated patience rather than to be overzealous.

    My job was my job for 8, 10 12 or more hours a day. I sometimes enjoyed it and sometimes hated it. People can be so unbelievably shitty and inhumane to one another.

    At the end of the day, I just wanted to put my jeans and a t-shirt on and hang up my uniform and my gun and let all of that go ’til next time. I wanted to go home and roll around on the grass with my little kids and dream, smoke a cigar, put some blues on the box, maybe crack a beer once in awhile.

    Never, well rarely, did I carry a gun or badge off duty. I always wanted to live and let live. When I see and hear a pack of rolling thunder scream by me at 85-90 mph on the freeway, I don’t get mad. My cop instinct does not kick in. In many ways, I’m envious of the freedom in that. I’m embarrassed by LE’s who put on some weekend cuts and try to do the same thing or go to Sturgis and get into it with a legitimate 1% club.

    I think what’s off-putting about 1%’ers to most civilians, is that just like cops, 1%’ers are all stereotyped as thugs and assholes. “Inquiring minds” believe all the hype and bullshit they’re fed about cops and 1%’ers. We know, I know, it ain’t so.

    My own philosophy about work and my dealings at work, is that I would always treat you with absolute respect unless YOU dictated otherwise. Reason being, I wanted to be a good mentor to some of the dumbass youngsters coming up – maybe save em an ass-kicking and some embarrassment out in the street. I always hoped if my mother, father, siblings, kids or anyone else I knew and cared about had dealings with the police, they were afforded the same respect I tried to give. It was a Karma thing for me. I wanted to go home and be able to close my eyes, knowing I did the right thing rather than doing what I thought someone else thought I should do. I really feel that many of the peole I worked with approached the job with the same attitude.

    Anyway, I just wanted to offer another perspective. Thanks for the forum.

  644. Leftist Says:

    I just happened across this site and I was amazed at the conversation taking place. I am from Cleveland and I know about MC’s period. I know the HA CC Zulu Afro Dogs Omens etc… I ride a street bike. Cleveland style bike. Always have. When I got my first Rick Case Kawasaki. My mother called it a Kawaski. Being all the pollacks in Cleveland, she thought i had bought a Polish bike. I know all kinds of people in this and that club etc. Cleveland is a Biker town period. We don’t even wear helmets. Regardless of ethnicity. But the reason i had to comment on this IO thing is because of this. If they are your friend they are your friend. If the aren’t they aren’t. If i’m in a club and some dude walks in with another color well, as long as they aren’t enemies, and there isn’t a beef, so be it. I would’nt necessisarily buy a drink but i would not pick with him, but that’s just me. I know others that live for that shit. So be it. But my thought is this. When I first saw this IO thing my first thought was that it was some kind of LE thing. After all this confused posting I am sure it is. They won’t work in Cleveland cause it’s hard here. But if they do show up so be it. That’s their business and not mine. I don’t know the dynamics that occurred between the HA and that IO at that bar but that is just life and things happen. We are all individuals despite our associations and or alignments. I personally don’t like cops at all. I personally don’t associate with cops and I don’s know anyone in my circles that do. I do believe that this IO thing is not an enigma, I think it is setup by a powerful group that has an agenda. I do believe that it is best to mind your own crews business and don’t mess in the bushes. That’s my thoughts anyway. BTW I’m 56 so I really do know things!

    Later Daze


  645. Leftist Says:

    I just had to add this. I remember back in the early 70’s in high school we had a MC called Hells Bagels (it was a Jewish crew).


  646. Pig Says:

    I know everyone hates guys like me on this site. I will not defend any law enforcement actions I am not directly involved with. I have been reading this site for a few years and have learned a lot. I will not articulate any thoughts on this matter but I just want you to know there are guys who follow the rules that are given to us. Yes, I am a “town clown” police officer in one of the most violent areas in the country. I do my job ethically, tactfully, reasonably sound. Not preaching but there might be some of us out there. I will still read this site to learn that is all. I know most won’t believe that and that is fine. I know my boundaries under the law

  647. Barry Says:

    A point of clarification. The new patch clubs popping up are meeting a market demand. Every where you look in NYS theres these IO type clubs. The joining into one pf these new organizations allows you to ride w/brothers. But these new patch IO type clubs are not 1%. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg. IO for instance, is highly organized as any deep pockets not for profit. It has 3 venues; the reg cruiser IO, the crotch rocket IO and the women’s auxillary. One can’t begrudge any man from riding a bike, hooking up with others and calling them brothers. But they don’t wear that 1% patch. They are just regular folks, riding bikes – trying to imitate the “Lifestyle”. Just cause a man’s a cop doesn’t mean he can’t do the same. One more time, he’s not a 1%. He didn’t earn the small diamond patch that distinguishes the true rebel outlaw biker from the rest of the motorcycle community. Really, these new clubs are just fair weather riders anyway. Soon as it gets 50 or below, raining, snowing they jump in their new Hyundai’s.

  648. Base Says:

    What a thread, been running for months.Hell took me a couple days to read all post..Pretty cool Rebel.


    Law[2] is a system of rules and guidelines which are enforced through social institutions to govern behavior. (Short version)

    The problem?

    Many with in this country are expected to follow the rules “laws” to the letter. And if “we” even think about stepping outside of them we are held accountable. And if we do break or bend one. Oh shit!

    And then there are thoes(LE, local & fed,the rich,politicians & others) they enjoy using the “laws” as guidelines. And it’s open for interpretation! To their advantage & benefit of course.

    Clubs popping up,SOA knock offs etc..
    One of the best descriptions was from a grey beard patch I know, he called them “Shake & Bake clubs. IOMC in 46 states in 8 years? That pretty much sums that up.

    Some of the LEO Clubs & LE’s posting here
    Trust & Respect is earned not just given because you sow on a patch or ride a bike.Fact is, ramped coruption runs through “the largest gang in the world” do the math.Because of your job(carrier choice) not many will trust or respect you within this community.(Note:there will always be suckups & the uninformed willing to join,coddle and caress your ego’s.) But to get respect you’ll have to give it. But reading your (LE’s) post’s above more than a couple of you are real tools!

    But for the majority, in our eyes your part of the problem.

    And now you know how we feel! The “Hubris” or “Comtept”you face here is the same we face everytime we mount our bikes and hit the roads.

    I know, not all cops are bad, not all bikers are bad. Myself always treat everyone as an individual with respect and interact with accord. Giving this some thought, I have had more negative experiences with law dogs than bikers.And if a person wants to wear SOA T-shirts or IO support gear/patches etc… go for it. You reep what you sow.

    Just understand this….

    The 3 pc. Black & White patch belongs to an established MC. for 40 + years.

    Then you come along and just step on that? WTF?

    Ride safe everyone,,,,,

  649. Pig Says:

    @ Pig July 29th, 2012; Hey dumbass. If you had simply read this thread, let alone the site for a few years, you would have known there is already someone using the name “Pig”. I got enough problems on here without these guys thinking you are me. Find your own self deprecating moniker to go by. May I suggest “Town Clown” or simply “Clown”?

  650. Cobra Says:

    Ever hear of a Biker Gang called the: IRON KKK HODS MC? I think they’re from Canada.

  651. Cobra Says:

    Correction–I meant to say the IRON KKK HOGS MC..Sorry about that.

  652. Harpoon (Canada) Says:

    “The Iron kkk Hogs are just an Urban Myth created by a dude who calls himself Aka K. Fabe of Morbid News Inc.”..It’s all crap that he made up 2 or 3 years ago..I think he wanted to make up a Scary Biker Gang name, and the Iron kkk Hogs is what he came up with..Nice try tho! (Well not really!!).

  653. Cobra Says:

    Another question: Does anyone know what ever became of the PILGRIMS MC [Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada, Chapter]? “They” just disappeared, strange, but true. “Such is life in the Biker world!”

  654. Harpoon (Canada) Says:

    Another question: “Does anyone know what ever became of the PILGRIMS MC Saskatoon Chapter [Saskatchewan, Canada]?”–“They” just disappeared, such is life in the Biker world, be my guess. Any feedback?

  655. BigV Says:

    Per Saskatoon Hawg 1%er, aka Saskatoon Jimmy 1%er who requested attribution:

    The only Pilgrims I’m aware of were a chapter of the Scandanavian MC. They had 4-6 guys and they were not 1%ers, they were just motorcycle enthusiasts. I do not think they had authorization from TPTB in Canada to start up. Between that, the language and distrances, I don’t think it was an ideal situation for success. I last saw them… years ago.

  656. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to “cobra” ….
    “Ever hear of a Biker Gang called”….. you must be a cop or just uneducated? I don’t know of anyone who is in a “BIKER GANG”. The (MC) stands for Motorcycle Club.

  657. Cobra Says:

    To:(btb) I ain’t no stinkin’ cop-I did 18 yrs in the big house (26) ago. I stand corrected “Club” not “Gang”..But when I was in the Pen the word Gang was used (with respect) towards Bikers shakin’ time.

  658. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Cobra…
    I too have done my share of time. FYI … Different rules out here. We fight hard to defend against the “Gang” title. That title brings sentencing enhancements.

  659. Cobra Says:

    To: (btb)–I hear ya. “From now on I’ll only refer to the MC rule.” I got far too much respect for the Bikers I shook time with during that 18 yr bit. You and I both know Respect is a big deal on the inside and on the outside. I send you my Respect (btb).

  660. BadMagic Says:

    I’ve heard of 2 bona fied “Gang” ‘s. Seen one (printed on jacket (non-leather)).

    Gold Wing Gang (not kidding)

    and Apple Dumpling Gang….

    And although I agree that one comes with enhancements, I think the biggest problem is it is a profiling justification on the cops part. It is what they use to scare the sheeple. It is used to slander and promote guilt before innocence. It is flat out prejudice. Ever hear of the internal police propaganda “Biker 101″? It is training material in how to harass and discriminate against bikers.


  661. BigV Says:

    Ah, Biker 101:

    The LA Sheriff’s have the Biker 101 Powerpoint on the web, complete with with pictures of multiple bikes that happen to have shotguns in their clutch grip. Of course, the pictures just happen to be random shit off of Google Picture search.

  662. BadMagic Says:

    Here are links to the story:


  663. Red&Gold Says:

    The “Biker Basics 101″ was a training booklet used by the Washington state patrol…It was so derogatory (The opening statement : “Bikers are Dangerous”) that it was enjoined by Washington courts and the WSP was ordered not to use it in, I think 2001 or 2002…I searched for a copy on google but could not find one anymore…If you want to spend the time to hunt it up it is “Biker Basics 101″ …very interesting to see inside the mind of what LE thinks of us…the shit they trained cops to think about us was so gestapo…. The use of this booklet had a fair amount to do with the passing of Washington state “anti-Motorcycle profiling bill” becoming law…

  664. ghost Says:


    great web link, really enjoyed all the old school pics, those were the days!!!

  665. Red&Gold Says:

    @ ghost…

    Thanks for the kind words… the kudos go to my Brothers who built the site …glad you enjoyed it!

  666. Base Says:

    Found this site searching MC’s little bit of everything

  667. Samurai Says:

    I have checked out alot of pages on the IO and asked much the same question and most of the time i don’t get any responses on it. Most people will say the IO is a cop club because if you let one cop in you are automatically a cop club. If you use that same logic, then any club that let’s in one criminal is a criminal organization. But most clubs will fight quite hard against being labeled as any type of criminal organization. Usually you will hear them say that ” We not a criminal organization, we are a club who just happens to have criminals in it” So why can’t it be the same way for the IO and other such clubs, “NOt cop clubs, just clubs who happen to have some cops in them?
    I’m not IO, I’m not a cop. Although most people accuse me of such, doesn’t make it true. I’m just an honestly curious person and hoping for a decent response. I decided to try this site this time because most of the time the commentors on this page know what respect means and typically have well thought out answers and can hold up a convo without degrading to insults if things don’t go their way

  668. Grumbler Says:

    @Red&Gold – Biker Basics 101 isn’t, as you noticed, available online anywhere, but I was able to obtain the MS Word version of that 5-page manual as a court document from a friend in a MRO. Have converted it into a more user friendly PDF file. Perhaps Rebel could publish it.

  669. Red&Gold Says:

    @ Grumbler…That would be kewl! I’d like to see it again and am in favor of it being available on the inter-webs again as an (bad) example..I looked all over for it on the internet and, you are very correct…it has been removed everywhere it use to be, and was impossible for me to find…It is VERY interesting as you know, and an insight as to what cops are taught about bikers/clubbers…The Washington State Police, who were told to stop using it by the courts over ten years ago, admitted that some of their officers still use it (illegally) as recently as a year or 2 ago…

    @ Rebel…so what do you think? Is there somewhere you could put that document???

  670. Sieg Says:


    “Usually you will hear them say that ” We not a criminal organization, we are a club who just happens to have criminals in it” So why can’t it be the same way for the IO and other such clubs, “NOt cop clubs, just clubs who happen to have some cops in them?”

    The main dif there is that if you hang with a Patch that has, say, a felon or two in it, you know you won’t end-up in the GrayBar behind one of them rattin’ ya off, and if the shit hits the fan, they’ll be standing behind you.

    If you hang with a club with pigs in it, sooner or later you WILL get handed-over for something, whether you did it or not, and if the shit hits the fan, insteada stnading up and acting like men, they’ll be waving badges and dialing 911.


    White Man Wake Up!

  671. BadMagic Says:


    As far as I am concerned, a cop club is a club that calls cops.
    Either “Bro” or by 911.

    Everyone is a criminal!

    The following is a quote from

    Incredibly, Congress has been creating on average 55 new “crimes” per year, bringing the total number of federal crimes on the books to more than 5,000, with as many as 300,000 regulatory crimes. As journalist Radley Balko reports, “that doesn’t include federal regulations, which are increasingly being enforced with criminal, not administrative, penalties. It also doesn’t include the increasing leeway with which prosecutors can enforce broadly written federal conspiracy, racketeering, and money laundering laws. And this is before we even get to the states’ criminal codes.”

    In such a society, we are all petty criminals, guilty of violating some minor law. In fact, Boston lawyer Harvey Silvergate, author of Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent, estimates that the average American now unknowingly commits three felonies a day, thanks to an overabundance of vague laws that render otherwise innocent activity illegal and an inclination on the part of prosecutors to reject the idea that there can’t be a crime without criminal intent. Consequently, we now find ourselves operating in a strange new world where small farmers who dare to make unpasteurized goat cheese and share it with members of their community are finding their farms raided, while home gardeners face jail time for daring to cultivate their own varieties of orchids without having completed sufficient paperwork.

    This frightening state of affairs—where a person can actually be arrested and incarcerated for the most innocent and inane activities, including feeding a whale and collecting rainwater on their own property (these are actual cases in the courts right now)—is due to what law scholars refer to as overcriminalization, or the overt proliferation of criminal laws. “Such laws,” notes journalist George Will, “which enable government zealots to accuse almost anyone of committing three felonies in a day, do not just enable government misconduct, they incite prosecutors to intimidate decent people who never had culpable intentions. And to inflict punishments without crimes.”


  672. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Samurai….

    It’s a cop club that allows others into their club. Defend them anyway you want. It still won’t change the fact of what they are. If it makes you feel safe or part of something by joining them, then do so. It’s a free country. If you do join them, don’t expect many of us in other clubs to acknowledge you. We aren’t comfortable with there types.

    …”We are veterans… cops, feds”…..

    Hope you have a great day.

  673. (btb) back to basics Says:

    correction in spelling

    to Samurai….

    We aren’t comfortable with (their) types.

  674. Samurai Says:

    to BTB….

    With all due respect, I’m not defending them per se. I’m simply questioning the logic most commonly used to make the claim they are a cop club. It boils down to this, I don’t think it’s a fair representation of any group to judge all members by the actions or lifestyles of anything less than a simple majority. If i was to say that all Catholics are pedophiles because of the actions some of their priests, there would be quite a few people who would take an issue with such a claim. I know that to be an LEMC typically you have to have 90% leo’s. I would say that any club with more than 51% leo’s would qualify but that’s just me.
    As the saying goes “I have no dog in this fight.” I’m just fascinated by this discussion in general. I don’t seek to start an argument. If you’re not comfortable with their type I don’t seek to try to change that either.
    I don’t call any club a gang and not just because I like my teeth in my mouth and not in my digestive tract. As before i just don’t care to judge any group of any sort by by certain members actions.

  675. Sieg Says:

    There is no “percentage” that makes a club cop-oriented.

    Look at it this way. You’re out for a ride, you stop at a bar, someone jacks you, and you smoke him.

    No one there knows you, you slide clean, no heat, it’s all good.

    Except that your “club brother” is a cop. A sworn officer of the court, who has sworn an oath to uphold the laws of the occupation. You want to guess which side he’s gonnna be on? I already know.

  676. nzIceberg Says:

    I must say I find it a little bit amusing that Sieg seems to think if your in a patch club with felons you won’t get ratted out because it would appear from many of the articles on this site that most are put away after being narked on,regardless of what club they come from.
    No offence intended but Rats wear many different disguise’s

  677. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Samurai…

    I repeat….If it makes you feel safe or part of something by joining them, then do so. It’s a free country. If you do join them, don’t expect many of us in other clubs to acknowledge you. We aren’t comfortable with there types.

  678. Samurai Says:

    to Sieg and BTB….

    First off I wanted to thank both of you gentlemen, you’re responses have been respectful and it’s not something I normally run across
    As far as the 90% claim on LEMC’s that is the number I had heard on several occasions,at least as far as to have the actual LE cube, but how that is enforced I will admit I have no idea.
    This will be my last post, as i stated before I don’t seek to change anyone’s opinion, it was simply to satisfy my own curiousity.

  679. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Samurai….

    Do not live your life by others opinions (except your wife and family’s). There are many different types of clubs to chose from. You decide where you fit in best and pursue that path. It doesn’t matter which path you do chose, you will not be accepted by some for the choice you make and targeted by others.

  680. Samurai Says:

    to BTB….

    Ok, one more post. I thank you for your advice and you’re very correct. There is no such thing as universal acceptance in, well, anything. Especially in the MC world and anyone who thinks there is, is at best a fool. I know that joining any MC will cause some type of problem, and am well aware that some MC’s will come with more problems then others such as the IO or clubs of the same style, especially any of the IO offshoots. I appreciate your concern, truthfully I don’t believe i will be pursuing any entry into any clubs. I had considered it for a while, and the Io had been high on the list but I have since decided that staying out of that club or any club is the best choice for me.
    Like i said, I only asked what I did out of curiousity of the logic used to call them a cop club, any time I have asked before people usually were just assholes and idiots. Once again, thank you for your time and the respect inherent in your posts.

  681. JIM666 Says:

    @ Samurai you said “I have since decided that staying out of that club or any club is the best choice for me.”
    that just may be a wise decision as this life aint for everybody,
    It demands a hell of alot from you, It also gives alot back, like most things you get what you put in
    at any rate if you do ever decide to patch into a club Id recomend a club that is respected by other respectable clubs.

  682. WideGlide Says:

    To Samurai:

    You’re exactly right in your analogy that if one cop in an IO chapter makes them a cop club, then one felon in another club makes them all criminals.

    But, you’re expecting some kind of fairness that just isn’t used in the outlaw world, OR the law enforcement world.

    LEO’s will always assume that a biker with a patch on his back is a criminal. They might be fairly cool at times, but once you put a patch on, the benefit of the doubt goes out the window.

    Outlaw bikers will always look at cops as the enemy, whether they are an outlaw or not.

    Arab’s and Israelis. Cowboys and Indians. Cops and bikers.

  683. Sieg Says:

    “nzIceberg Says:
    August 9th, 2012 at 5:01 pm
    I must say I find it a little bit amusing that Sieg seems to think if your in a patch club with felons you won’t get ratted out because it would appear from many of the articles on this site that most are put away after being narked on,regardless of what club they come from.
    No offence intended but Rats wear many different disguise’s”

    True enough, but you miss the point. In one club, you MAY have a rat that will give you up. In the LE group, you have an entire collection of scum that has sworn an oath to give you up. Note the distinction?

    Now, I know all about getting ratted out, I’m fighting Fed indictments right now, but I sure as hell would never put myself in a situation where the people I hang with are employees of the Criminal Occupation State that wants me in the GrayBar.

  684. JIM666 Says:

    Good luck Sieg,

  685. Grumbler Says:

    @Red&Gold – I’ll upload the Biker Basics 101 PDF file of ~384K on a fuzz website this coming Sunday in the late afternoon. Will post the link after it’s up.

    Am with you in that it’s an interesting insight as to what the cops are taught about bikers/clubbers. It’s almost comical. Am sure they’re well aware of the fact that we don’t particularly like authority figures.

    Still, that doesn’t give them the right to single us out, and treat us with contempt or haughtily simply because they’ve been brainwashed into thinking that we’re the dregs of society.


  686. Caretaker Says:

    Can’t wait to read that… “dregs of society”… Thought that was the a.t.f.


  687. Samurai Says:

    Ok, so I may have lied on accident lol. Originally I had intended on not posting on this site anymore, but that was before I had checked out more of the site. This site is more comprehensive then I thought and the contributors far more knowledgable than I had expected. No offense to anyone on here with that last one, just most sites dedicated to info on biker lifestyle are infested with guys who haven’t gotten any closer to riding a motorcycle then sitting on their friends bike and then jacking off afterwards. This site is clearly different then those and it’s a relief really.
    So I will probably post if the mood strikes me. Just to be fair,I realize that not everyone will agree with everything I have to say but if you keep it cool so will I. If you don’t want to keep it cool, i can give it back just as well as the rest. I believe in respect so hopefully it doesn’t come down to that.
    I’m not a cop and I have been fucked with many a time by the assholes in blue, I don’t have the hatred for them that many do. I don’t believe in judging any group based on the actions on a few individuals. Other than politicians, fuck ALL of them assholes.
    Other than that much L&R to everyone and unfortunately you’ll probably be seeing more of me than some will like lol

  688. Tooj Says:

    Dear Samurai,

    I’m not going to reply with touchy feely “this is what you should do” bullshit. I could care fucking less if you ever post again, you don’t matter to me. You’re reading way too much into folks responding to you.

    I question those of you who answered this jackwagon. It seems the common comment iz “I’m not a cop so don’t fuck with me.” Yeh, riiiight. The shit you ask is easily found in a Google search.

    Samurai, you make my ass tired just seeing your posts. thanks for setting up the ground rules about your posts and how everyone should react. Especially the shit part. This reeks of cop and control. You’re extremely lucky that a lot of folks tried to school you on shit I wager you already know.

    “Lied on accident”? I call it “testing the waters”.

  689. RLG Says:

    This is weird:

    “Wall Bangers and it is popular with Hells Angels and friends of that club”
    “Witnesses in the bar fingered Sosebee and Hill to police.”

    Friends talked to police? Or were they the friends of the Iron Order?

  690. Samurai Says:


    I never said not to fuck with me because i’m not a cop. That stems from most sites automatically claiming you’re a cop if you don’t scream “fuck the police” every couple of posts. I’m simply learning more about this site and it’s not what i thought it was going to be. I didn’t bother to read much of the site and the posts until after making my first post. I hadn’t planned on posting anything else at all on here, then i changed my mind, simple as that. You can think anything you want and i personally don’t give a shit. Everyone talks about respect but then you pop off and start disrespecting people at damn near the first chance.
    If you read my posts, I never asked for info on the IO or for suggestions on joining them. I asked about a line of logic some people were using. If i was going to “test the waters” i would have used a different name and then changed shit up. I could have used different names, email addresses or proxy servers but I didn’t. So go ahead and say whatever you want, if i start to give a shit you’ll be the first one to know

  691. Bill Says:

    This post is like some kind of lightening rod for cops and their cheerleaders. Something about having the IO mirror held up to them makes them squirm and babble. Those claiming not to be cops give themselves away by their flabby rhetoric, all tough and offended that their “independence” is called into question. Only a cop or a supporter would even start this kind of (internet) fight on this post, all the while just asking polite questions of would-be brothers, like a good cop would, of course.

  692. Samurai Says:

    Oh Christ. I haven’t tried to start any fight or anything, i just tried to be respectful on a question I had. I received respectful responses on that question. Past that I haven’t done shit

  693. Caretaker Says:

    Relax,man. I think he’s a newb,so far

    Hey now I started posting the same way


    You show respect you’ll get respect. You act like a dick you’ll be treated as such. Be patient and choose your words carefully.

    Respects to those that earned it
    (you know who you are)
    Caretaker 1%er

  694. Samurai Says:

    @ Caretaker

    You are right and I apologize to all, I reread my post from earlier and I did not watch my posting as well as I should have. I’m so used to dealing with keyboard commando’s on any subject that i jumped the gun. I need to remember that AG is a much different site than others I have visited. Thank you for the advice and second chance.


    My apologies.

  695. (btb) back to basics Says:

    To all the cops monitoring these posts or the defenders of the badge, let me shed some light on the truth.

    This has become the norm in the United States…. Law enforcement officers hide behind their badge while participating in criminal activity. On a daily basis, these individuals violate citizen’s civil and constitutional rights. They have been given more latitude to cause death, physical, financial and emotional harm to U.S. citizens than any other organization. Their actions are overlooked, encouraged and rewarded by their department(s) leadership. Lies and justification are all they know. And they want me to cower or show respect? FUCK NO and FUCK THEM. I didn’t take an oath to abide by the laws and uphold the constitution. They did. Ironically, I live a more law abiding life than they do, yet, I’m labeled the criminal.

    Here’s a fact…
    America’s #1 Terrorist Threat is Law Enforcement

  696. DesertH-D Says:

    Caretaker: I don’t post a lot, but I’ve seen many of yours. Respects to you.

    There are several others posting on this thread worthy of respect. To you all as well… (You’ll know who you are.)

    Samurai: You have had a golden opportunity here buddy… Honest lessons from some experienced and wise men. Lose the keyboard commando thoughts and take these guy’s posts to heart. You might not be aware of their bona fides, but some of us are. Your last post indicates you might be starting to get it… Keep on that path.

  697. Samurai Says:


    It was because of the opportunity i did notice after saying i was no longer going to post that i changed my mind and decided to stick around. My posting letting everyone know i was sticking around was not the brightest move i have ever made, it would have been simpler to just continue posting and then answered why if anyone bothered to notice, I wouldn’t have ended up looking like such an idiot (hopefully at least). So to Caretaker, DesertH-D, and the others who have given me their honest and respectful opinions, I thank you. and to Tooj, I hope you can forgive me for letting my keyboard work faster than my brain.

  698. DesertH-D Says:

    Well Samurai… Looks a bit more like you’re starting to get it. For now, good on ya. Just remember this: IRL is different than sitting in front of a keyboard. Come around the “real world”, you should have the right kind of attitude from the beginning. There’s no “backspace” in the real world. Some guys will be happy to educate you in real time. Get it??? Just lettin’ ya know…

  699. Tooj Says:

    Caretaker, cooler heads prevail. OK, I get it. I’ll try to behave.

    Dear Samurai,

    I’ll give you a suggestion for navigating cyber space in regard to Blogs and WordPress sites. You’ll always do better to read for a while, “lurk” if you will, before you begin to say things like, “Doesn’t one criminal make the entire club criminal?” I completely understood the simplistic parallel you attempted, but life is never that simple.

    Had you taken time to read and see what this is all about, I doubt that would have been your commment. The cops posting on here work the same way. They aren’t interested in the content, per se, but look for ways to continue to screw with people. Desert H-D gave the best advice you’ll ever hear if you’re interested in clubs of any sort.

    AND, there’s a lovely thing that happens here. You will always see some cop pop on here and start garbage when the topic hits close to home. They only become interested in highly disrespectful commentary and seek to create discord where there was none.

  700. Austin Says:

    “Anyway in my opinion the core problem with police work is that its foundation is wholly built on a particularly cruel form of deception”

    But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that’s the system, Mr. Reardon, that’s the game, and once you understand it, you’ll be much easier to deal with.”

    –Ayn Rand (‘Atlas Shrugged’ 1957)

    and @Junior;
    -Biggest gang in the world

    ……..and that IS the game. Everyone needs to keep their head in it. If you aren’t familiar with Prisoners Dilemma (I wasn’t until I read another thread & researched it) read about it. Non-leo people need to look out for each other.

    Looking forward to the Biker Basics 101 PDF file

    @ Rebel – as always, I remain indebted.

  701. Grumbler Says:

    @Red&Gold/Caretaker/Austin – Have uploaded the 368Kb PDF file. A text version is available online from Abate Local 27 (google: abate + bikers basic 101).

    The training material Bikers Basic 101 was a tool created by a Trooper DePretto:

    While Washington State courts did place an injunction against its use, the training was already ingrained in the pupils. There is nothing to indicate that the WSP has changed their training methods. What is apparent is that the methods are still in use by many of the Troopers. Trooper Piggot and Trooper Boardman have repeatedly shown that they are students of the Master.

    One key component of Bikers Basic 101 is IDENTIFY THE VIOLATION:
    1. Helmet
    2. Exhaust
    3. Handlebars

    Even in the face of Judicial reprimand, these same 3 violations are the most sought after infractions to detain motorcyclists.


  702. Phuquehed Says:

    Thanks for finding that for us, Grumbler.

    That piece of shit read just proves I’m right when I say there isn’t a pig who can think outside the box and as a person and not like a fucking useless pig. I’d bet my bike that if that 5 page asswipe material were to get into any pigs hands who asked for it, it’d be taken to heart without a second thought to question a fucking thing on it.

    Meh, fuck ‘em all and hope the really bad ones all die of something painful and lasts three days- the sooner the better.

  703. Red&Gold Says:

    Grumbler…Thanks for digging that up…

  704. PigPen Says:

    That was a great file to read over. and don’t forget, “they mean business”

    hahahah fucking pork chops.

  705. Wretched man Says:

    Huge thanks & respect to Rebel, RVN69, Red&Gold, Glen S
    I am from South Africa & stumbled across this post & abovementioned folk (plus others) really are worth listening to.
    Sadly, some folk have a really skewed perception of reality & there really is no “pill” for stupidity….
    On this continent there is (sadly) almost no respect at all, from civillians or “bikers”.
    Until as recently as 20 years ago our “traffic cops” would harras bikers, our “law” discriminated against certain race groups & often bikers were treated as scum, but better than afore-mentioned race groups.
    We, in South Africa, have compaitively little to complain about after reading the posts on this site.
    Having said that I would like to state that I have witnessed the collapse of order in our country which has spilled into biking. We have Biking Councils (similar to COC) & I’ve often seen “individuals” attempt to hi-jack these coucils (sometimes succeed too) so that they can “control/manipulate” biking in our country (we want freedom just like our Brothers in USA). A definite lack of respect is the root of just about every single problem I’ve encountered, from “posers” to blissfully ignorant & as far reaching as the blatantly self opinionated that trample on others without any remorse. Some refuse to even participate in Biking Councils, all rooted in a “lack of respect”.
    Most LEO & civillians here cant tell the difference between “tupperware bikers” “weekend warriors” & real bikers (apparently a minority here).
    Huge respect for everyday bikers.
    Looking forward to riding in your fine country in 2 weeks time, thanks for the heads up on LEO & other “Alphabet Gangs”.

    DISCLAIMER: please excuse me if by omission (or even plain ignorance/stupidity) I have showed a lack of respect to anyone deserving of it.
    Thanks again to all intelligent contributors, HUGE RESPECT to those who’ve paved the way

  706. Arctic Says:

    Holy Key-ryst this thread is still going strong!

  707. (btb) back to basics Says:

    to Grumbler ….

    I can simplify their logic….

    One key component of Bikers Basic 101 is IDENTIFY THE VIOLATION:
    1. Motorcycle

  708. Sieg Says:

    Any free Man is in violation of one or another of the Madarin’s Dictates, just ask the Amerikan Terror Force.

    Or ask yourself why the U.S. Army has promulgated Doctrine and is training-up to “suppress internal strife” in 2016, with the scenario being a Tea Party-led uprising in N.C.

    You don’t suppose the Mandarins that set the Post-Turtle-in-Chief up on his post would try to hijack this wonderful, “free” country, do you???

  709. whitefxrp Says:

    So, about a month or so of looking at the IO website and seeing them state they have a chapter in my country, a very small country by some standards,I personally have had no sightings of them,today however,whilst talking to to the Pres of one of the prominent clubs in my country,he tells me that an IO member from the US, whilst on work placement,sets up a IO chapter in a city which is inbetween Charter and Chapter.This is quickly dealt with,and whilst said US citizen is still in the local,no patches are flown.Then all of a sudden,the IO patch is seen flying in another location,and dealt with again by the dominant.All quite for a week or so,then the brother (as in same father) of a local very respected prominent club member starts to wear the IO patch,his (blood ) brother says,WHOA,take that shit off,or be prepared to have it taken off,his reply is, “Dont’t be fuckin with us,we got cops in our team” to which, he gave him a smack and took that patch off him

  710. WARTHOG Says:

    The IO in Illinois are being “patched over” to a new club called Demon Seed. From their website:

    Welcome to the Demon Seed Motorcycle Club

    We allow our chapters to operate themself and handle their issues locally.

    We don’t do illegal activities and we support the communities we live in!

    We don’t ask permission from other clubs because this is the United States and no where does it say we ask permission. Your friends and family in the Military are dying for these rights everyday!

    We don’t have world secrets, so you have a question, feel free to ask.
    You can listen to Bullshit Rumors, or you can come find out for yourself.

    These guys are sprouting up all over Illinois. Keep an eye out because they are probably coming to a town near you.



  711. Sieg Says:

    The Demon Seed stuff I’ve seen online is pretty funny. I’m sure they’ll find Illinois a friendly, warm, hospitable place to set-up shop.

    I notice they are welcoming their newest chapter…with a CALIFORNIA bottom rocker.

    Have fun, boys.


  712. Samurai Says:

    The Demon Seed is a joke. They are a split off group from the IO who will take any ex io members in a heartbeat. I heard of them when researching the io and for kicks i contacted their site. I claimed to be an ex io member who got kicked out and wanted to join. I was contacted almost immediately by someone named Backup, who told me that for the low low price of 500 dollars i could start my own chapter and get a nomad patch until i had enough members for a full chapter. No probating, no back ground check, nothing. I was given a paypal address and told that once they received my money i would have a full set of patches within a month,including their fancy new SS lightning bolts they had just added to their vests. I just laughed when i read that, a lil while later i received an email stating they were suspending their new chapter start up but they would contact me at a later date if i was still interested lol.

  713. Sieg Says:

    Well, at least these new cut-offs will look snappy hanging upside down…

  714. justme615 Says:

    Just sitting here this morning reading through this, alot of information about the IO. Well they have a chapter here in my little Tn. town, at least according to their site. I personally have never saw any of them of the roads, streets. Looking at their pictures, they even have a clubhouse, I recognize the area. Sad thing is yes, they all look like boys in blue or like they would be. I ride my little 250, it is cheap transportation. The bad thing is it seems even in this area and my ride to work, I get harassed by the LE. I think it is funny that they bother me at times, but it is kinda crazy. To the guys that have earned their patches, keep up the tradition, I was brought up you were the bad guys, of course then I grew up and found out otherwise.

  715. justme615 Says:

    @ Grumbler
    Just read the link document you posted, interesting and kinda funny to read. Evidently this has been passed on to the boys in blue here in Tn. Everyone be safe out there.

  716. Earl Cowley Says:

    I’m the founder & president of the Gold Wing Gang of Saskatoon, Sk, Canada. We are misfits in the eyes of the World. We are outcasts from Society. We are Earth’s Lonewolves. We are not: Goofs; Rats; Skinners, or NFG Punks. We do the crime we do the time. We don’t “mess with”-no one or anybody. We live and let live. Peace & Take Care–the Gold Wing Gang [Canada].

  717. Earl Cowley Says:

    I’ve beeb punk’d. I’m no gang leader. I’m a senior citizen for crying out loud! I thiink my grandson may be behind this (the little bugger). I looked into this. The Gold Wing Gang is just a bunch of guys who ride Gold Wing Honda’s. ‘jap-crap’ as most on this website would call them.

  718. JED Says:

    @Earlcrowley LMAO…. That’s too funny. Better keep an eye on that little shit!

  719. ghost Says:

    i also had a good laugh at the earl cowley posts “gold wing gang” thats rich!!!

  720. Snarky Says:

    we are outlaws!! who make sure to follow the rules… it is funny as hell. Here is the thing. You cant tell me what i can wear. I served in the military, i put it on the line for this FREE country for 8 years. I have some very good friends in IO, decent enough guys. thats all that matters to me.

  721. Wild Rover Says:

    … once again someone tries the ol’ “ha ha, you say you’re an outlaw but you have so many rules to follow to be an MC” … OUT law means: ‘not YOUR law’ and besides, NOBODY joins any organization for ‘freedom’.. whether it’s a Motorcycle Club, a Yacht Club or a Quilting Club. You join an organization because you want stability. Because you’re looking for a structure shared with like minded people, because you want to be part of something greater than yourself. A military guy should recognize that. And before someone wants to question how I know what a military guy should recognize … I am recently ex-military after 14 years of service.

  722. Mort Says:

    You join an organization because you want stability. Because you’re looking for a structure shared with like minded people, because you want to be part of something greater than yourself. This was and still is the case for many of us who made it back,
    As a 20 yr. Vet’s @ age 56, I do not easily fit in with todays society, I bow down to no one, for me it will always be about respect! give and you will get back, Love and you will be loved back, not always in my case. I too thought about “IRON ORDER” because i ride a rice shredder, not your normal grinder, non the less, but did not want the grief and the glaring from others over the wearing the 3 pc patch, I get that already just from walking into any room with people around! ( LOL )

    I am for all bikes and all trikes! In Ore-gun the group I.O does have some LEO’S, not many…. most have dropped out because of all the retoric B.S. although they are replaced with alot of Iraq and Afghanistan “American Soldiers” coming back home. Mongols are moving in by increasing numbers! so are other M/C’S….Free Souls are not happy about it, pop corn is popp’in and were sittin back watch’in.

  723. Cap'n Bill Says:

    Now, how ’bout the Defiant Crew MC…?

    Yes, stirring the pot some more…

  724. Lukyll Says:

    Im a nobody that just upgraded his scooter for a harley. Was looking for a local riding club and came across this post. It seems to me the clubs that earned respect are known, like the difference between panasonic and pan-o-sonic….. with that brand comes history. Far be it from me to have a solution, but it would seem, if the goal of the coc is fighting the bad image….. the “posers” would be welcome to take the edges off perception, perhaps not hang out with. its not like everyone who knows doesnt know, including them….. i have experience with other types (non motorcycle) of clubs, the fuck ups there tend to take themselves out soon enough….. good luck guys.

  725. pervert Says:

    My eyes, My eyes…”Rebel I think that is from Hamlet”. I can’t believe this has gone on for so long without a solution.
    If you want a non 1% motorbike club, look at the Boozefighter’s MC.
    Just a drinking club with a motorcycle problem. Family first, club second and respected by most 1% clubs. If you’re not leaning towards a club, just ride with some trusted friends or by yourself and have a good time.

  726. U-Turn Says:

    Wow! What a cool site! I stumbled across it looking for something else, and am pretty impressed. I’ve seen some great comments from both sides of the fence. Just to introduce myself, I’m a law enforcement officer of about 16 years. Prior to that, I did 5 years of military service in the Army. I’m not from one of those “cop dynasty” families. The last known cop in my family was back in 1906, and he had actually beat a murder rap for shooting a deputy during a card game before he took his oath. Anyway, I thought I’d weigh in on this whole LE/Outlaw MC issue. First I’ll speak in defense of the 1%ers. You guys developed your own culture, and designed the 3-piece set up as a means of designating yourselves. You came up with a strict set of protocols and made it mean something to earn those patches. So, for you to get upset when the anti-thesis of your culture moves in and copies your style, while ignoring the protocols you established, makes perfect sense. I get it. In defense of the LE clubs, I’d like to explain a few perspectives. Most in the 1% community feel like those patches aren’t earned. LE has a different take on that. Nearly all of the cops I know who belong to an MC are also military veterans. Like me, they chose to follow the path of law enforcement after their ETS. After all the bs they went through in the military, and then the academy, and then working the street with each other, fighting back to back, kicking in doors knowing armed people are likely on the other side of it, makes them feel just as strong about their brotherhood as you feel about yours. Just like any other biker that joins a club, they feel drawn to that bike just like anyone else. Of course, they can’t join a 1% club, because they’re LE. They aren’t content with a HOG chapter, because that’s fuckin’ boring! They like to drink and party it up and ride and bring strippers into their clubhouse, etc. So where do you go when you’re between HOG and Outlaw? Well, you form your own biker society. And thus, LE clubs were born. One big misconception about LE clubs I keep seeing is that they are “quick with the cell phone”, meaning quick to call the police. I can’t speak for all the clubs out there, but I can tell you that generally, the Police Administrations do not look favorably upon the MC lifestyle, especially when their own are involved. Riding with an MC when you’re a cop is a pretty taboo thing. Police administrators see very little difference between a HOG chapter and a 1%er. When my agency found out I was in an MC, I was ordered to go see the shrink and was questioned extensively about my joining a “motorcycle gang”. I f

  727. MortarGuy Says:

    Wow. All these REAL bikers, self proclaimed 1%ers going on and on and on about brotherhood. Really. Then why is it that virtually every major 1% club in North American has had several instances of members turning on each other, chapters turning on each other and on and on and on? I’m talking about shootings and killings and dudes being captured and tortured and more. IN THE SAME FREAKIN CLUB!!! Where’s the ‘brotherhood’ there huh???

    And I’m not talking about snitches, or dudes that might have stolen or violated some protocol. I’m talking about folks who were perceived to be in the way or were a barrier to other dudes making more money etc. And I’m talkin the Outlaws, Red and White…name it.

    Y’all talk about cops not understanding brotherhood. I’m not a cop..I’m retired military and not in any club, but if you think 1%ers are the only ones who truly understand brotherhood you are freakin high and have most likely never taken heavy fire from really skiiled bad guys trying their best to kill you.

    Your ignorant blather sounds more like the RUBS playing bikers on SOA than true Warriors. I understand where you are coming from I really do. Freakin losers with no authority or real respect in the real world so you create ‘rules and protocols’ to try and create a world where you actually count for something. Ok fine. Knock yourself out and go on blathering about brotherhood until some of your own ‘brothers’ shoot you or turn you in to save their own ass. 1% ‘brotherhood’ is only good until somebody else wants to make more money, or collect some reward money or whatever.
    But if you really had any class or G2 you would lay off clubs you know nothing about. Or calling any person or club who doesn’t want to play by YOUR rules a rub or a cop. Grow the f*ck up.

  728. SSJ Says:

    Many on this site are veterans or retired military, your stuff is laughable. If you understand about brotherhood you realize you do not belong here. Why would you want to come here and say all that stuff anyway? Wouldn’t you prefer to be with someone closer to your mind set and values than rant at people you don’t appreciate? I just don’t get it.

  729. Sieg Says:

    Anyone who would exalt “authority” and the respect of those lickspittle who enforce the edicts of the Oligarchs who hide behind the fiction of a “democracy” while engaging in the ethnic-cleansing to hasten the return of the serf is either deluded, woefully uninformed, or an agent of the Regime.

  730. RLG Says:

    @alex, your fevered attempt at psy-ops is obvious.

    Fucking fed trolls….

  731. Phuquehed Says:

    @Mortarguy – Your mommy is calling and telling you to get the fuck off the computer and go eat supper. Moronic punk.

  732. One Eye Says:

    @MortarGuy: Thanks for the dissertation vis-a-vis brotherhood. There is brotherhood in everything: M/Cs, sports teams, unions, the Armed Forces, Masons, etc. The critical importance in ANY brotherhood is the heart of the members in it; the proverbial links in the chain and the strength or the weakness therein. I’m sure there have been “brothers” in the Armed Forces that have fucked their buddy’s wives or ratted or fucked their brother over, so spare me the sanctimonious bullshit. Just out of curiosity, what did you do that renders you a “true Warrior”?

  733. Gunny Says:

    Getting stabbed for not removing your colors is heart and respect there! But before you go running off and tring to form a 3 patch club, you better talk to the main club or clubs in your area! It’s not being a Bitch it’s called respect! the larger club will advise you on what is ok and what is just stupid! Honestly females should never be in a male club. Too much drama! and you’re club will be taken as a joke, a motor cunt, . they can support the club but thats it! But if a member from the soa show did get thumped for wearing his tv outfit that would be kind of funny! remember they are actors! reading a script! I still just love seeing weekend warriors riding in all leather during the summer with a full face helmets on. and for you weekend warriors or club starters go to the other clubs partys to show respect, don’t walk up to a president of a chapter, club and ask him or his board Shit, don’t talk to a full patch unless he speaks to you first. guys with rank in any club don’t want some asshole who’s probly got less then 50K miles under his ass asking him dumb shit.

  734. Crazychris Says:

    In my opinion, it’s all relative. (not that anyone gives a fuck about my opinion) im sure there are situations in the military and three patch clubs where people fuck up, stab each other in the back, etc. that being said, it’s the people in uniform and motorcycle clubs that still live with a fucking sense of what brotherhood,respect,discipline, warrior mentality, and having balls is all about so please don’t blanket a whole culture due to a few fuck ups. Semper Fi!

  735. Jim666 Says:

    Damn ! the comments here are still going ?
    The comment section should be called outlaw or 101,,lol

  736. a22in1503 Says:

    Idiot IO’s got totally punked last Sunday. LMFAO.

  737. Samurai Says:

    I’ll take the bait a22, how did they get punked

  738. Johnny Says:

    Alot of class was shown by the Iron Order mc member. None by the lowlife h.a. This is The USA. Wear what you want to wear. Fuck these old school yard bullies. Their are more of people like me, who think like this than bully club members.

  739. Arctic Says:

    “OI sucks” “Police are crooked pigs” “1%ers are bullys and gangs” Blah blah blah. Don’t you folks have anything better to do than play internet tough guys and or instigating sidewalk commandos?
    Why not just enjoy the Articles (possibly the best Biker related material online) leave some positive feedback, click on the ads then,….oh I dunno, GO FOR A RIDE. Leave the drama for daytime television. I mean I get it. I used to get caught up in this crap. Then I got educated. Deal with shit on the road as it comes up.

  740. Sieg Says:

    Johnny, go fuck yourself.

    Arctic, maybe someday everyone can be as cool as you.

    FTF / FTP

  741. One Eye Says:

    It’s always humorous to read the posts from those who possess balls that rust their shorts when they sweat. I find it very ironic that any class is shown by a cop club who detests bikers while they are at work, however, in the off time they will dress like one, fly a 3 piece patch like them and emulate them in every way up even to the point of garnering derision from other cops. The best part is when shit goes sideways and they pull out the good old fucking trump card. A BADGE. Class? Run along, Johnny.

  742. Pig Says:

    Shut up Johnny. “Ther is morer pee poles like mee then yous guyses.” Ignorant dick.

  743. Arctic Says:

    @ Seig, Thanks buddy.

  744. Jim666 Says:

    @ Seig , U know when you start your Vacation ?
    Im still waiting on my Lawyer to let me know when I have to walk up to the gate.
    Any rate best of luck to you, Maby we can have someone on the outside help us pass kites to each other if ya want ?

    Respects Jim666

    F.T.F. F.T.P. F.T.W.

  745. Sieg Says:

    @Jim, sentencing is set for the second week of February. Still hoping to dodge the bullet, but meantime I’m trying to get my shit in one bag. Don’t know if it’s gonna be an immediate custody thing, but I’m figuring it will be. My road dog is going up the first week of January, so I’m watching that shit close, see if I can get a clue!

    Always good to keep the commo open, Rebel, if you see this, would you do me the solid of passing Jim my e-mail?

    Stay up, my man, it ain’t nothing but time!

    FTF / FTP

  746. Jim666 Says:

    Got that rite, same to you, hope you do dodge that bullet,
    I,ll be going before then waiting to hear from attny.
    Till then i,ll be checking in here,lol, My E-mail is posted in the new “dialogical saloon” in the Letter From Dave Burgess,at the top,


    F.T.P. F.T.F.

  747. Snow Says:

    Seig, Jim666
    Respect guys, wishing yall the best, stay safe. Snow

  748. Jim666 Says:

    @ Snow Thank you.

  749. queenbee Says:

    I’ve been reading comments and as a woman, who is obviously NOT part of the MC world (because I CAN’T be) I have a couple of questions.

    My husband wears an IO patch. This is recent and I may or may not be fully on board. I would like to clarify his perspective and THEN get yours, so please, read on.

    My husband is a vet and served three consecutive combat tours in Iraq.It was the most difficult time in our life together and he missed out on more than you might imagine, lost brothers and came home scarred. He got a bike after he got out of the military and has spent most of his time just riding for pleasure. A couple of years ago he joined an affiliation (non MC, non 3 piece patch and part of COC called The CVMA). He hated it because it did not offer the brother hood he has been searching for since his military days. In fact, nothing has offered the brotherhood he experienced in the middle of war. About a year ago he stumbled upon the IO. He hadn’t been able to find the right club until then and here is why:

    *As a vet, he doesn’t want to spend anymore time answering to others.
    *As a vet, who fought for his and other’s freedoms, he feels he has earned the right to do what he wants.
    *Joining this club for him had nothing to do with a 3 piece patch, in fact, he would be happy without one. BUT it had everything to do with it being non COC. Basically EVERY club, vets clubs included, are part of the COC AND most support another 1% MC. He didn’t want to be a part of another “bitch” club to a 1% club. He didn’t want to feel like he should have to answer to anyones regulations because he already spent a good chunk of his life in the military doing that.

    In all of this, the only thing he has searched for is brother hood. He’s already fought and lost a lot in the name of brother hood and it was ME that made him leave the military behind. So, the search for something similar began. He FINALLY feels like he has found that with the IO. That is what they are about. In this particular chapter there ARE cops, just a few but ALL are veterans looking for the same thing. I can honestly say, my husband is not looking for trouble but I KNOW (despite how I feel about this) He would fight for his patch the way he fought for his country.

    Thank you for taking the time to read this. NOW, I would really like to hear from some MC members out there. With just the facts on the table, ones like what I just mentioned, I would like to know why is this type of brotherhood so offensive? Like I said, I am not necessarily for or against any of the MC stuff. I try to understand both sides. If I had it my way, my husband would just ride his bike without a cut. But, I understand where he and the other vets in his club are coming from (one who was shot 3 different times in Iraq and bears 3 different purple hearts). They feel they already HAVE earned their right to this brotherhood and so many of you above mentioned that they have not. They don’t want to be outlaws, they don’t want to break the law this is why they don’t just join a 1% club.
    If a few of you could help me understand better your opinion, that would be helpful.


  750. Sieg Says:

    @queenbee, I would guess that a large majority of men in clubs have been in combat. That said, what you’re man is about is not unknown.

    As far as the IO, all I can add as far as perspective is the question “is that who he wants on his six?”

    The IO has pigs in it, as you stated. Pigs ALWAYS, 100% of the time, never fails, put themselves first, last, and foremost. I guarantee, if there are cops in his chapter, they are looking down on him and having a laff about having him there to do their dirty work. They damn sure won’t fight for the Patch, unless it’s with a badge and a cellphone.

    If he can’t rely on ‘em, then there is no “brotherhood”, just another bunch of pigs with a few others doing the heavy-work for them.

    As far as what anyone earns, you’re man may well have earned the respect and brotherhood of those men with whom he served. AS I stated above, many, many Patch holders have seen combat. In the AF, no one goes from one unit to another and instantly commands the respect of and brotherhood with longterm members of the outfit…that has to be earned, no matter how many PH’s you have on you blouse.


  751. Paladin Says:

    @ queenbee,

    A lot of people talk the talk. Until your man actually sees his so called “brothers” walk the walk, I’d respectfully suggest he watch his own “six”

    Long May You Ride,


  752. One Eye Says:

    Well Queenbee, I would like to thank your husband for his sacrifice and duty. The main reason, as I see it, that the IO and other LE clubs has drawn do much ire is the flat out hypocrisy on which they are based. I don’t like certain sub cultures, so I don’t try to emulate them. Yet so many of the cops who despise bikers, harass them, and break the laws they swore to uphold to get bikers, seem to find it acceptable to dress up as bikers and play the role on the weekend without any respect for the protocol of flying a patch. When they get called on it they pull out the trump card and the badge is produced and suddenly they’re cops again. Any time there is a problem that actually makes it into a court they’ll receive a slap on the wrist and then a very palpable double standard is revealed. If the same offence was committed by a non-LEO club, especially of a 1%er nature, you’d hear trumped up charges, bold face lies and RICO, RICO, RICO!!!
    Plainly and simply put, it’s duplicity and it’s bullshit. However, to each his own.

  753. WARTHOG Says:


    OK…I’m trying to do deep breathing exercises and telling myself you meant no disrespect and asking a legitimate question out of ignorance.

    First, it is quite offensive to be calling clubs that support other clubs ‘bitch’ clubs. My club is not in the COC because that is led by one major club in Illinois and we are associated with another major club. We only attend different events held by that other major club and don’t answer to them or do any of their ‘dirty work’, if that is what they do. I have no idea because our two clubs are mutually exclusive and we don’t get into their business and they don’t get into ours.

    Most members in my club are veterans and we also have earned the right to join whatever club we choose. The issue I have with the IO is the lack of respect they show to any other MC. They didn’t go through the proper channels to get their bottom rocker and turn their noses up to all the MC’s that did by spouting that shit of “we earned it, fuck you.” I think sieg said it best with, “In the AF, no one goes from one unit to another and instantly commands the respect of and brotherhood with long term members of the outfit…that has to be earned, no matter how many PH’s you have on you blouse.”

    One thing is for sure, LEO’s are not allowed in my club. Main reason: they lie. That’s what they do for a living. If you can’t trust your club brother to always tell the truth, then you have no brotherhood at all. It’s bad enough to be looking over your shoulder at fucking pigs outside of the club, yet alone constantly watching your back inside your club. Not to mention the FOP always precedes the MC. They already have a brotherhood he is barred from entering. He will always be the outsider on the inside.

    My advice…have him do a little more homework and get involved with a more honorable club and earn the patch.




  754. Pig Says:

    queenbee – please pass this on to your ol’ man:

    I am a former Marine (non-combat) and I want to thank you for your service and sacrifice. Welcome back to the land of the big PX. That being said, I think it’s time someone addressed the misplaced sense of entitlement that too many of our returning service members feel; especially where it pertains to the motorcycle community. I hate to break the bad news to you but you will ALWAYS have someone else to answer to, you didn’t “earn the right” to run around and do whatever you want, and no matter what club, group, troupe, organization, fraternity, gang, or syndicate you run with, you will have to answer to their regulations. Frankly, I’m not too sure where you got the idea that you could do all that shit in the MC world anyway. If you had spent any time around these clubs you would know that they are a warrior culture who are highly regulated and answer to a very strict code. What you are describing sounds more like a hippie commune to me.

    In short, nobody owes you anything. And even if they do, you’ll probably never see it without a mountain of paperwork to fill out. You can’t get so much as a Costco card without having to pay for it. Think I’m lying? Try running down and buying a Cop uniform and run around town in it for a while. You’ll see just how long your “I served in combat so I can do anything I want” theory lasts. Or go tell the Shriners that you are a combat vet so you think you have earned the right to wear their fez. Do you realize how arrogant that is? Let’s turn it around. What if a patch holder walked into a military recruiter’s office and wanted to join but felt that because he had been a prospect and earned his patch, he shouldn’t have to go to boot camp or MOS training; he felt he had earned his right to wear that uniform. If they let that guy in, would you think highly of him? Being a veteran, combat or not is not interchangeable with wearing an MC patch. Is it ok for a PH who never served in the military to call himself a veteran just because he believes that by earning his patch, he has also earned the right to do and say what he wants?

    As far as your ol’ lady’s comment about being in a “bitch club”, what an insulting and disrespectful comment! She represents YOU and she just slapped a lot of men in the face on your behalf. Maybe they don’t teach you that in the IO or maybe you just haven’t taught her.

    There is always a pecking order. It’s universal. If you don’t want to be the second head down on the totem pole, then earn your patch with the top dog. If that ain’t for you either, maybe you need to re-think about whether this MC thing is right for you. Frankly, you can have brotherhood without a patch on your back. But you shouldn’t have a patch on your back that you didn’t earn nor should you patch in to a club that didn’t earn its place. And if you do either one of those things, you can expect to be shunned by those who have done it right.

    I don’t mean to make light of your military service and the shit you went through. You have my appreciation and respect. But you have it because I believe in what you did and the sacrifice you made, not because I think I owe you anything. There is a big difference.

  755. Jim666 Says:

    I for one do`nt think you read clearly or at least all if not the answers to your questions prior to asking your questions here, if so there would be no reason to ask these questions,
    Besides all the above mentioned,which I might add is very well said by all above.
    I,ll address one thing you mentioned. which is again answered above your post.

    queenbee Says:
    December 5th, 2012 at 7:43 am

    “They don’t want to be outlaws, they don’t want to break the law this is why they don’t just join a 1% club. ”

    Where are you getting your info ?


    Well here it is again


    In the 1940′s Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs banded together as this 1% that chooses to live our alternative lifestyle, together, on the road, ROAD WARRIORS, outside of the mainstream.



    * We do NOT manufacture drugs
    * We do NOT do contract killing
    * We do NOT steal motorcycles nor do we run chop shops
    * We are NOT extortionists
    * We are NOT rapists
    * We are NOT gun runners
    * We are NOT racists organizations
    * We are NOT involved in human trafficking nor do we condone it


    1%’ers Are NOT Criminals/GANGSTERS and our CLUBS are not gangs!!!

    We in the 1%’er OUTLAW Motorcycle Club Community are fighting to protect our own events, homes, families and CLUB MEMBERS from the gangs and criminals that are trying to infiltrate and dominate our Communities as well.


    We take care of our own problems!

  756. WARTHOG Says:


    Thanks for clarifying something I so poorly stated. I said, ” …or do any of their dirty work’, if that is what they do.” I made it sound like it was possibly criminal dirty work and that was NOT what I intended. My apologies.
    I’ll have to find your email you said was in the dialogical saloon and keep in touch with you while you’re on “vacation”. Always love reading your posts and you have my utmost respect as an honorable man.




  757. Red&Gold Says:

    @ jim666 Your entire comment was well said… I felt the need to add to the following section:

    “…There is always a pecking order. It’s universal. If you don’t want to be the second head down on the totem pole, then earn your patch with the top dog. If that ain’t for you either, maybe you need to re-think about whether this MC thing is right for you. Frankly, you can have brotherhood without a patch on your back. But you shouldn’t have a patch on your back that you didn’t earn nor should you patch in to a club that didn’t earn its place. And if you do either one of those things, you can expect to be shunned by those who have done it right…: True dat!!! AND ANY MADE UP, JOHNNY COME LATELY CLUB (such as io)that refuses to Respect and Honor tradition, WILL ALWAYS BE LOWER…MUCH LOWER…ON THAT TOTEM POLE THEN ANY SUPPORT CLUB, let alone any 1% club.

  758. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    Dear queenbee,

    Everything that could be said has been. Your man isn’t an anomaly in the biker community, as there are many veterans who sought the structure and common ground for brotherhood (including my ol’ man). I actually find myself, perhaps unfairly, questioning your man’s current mindset, if not his maturity level (as a veteran myself I am saying this as an observation, not a put-down). From one ol’ lady to another, if you’d like to continue the discussion from a different perspective, including Respect for Ol’ Ladies 101, Rebel has my permission to provide my email address to you.

  759. stroker Says:

    To Queenbee and others like her:

    I get frustrated reading the same old whine about “I’m a vet, this is America, I can fly any patch I want”. Ok, maybe it’s Queenbee who’s whining…………but queenie……I must ask you, why haven’t you read any of the other posts on this page? Much of what I’m going to say has been said here on many of Rebel’s articles before. I get frustrated, because I’m gonna hafta say again what’s already been said.
    Warthog, JIM666, Reg&Gold, and even Pig said a lotta stuff quite eloquently, and I agree with all of it. Still, I feel compelled to say what’s been said over the years here, yet again.
    Our “culture’ has many traditions, and unspoken rules. You don’t get to learn these traditions by barging into our culture with a “holier-than-thou” or maybe holier-AS-thou, attitude. It takes time, and respect for those that have gone before. You don’t start up a club in MY area, without first checking with me, and other clubs already established here. If you start flying a new patch in this area without paying respect to those who’ve been here, or gone before you, you are not worthy to wear that patch. Period. Simple. We will not put up with upstart clubs, who think they are too-good to observe the long-standing protocols of our motorcycle world.
    I respect your husband as a veteran. I am one myself. He has my undying gratitude, for fighting a dangerous, unpopular war, in a God-forsaken hell-hole of a country. I respect him for coming home and wanting to be a part of something that gives him the same sense of brotherhood he felt while in the service.
    Now, a big HOWEVER……the Iron Order has not ingratiated themselves with the motorcyling community, especially those of us who fly a 3-pc patch. WHY do they fly a patch that looks like an outlaw patch? Why do they want to be a part of our culture, when the LEOs in that club have been hell-bent on slapping anyone wearing a 3pc patch down? The whole premise of the IO to me smacks of hypocrisy, and the same cop-bully attitude we’ve been up against since forever! Now they want to look like us? WHY? Cuz they’re laughing up their fucking sleeve at us, that’s why! We know it, they know it. And because of that, the IO will never be accepted into our culture. They are an aberration!
    To your husband: Do yourself a favor my friend, find a real club to join.

  760. Jim666 Says:

    @ WARTHOG & Red&Gold.
    thank you both.

    I think all above answers ere very well said.

    Hopfully they will be read as ell as understood,



  761. Damien Says:

    I never post on any site normally. A friend was showing me this and I had to laugh. He also went on other sites and we looked at names. Hmm,,,,, same names. You guys all make statements about fake clubs. From what I see is allot of fake bikers and wanna be 1%. SYLO GFOD!

  762. Red&Gold Says:

    @ Damien

    I never post on any site normally. A friend was showing me your comment and I had to laugh. He also went on other sites and we looked at names. Hmmm…..same name…over 98 million times the same name you used here appears online with a quick google search… You make statements about fake bikers and wanna be 1%er’s, but from what I see on the interwebs, you are a fake, wanna be spawn of satan.

  763. Jim666 Says:

    @ Damien
    I use the same name everywhere I post,
    that way everyone knows I am me, and by now they now how I think and what Im about. Not to mention I have met quite a few of the men you call “Fake” in person from some of these as you say “Fake” biker sites, and I can tell you the ones Ive met are real, as they know I am as well.
    So anyone that would use my name in a derogatory statment about any respectable club or person, they would know that person is an imposter,
    now if you were a patch holder you would know how to conduct yourself on the net as well as in person, something tells me your a cheerleader.
    I may be wrong if so No disrespect intended of course, but if im rite you cheerleaders have a way of getting into business where you don`t belong,A lot of good men wearing a lot of differnt patches have died and been jailed over a cheerleader opening his mouth where he should keep it shut
    It,s great to have supporters they help things move along and usually are very generous to their club,s support, Hence the term “SUPPORTER”

    I think Red&Gold summed you up pretty well, “Damien”


  764. RLG Says:

    Well said Jim666!

    Love & Respect,


  765. Glenn S. Says:

    Queen Bee:

    The usual disclaimer: I am not a member of a club and will not speak about clubs. Nor am I a veteran, since I was a felon before I was old enough to enlist (which is also why I wouldn’t piss on a cop if he was on fire–I’ve seen their lack of honor, many times, firsthand, but that’s another story). But I do wonder how your husband’s logic would work if, while he was deployed, a group of guys in strange, yet slightly similar uniforms appeared and claimed to be a different branch of the armed forces that they invented themselves. Lets say they formed their own branch because they didn’t want to be some drill instructor’s bitch at Parris Island, or have to deal with the rigors of military training at all, for that matter. And all of them were at least sergeants from day one. And let’s say that they all wore replicas of Medals of Honor, which they paid for with money, and their “officers” demanded that your husband and the rest of the regular troops salute them and call them “sir”. How do you think that would go over?

  766. Just Curious ? Says:

    Ok after reading all the posts it amazes me the mentality of some people. How does a grown man living in the greatest country in the world wake up in the morning and put on a vest another man says he is ALLOWED to wear ? How does a man agree to be a support club of another club and only do what the dominant club allows them to do ? If I want to start a club in a particular location I have to ask your permission ? Really ? Why is that ? I am not taking any revenue from you, I am not ruining your life, I don’t care what you do or how you do it, and I certainly don’t care what is on your back. That is your business not mine and you should feel the same way.

    For the military men who posted, how do you go to war fight for our country and our freedoms then return home and allow another man / club to take them away from you ? Please tell me I don’t understand. Does Pizza Hut ask permission from Papa Gino’s if they want to open a restaurant in the same city they are located ? Does Kia ask permission from Chevrolet to open a dealership in the same city or town they are located ? And does Wendy’s ask permission from McDonalds to open up a location across the street from them ? The answer is NO ! And these companies are affecting the revenue and livelihood of each other but it’s the American Way.

    I applaud the Iron Order for what they have done whether you think its right or wrong it is the AMERICAN WAY. So for all you tough guys who are worried about a piece of cloth on someone’s back please get over it life is to short. You are not in elementary school “this is my side of the school yard not yours”. If you just take the time to stop and think about it you would realize how childish this whole philosophy is. To the best of my knowledge I don’t think the Iron Order cares who you are or what is on your back. You are a man and you live in America LAND OF THE FREE HOME OF THE BRAVE.

  767. WARTHOG Says:


    A little story for ya.

    A couple days ago I visited a club brother in the nursing home. He’s been in the club since the late’60’s. He told me that down the hall there was an old member from “your club” if you are who you claim to be. He was a long time member of the AOA and terminally ill of cancer. After visiting with my brother I went down to his room to give respect. Know this…I live in a red and white world but I give respect to all that earn it. He knew what my crossed hammers were on my cut, but still gave the same respect I showed him back to me.

    Why don’t you try being a real 1%er ( if that’s what you are) and show some respect here until some one like you shows they don’t deserve it. If you can’t manage that, then try a little STFU.




  768. Jim666 Says:

    @ Just Curious ?

    You said you read the replies above and you still ask these questions ?

    are you Retarded ? or just reaaaaallllll sssslllloooowwwwwww ?
    The biggest reason is non sanctioned clubs can go out riding and say something happens like one of their members gets drunk and kills someone
    or they rob somebody, all citizens see are colors most cant or dont distinguish one set of colors from another, that kind of shit brings down heat on all patches, thats why,,,,,,FUCK !

  769. Sieg Says:

    @just curious (yellow), there is a pig here posting as Abraham Iker…howsabout you two hook-up so you don’t hafta fuck yourself?

  770. Shocked Says:

    There are 12 contributors on this thread that have been saying the same things over and over. How sick they are to hear veterans say they fought for the right to wear what they want and to not have to ask permission. How dangerous it is to the 1% world to have clubs start up wearing 3 piece patches. No respect, threats, the MC way, blah blah blah blah and all the rest of the rhetoric we hear from all these criminal organizations. They almost sound half way intelligent until you really look at the crap they puke on here. There are 770 posts on this thread for over a year now. Over 400 of those posts were made by only 12 people. 12 people hijack this entire thread with their less than intelligent philosophies that are so against the founding principles of our great nation it is wonder they haven’t been run out of the country but then again it is on the backs and blood of our veterans that they have the ability to write what they want and believe what they want. What they will never do is stop the trend of freedom loving bikers from belonging to law abiding clubs like the IOMC who stand up for themselves and do the right thing. If you are half way intelligent and want to know what the IOMC stands for then go to their website. Read what it says. Don’t rely on the following idiots who have nothing to do with their lives other than write their diatribe of stupidity trying to convince you readers that they are endowed with the power to take away the rights, freedoms, and liberties we fight for and our ancestors granted to us by the blood shed and lives sacrificed not only in recent history but in 1776 when we said to the world we are freemen who have inalienable rights. But these people would like everyone to believe you don’t have those rights. I think we all know how to answer that. We all swear allegiance to the flag and the Republic for which it stands. Most took an oath to defend the Constitution of that Republic against all enemies foreign and domestic in which the First Amendment the right to congregate peacefully is guaranteed and it will never say the right to congregate peacefully if approved by Bobble Dick MC 1%er. But we all know how this will be answered by these people who feel they are above the law and the founding principles of the greatest country in the history of mankind because they are convicted felon and think law enforcement are the bad guys. So read their answers to this post and you can make your own mind up as to who is really on the right side of the fence. The following 12 people have literally driven the content of this thread and will continue to do so because they have nothing better to do. What they will never do is come out from behind their keyboards and do what the IOMC has done for many years. Be free and independent from anyone’s rules but their own.

    Glen S
    Red & Gold
    One Eye
    Back to Basics

  771. Sieg Says:

    Hey, glad I could make number one on your list, pig. Now, tell us again how these posers are the real deal. Takes a REAL man to fight it out with a cellphone and a badge.

  772. Glenn S Says:

    The pig has me in good company, for the most part. But it’s Glenn with TWO N’s.

  773. Uncle Don Says:


    Your full of shit as a Christmas goose.

    uncle don

  774. Pig Says:

    Woohoo! I made the list!

    And you’re right. That’s why my grandfather served under General Patton, one of my uncles stormed Normandy and the other had his ship shot to hell at Pearl Harbor, my father fought in ‘Nam and my brother and I each did a tour in the Corps. All so the Iron Order could fly a three part patch.

    You know what? Fuck it; if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. I think that we should all order ourselves a brand new set of Iron Order patches, slap them on the back of a vest and ride around doing whatever the fuck we want. It’s a free country after all. Now let’s see…where did I put my flag and my piece of apple pie?

    Ou know, the sad thing is that our Founding Fathers had a great vision for this country and people like you “Shocked” obviously have no idea what it was. I suggest you stop relying on you public education and do a little research before you come on here telling me about what our veterans have been fighting and dying for all these years. Ignorant dicks like you are the very reason this country is in the mess it is.

  775. Paladin Says:

    I only had one post on this thread. Yet, I made the list. How cool is that!?

  776. Samurai Says:

    If you come back on here Shocked, do me a favor and point out where I said i supported the viewpoint you are associating me wiht. I thought i i had made it kind of clear where i lay on this subject

  777. WARTHOG Says:

    Priceless…absolutely priceless! I read Shocked’s post with America the Beautiful playing in the background and an American flag waving. I AM a vet you fucktard. I learned something about honor, respect, and duty while serving in the army. I guess while I was in I should have slapped a couple stars on my lapels and paraded around like something I’m not like the IO does. At least I made the list with men that understand what freedom really is.




  778. Snow Says:

    Well hell, I didn’t make the list but agree with the one’s on it. I would never be associated with a club full of known cops nor where patches are sold to the wearer, respect given to those patch holders who earned it.

  779. Glenn S. Says:

    I just like for there to be some places in the world where I don’t have to be around cops. Not because I want to break the law, but because I prefer the company of people like myself. I cannot relate to people who have made it their mission in life to enforce societal norms and selected laws they themselves do not obey. I don’t even want to be around the rare cops that believe in and enforce all laws, including the ones their brother cops break all the time. I’ve found that one of the few places in this world where I’m comfortable is that part of the biker community that centers around respected motorcycle clubs, where what you see in others is generally what you get. Its annoying when the enforcement arm of a society that has rejected me and those like me insists on admittance to one of the few places in the world where the omnipresence of cops is minimal. But that’s just me.

  780. Jim666 Says:

    Well Shit !
    Shocked,,,,, Thats a great name for you, by the way your not alone in your thoughts,thats why we as Bbikers Patch holders try to stay away from your kind, As far as serving this country, Id almost be willing to put my bike on the fact that most if not all the names you listed above me included have been in combat or at least served in the armed forces.
    Your Stupidity amazes me, that is if you infact as you stated read any of the comments before yours,
    I just cant comprehend that this thread is still filled w/ people like you if in fact you read the comments the answers are all there and have been in these comments even before I ever commented here.
    If you were a devout Christian would you try to hang out in a church of satan if you wernt wanted there ?
    Didnt think so, I know Im just wasting my time by typing this but,im bored this morning anyway,
    You see people like you, and the members of the above mentioned cop club just dont and probably never will understand our socieity,
    Thats why we dont want or need people like you around,
    one thing you touched on is it is indeed a free country,
    now this is just a sugestion, you have the freedom to leave, youve posted your openion, as we all have ours , now it,s clear you and your kind do not belong around the likes of me and my kind, go play on faceook

  781. Sieg Says:

    Jim, I’d about bet that many oif the IP’s seen in this and other threads are identical. Round up some pork at the station, show it how to puch the right keys, and away you go-instant trollage.

    FTP / FTF

  782. Rebel Says:

    Dear Jim666,

    Combat is where bikers come from.


  783. Jim666 Says:

    @ Sieg & Rebel
    Exactly .

    Respects to you Both.


  784. RLG Says:

    Shocked obviously a female.

    The female mind is not hindered by logic. Or maybe the female mind IS hindered by logic…

    Just another loopy cunt. (I wouldn’t speak this way to a female normally but she is in here spouting off so game on)

  785. Paladin Says:

    I’ve always wondered why the skull on the IO patch resembles that of a primate. I guess it’s part of the “monkey see, monkey do” genetic makeup of the IO members.

    Long May You Ride,


  786. One Eye Says:

    @Shocked: This little dissertation reminded me of Bluto’s pep talk to the Deltas when he was speaking of the Germans bombing Pearl Harbour in Animal House, and I swear I heard “America the Beautiful” playing in the background. If you would have named one more person on your list we could have started a new M/C called the “Baker’s Dozen M/C”. The patch could have been 13 donuts in a circle. Oh sorry, that’s probably taken. However, allow me to correct some misnomers:

    1) Nobody is saying that you can’t create a club of any kind based on your inalienable rights conferred to you. However, there are consequences for every decision and for every action there is a reaction.

    2) Your post sounds as though you are implying that I am a patch holder. I do not fly a patch of any kind and I have reiterated that.

    3) I don’t live in your great country.

    Anything I type is my opinion – my right to do so – and if you don’t like my opinion (because sometimes the truth hurts) well that’s unfortunate, but immaterial. I find it sad that you hides behind some jingoistic rant of inalienable rights and the Founding Fathers because the overwhelming consensus many have of the club, of which you are a member, is that they are seen as hypocrites and posers. By the way, my Dad fought on the island of Malta in WWII; go crack a book on the subject before boring me with a guilt trip about freedoms bestowed upon me by the sacrifice of veterans.

  787. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    Are there really 700+ posts on this thread? And 400 of them by 12 people? Anyone else ever had the time or desire to count posts on a thread and then go back and count those by certain contributors?

    Who has that kind of time? Besides Shocked? I’m gonna assume that Shocked is being paid for that time, either by a government agency or by a government welfare program. This 4th-generation veteran thinks Shocked can probably find something else to do with those freedoms my family and I, and most other contributors here, bought and paid for. Go count your blessings, Shocked. Then go use your EBT card to buy some booze and cigarettes. You’re welcome.

  788. Glenn S. Says:

    This thread is getting repetitious. Someone says: “Hey, I’m a great guy, and I like IO! Why don’t y’all?” Then a bunch of people answer the post in basically the same way that they’ve answered the previous, similar ones. Then somebody jumps in with generally disrespectful grievance to what’s been said again and again. Eventually, the thread goes on the back burner for awhile until somebody else asks the question again.

    Maybe future IO wannabes can just look over the previous posts and see if their questions have not already been answered, save themselves and everybody else some irritation.

  789. One Eye Says:

    @Glenn S: A-men!! I find the critical difference between them and the clubs they dislike is the clubs they don’t like couldn’t possibly care that they don’t like them. They post pissing and moaning about not having to have anyone’s approval and inalienable rights and Founding Fathers and tastes great and less filling and who fucking cares? For a bunch of bikers who can swing their dicks wherever they please because of their freedom, they sure seem to seek a lot of validation.

  790. Paladin Says:

    @ Glenn S. & One Eye,


    Long May You Ride,


  791. Va.Bob Says:

    Some threads just keep on going ,like the Energizer Bunny.On Fayetteville ,N.C. Topix,people have been commenting about the Wingmen MC for over 3 years now.

  792. Phuquehed Says:

    Well damn! The Shocktard didn’t put me on his list. He sure showed how he’s the biggest dick-sucker of the local chapter of the IO in his area though! Hey Shocktard, when one of those pigs in the local IO chapter call you up for a nightly favor, what name do they *really* call you? I’d put money on ‘Bitch’.

  793. Just Curious ? Says:

    Glen S
    Red & Gold
    One Eye
    Back to Basics

    All you guys really need to get a life and take a good look ad the Constitution of the United States. Again, I don’t understand why you think you have the right to tell another man or club what they can wear or do ? The Iron Order has NEVER told anyone what they can or cannot wear any rocker or design of their choice. And they have never told anyone that cant have a club in any particular location. Bottom line is they exist and grow whether you or anyone else likes it or not. They are doing nothing wrong to you or anyone else. So I thinks its time you get over it because they are here to stay whether you like it or not.

  794. One Eye Says:

    “Maybe future IO wannabes can just look over the previous posts and see if their questions have not already been answered, save themselves and everybody else some irritation.”

    I’m certain I heard Handel’s Messiah when I read Glenn S’s post.

    @Just Curious: I believe your post was addressed in the previous 700,000 posts by the Diabolical Dozen.

  795. Sieg Says:

    I’m gonna reform.

    Just curious, tho’, since I’m gon reform and all, where do I send my $12.99 for my IO cut? Can I just get TWO pieces of it for $8.60???

    FTF / FTP (especially the ones trying to look like Scooter Trash)

  796. WARTHOG Says:

    Hey, sieg. For an even $15 they will send you one pre-dirtied so you don’t have to walk around in it sparkling white for the next ten years. It is very difficult to dirty one on your own just pulling out a cell phone and a badge wearing that cut.




  797. Pig Says:

    @ Just Curious: To hell with it, I’m in the mood for a good debate. Plus, now I’m curious. Where in the Constitution does it say that you have the right to wear or do anything you want? That’s not a rhetorical question; I’d actually like an answer. While you’re at it, please point out the part that requires everyone else to accept you and treat you as equals.

    @ Everyone else: Fuck me! Is this the ignorant shit you guys put up with all the time?

  798. Glenn S. Says:

    Just Curious said: “Again, I don’t understand why you think you have the right to tell another man or club what they can wear or do ?”

    Try wearing a nun’s outfit and then hang out in the women’s restroom, see how that goes over with the nuns and the women.

  799. Just Curious ? Says:

    Glenn S.
    When you ask for a comparison you need to compare like situations. No one from the IO is wearing your your patch. If someone is wearing your patch then you should be upset. The patch design is theirs and yours is yours. If you want to use your comparison should nuns from one order be uspet because nuns from another order are wearing a different habit…NO. So I ask you again “why you think you have the right to tell another man or club what they can wear or do ?”

    The Constitution of the United States says “all men are created equal”. So if you want to wear a patch on your back you can. But by the same token so can they and everyone else. You don not have to treat them as equals if you don’t want to that is your freedom. Go about your business and they will go about theirs.

  800. Red&Gold Says:

    @Just Bi-Curious?

    I am not going to sit here trying to explain what 11 other guys and I have apparently spent 400 (lol) or so posts trying to explain to people who will never,ever “get it”, just like you… while you clearly know very little about Respect, and even less about clubbing and clubbers, there is one thing I will spend a couple seconds to tell you so you do understand, even though you will be unable to grasp the truth of my statement: I have a life…a fan-fucking-tastic life…one that you, or any other fake club supporter or members can not relate to and never will be able too…because you are not capable of earning it…

  801. WARTHOG Says:

    @ just curious,

    I really hope for all our sake you are not a LEO. You don’t know what the constitution says although you claim to quote it. No where does it say that all men are created equal. Article I, section 2 says that slaves only count as 3/5ths of a person (amended later, of course). You’re talking about the Declaration of Independence you fuckin’ douche bag.



  802. Snow Says:

    @Just Curious
    Man, some people just will never get it, nowhere does any of our bill of rights give anyone rights to wear whatever they want no more than it grants your rights to go where ever you want. We call it proper protocol, showing respect to a long standing organization before moving into their, usually hard earned by the way, area. A lack of common sense and poor manners seems to be the norm these days. I don’t know, maybe we were raised better but copying a man’s dress or style here is pretty much the same as calling him out and he will have a strong response to that. If you want to be accepted then you have to show your worthy, it ain’t gunna change just cause you want it to. Snow

  803. Pig Says:

    That’s what I thought. And you have the balls to come on here and tell me that I need to take a good look at the Constitution? I suppose that you think somewhere in the Constitution we are guaranteed a separation of church and state as well.

    Nowhere in the Constitution of the United States does it say anything about all men being created equal. As was pointed out by WARTHOG that is however one of the self evident truths listed in the Declaration of Independence. But like everyone else who twists and contorts the words and writings of our founders to justify their own selfish actions, you are even taking that phrase out of context. If they had meant that all men are created equal in the way you are using it, why didn’t they ban slavery in the Constitution? Might I suggest you take your own advice and maybe crack open a book or two and make sure you know what the hell you’re talking about before you start suggesting that others don’t? You should be embarrassed. Something tells me that you are not.

    Clubs like the Iron Order do exist and maybe there is nothing anybody can do about it. Many things in this world exist that nobody has been able to get rid of; like the common cold, fire ants, and herpes. You act like the Iron Order is just riding along doing their own thing and minding their own business, when in fact, everything that you are claiming as yours has been blatantly plagiarized by you from the men you so arrogantly chastise in your posts (me excluded). The look, the cut, the culture, THE THREE PIECE PATCH, even arguably the bikes are ALL a product of their design. Like a parasite, you have contributed nothing and everything you claim to be “your business” has been taken by you from those who have worked for it. Without so much as a by your leave or a respectful nod in their direction, you look like them, dress like them, talk like them; you show up at rallies and events that were started by them, and then claim that you are doing your own thing?

    Frankly I’ve wasted enough of my life talking to you. Do whatever the hell you want. I’m through with you. I’m sure you will read this and like you did with all the other posts, you will take a step back give that etch-a-sketch brain of yours a good shake to erase it all and come backs squawking your bullshit like a parrot. BWAAAAK!!! Constitution! BWAAAAK!!! All men are created equal! BWAAAK!!!

  804. Rebel Says:

    Dear Just Curious,

    I don’t follow this thread. This thread spun way out of my control long ago. And, that’s fine with me. I have always intended for the comments on this site to be like the althing. Everybody can speak their piece within certain guidelines — like don’t slander wives and don’t use this site as a forum to get a louder voice in internal club politics.

    What I call the motorcycle outlaw frontier is a closed and conservative counterculture and it is older than you are. Like every other society, it has rules. Rules keep order and rules keep the peace.

    I have long said, to the mystification of most people, that one of the ways in which this country went wrong was in the organization of youth sports. In ancient times, kids just played and they all played by the rules because when there are no rules there is no game. Kids would call their own fouls. Kids told the truth when they stepped out of bounds. Kids played fair. Then youth sports came along. Baseball, football, basketball and my favorite sport, rock fights, became much more about winning by any means necessary than about playing. Kids didn’t organize their own games. Adults organized child’s play for them. And the result of all that was a generation of yuppie mother fuckers who never thought the rules of proper conduct between men applied to them. Little League bred a generation of draft dodgers, slackers and cheats.

    I don’t know you, Just Curious, but I bet you played Little League. So you never learned to play by the rules. You never called your own fouls. I bet the rules for you are not something you live by but some line of clever bullshit you think will excuse your cheating. I bet nobody ever told you not to do that. These dozen or so guys in this thread have all been telling you to not call your foul balls fair and then brazen out your fucking lie. There is no adult to bail you out. There are only your peers in this world. If you don’t play by the rules, they can all see you are a liar and a cheat even if your mommy and daddy can’t.

    Probably, you will never get this. Probably, when someone tells you in a cheerful, cooperative and polite way to stop being a rude asshole it never sinks in. If all the other people who comment here can’t make you see there is no reason to think I will make you see. But what you need to know is simple. You didn’t invent this world. It is bigger than you are. It is older than you are. It is more important than you are. There are certain rules of conduct here. Play by the rules or put up your hands or get the fuck out.

    The subject of whether you have to play by the rules or not has much more to do with baseball than it does with the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. No rules, no game. Shut up and play by the rules.

    Does that clear up your inability to understand the simplest fucking thing? Or are you still confused?

    Merry Christmas,

  805. Phuquehed Says:

    Apparently the Shocktard is also Just Bi-Curious (good one, Red&Gold!), and even if not, both still dumber than a dick in an crabs infested whorehouse. The dick is myopic and completely thoughtless. It wants into that wet, stinky hole whether the rest of what carries it around wants the same or not. It has only one thought and one way of seeing things and is unable to learn anything whatsoever…just like our widdle Shocktard/Just Bi-Curious. Dumbshitpunk is his/their middle name.

  806. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    Just Curious…

    While you are frantically Googling ways to re-interpret the intentions of our Founding Fathers in order to compose another misguided attempt to convince these gentlemen you’ve committed no faux-pas, don’t forget to open another browser window and click on a bunch of ads for Rebel. You’re doing such a stellar job of making an ass of yourself that it’s only fair you contribute for the space to do so.

  807. WARTHOG Says:

    Thanks, Rebel. Respects and Merry Christmas.



  808. Jim666 Says:

    Just Curious ? Says:
    December 18th, 2012 at 8:54 am

    No one from the IO is wearing your your patch.

    No one in the IO is man enough to wear my patch, or any of the other men you named clubs patches ! thats why there who they are,, awwwww fuck it,, im done

    @ One eye, The Diabolical Dozen.,,lmao, thats funny

  809. Bill Says:

    Rebel: You must’ve grown up in a pretty serious neighborhood if the adults were organizing your rock fights. Our parents were doing everything in their impotent power to stop to what was (also) our ‘favorite sport’. I was a kid in the Oakland Hills for a while, and once they cleared a slope of some minor eucalyptus, so we quickly stacked the branches into four-sided forts, within throwing distance, and it being the rainy season, there was ample mud to roll into tennis-ball sized ammo, stuffed with rocks, which we spread out on ‘shelves’ inside the fort to dry, for better effect. Great fun!
    Then there was the pitched battle at Montclair Park one day, with half a dozen or so in this observation ‘tower’ (maybe 8′ off the ground), and the rest of us attacking in a giddy swarm from all angles. Almost “Lord of The Flies’ stuff. Anyone bothering to read my posts can probably tell I took a few head shots from time to time.

  810. One Eye Says:

    The Constitution states, “All men are created equal.”

    Ha ha ha ha ha!! I hope you see Santa on Christmas Eve. Being created and living a palpable, viable life are light years apart.

    Rebel, you’re sports analogy is brilliant.

  811. Rebel Says:

    Dear Bill

    A very little boy stood upon a heap of gravel for the honor of Rum Alley. He was throwing stones at howling urchins from Devil’s Row who were circling madly about the heap and pelting at him.

    His infantile countenance was livid with fury. His small body was writhing in the delivery of great, crimson oaths.

    “Run, Jimmie, run! Dey’ll get yehs,” screamed a retreating Rum Alley child.

    “Naw,” responded Jimmie with a valiant roar, “dese micks can’t make me run.”

    Howls of renewed wrath went up from Devil’s Row throats. Tattered gamins on the right made a furious assault on the gravel heap. On their small, convulsed faces there shone the grins of true assassins. As they charged, they threw stones and cursed in shrill chorus.

    The little champion of Rum Alley stumbled precipitately down the other side. His coat had been torn to shreds in a scuffle, and his hat was gone. He had bruises on twenty parts of his body, and blood was dripping from a cut in his head. His wan features wore a look of a tiny, insane demon.

    The words are Stephen Crane’s.

    Merry Christmas,

  812. Red&Gold Says:

    “Here, you Just Curious, git up, now, while I belt yer life out, you damned disorderly brat.”…lol….

  813. Glenn S. Says:

    Just Curious said: “Glenn S.
    When you ask for a comparison you need to compare like situations. No one from the IO is wearing your your patch…”

    If you had read my posts instead of just counting them you will know that I do not wear a patch and never claim to wear one. But if I ever do, it will be because I have earned one. I have no interest in buying one, having one handed to me, or calling anybody “brother” that supports law enforcement. I’ll either earn one in the traditional manner or be judged on my own merits as an individual.

    Who I associate with, who I choose not to associate with, who I like and respect and why is my own business. I am not a lifelong biker. I bought my first motorcycle about 3 years ago because I got clean, became basically law abiding (but not contrite), and was bored. Friends encouraged me to start riding. They said I’d love it and I do. It fills the hole that a gun in my hand or a needle in my arm used to fill and it doesn’t get old, it gets better. Maybe some of those friends, and some friends I’ve made since then, wear patches. Maybe I look around and see how their club structure works and admire and respect it. Maybe I just don’t like people who pretend to be something they are not. I’ve been through a lot of shit in my life, I’m very comfortable looking in the mirror, and, from the gut, the iron order feels like something that is not so comfortable with who and what they are. When people like that get together, it usually doesn’t end well for them or those they encounter.

    One thing for sure. I am done with this thread. It long ago became an exercise in futility. So, Curious George, curious enough to count but not curious enough to read, you can stop counting my posts on this thread right now.

  814. Just Curious ? Says:

    Thanks for all your replies and you are all correct I meant to say Declaration of Independence not Consitution. But either or the bottom line is none of you have the right to tell anyone what to wear, am I correct? Bottom line here is everyone is getting all frustrated over a piece of cloth. Its a patch saying you belong to a club and thats it. Whether they have cops or cab drivers in their club its none of your business nor is it any of their business who is in your club.

    Now get off the keyboard and go out and ride thats what I am going to do…and forget about another mans patch. He is a man just like you free to ride anywhere in the USA wearing whatever he wants just like you.

  815. Phuquehed Says:

    @Just Bi-Curious – STFU already, you fucktard. That really loud noise that’s *WHOOSHED* past your head a few times these past few days was the point you keep missing. The only point you seem intelligent enough to know about is the one on the top of your head. Now, go get in a circle-jerk with your IO lovers and piss off.

  816. 10GUAGE Says:


    “Play by the rules, or put up your hand, or get the fuck out”


    Strength, Respect, Honor,

  817. PigPen Says:

    wow i haven’t seen this thread in a while, glad to see it still has life in it. and glad to see all the people that don’t get it. but what does make me smile, is all the people that say hey man, it’s a free world man, it’s every man’s right to wear what he wants man, it’s all equal man, have never been in club. all the complainers that want it to be equal, don’t even have a dog in the fight.
    it’s not all the same, it is not all equal, not in the MC community, not in real fucking life asshole. the CEO of that company, is not equal to the janitor at the local high school taking the bus to work. people piss and moan about equality among the species. it is not fucking possible.
    same with the MC world, it is not the same for us. we spent countless days stocking the bar, mopping the floor, throwing out the trash, getting a 3 am call to pick up a broken down Brother while having to go to work in 2 hours, all to get that Patch. To earn the right to belong to that club, to call other like minded men, Brother. We fought and sacrificed for that Patch. So when a few dicks come into town, and have the advantage of having some cops in the club, and all of a sudden say, hey, we want to play in the sandbox too, look we have patches. it aint equal. i don’t give a fuck how much brass you got in the club, you did not earn what i earned. you might try to copy the local clubs, you might try to look like them, but you didn’t earn shit. you know it, and we sure as shit know it.
    i’m one of the people that says you wanna wear that shit at the same bar as me, fine. i won’t even bat an eye at ya. but, when you start acting like you are on the same level as me, did what i did, or call me Brother, then we can fuck or fight over it, cause that aint gonna fly.

  818. Sieg Says:

    Had to look back through here…I have a grand total of 15 posts in this thread, many of them in a convo betwixt a friend and I. Guess that’s enough to make a pig feel threatened.

    Anyone can wear anything everywhere.

    And then they can back it up.

    Fuck the Feds / Fuck the Pigs

    The Only Solution Is Another Revolution

  819. Bill Says:

    Rebel: Like loads of other stuff, I’d never even heard of Stephen Crane till I found you here. THANKS, for that and a whole lot more.
    Merry Christmas to you as well!

  820. Rebel Says:

    Dear Just Curious,

    Archaeological evidence indicates that human beings were using symbols at least 70,000 years ago and possibly 150,000 years ago. Maybe your ancestors missed that day. Let me help you catch up. Dress up like Swat and go to the mall. Engage your fellow shoppers in spirited debate. When the police arrive explain that you have the right to wear any costume you want.

    Then I want you to go to a Catholic church this Sunday dressed as a Cardinal, okay? Invite the worshippers to kiss your ring.

    Then I want you to put on a pair of hot pants and a pushup bra, okay? Hang out for a few hours on the nearest stroll.

    I want to hear back from you after you do all this. Just a little experiment. See if you learn anything or if you are just a troll.

    Merry Christmas,

  821. Rebel Says:

    Dear Bill,

    Yeah, Crane is probably my favorite writer. He probably wrote those words about the rock fight when he was 19. He wrote The Red Badge of Courage when he was probably 22. He did a lot of research for that book and spoke to many veterans but he had never actually seen a war so he wasn’t sure he had gotten it right. He spent the rest of his life chasing wars in Cuba and Europe because he wanted to write the truth. He was ship wrecked smuggling guns. He pissed off cops in New York and had to leave town. He wrote about nine-year-olds working in coal mines and ironic gun fights on the last of the frontier. He spent his last months living with Joseph Conrad, another writer I admire. Conrad and his wife took in Crane and his wife when the Cranes were poor and had no where else to go. Crane and Conrad sat accross from each other at Conrad’s writing table and worked every day. Crane coughed himself to death at 29. Over ten years he must have written at least a million words. He was a writers’ writer, I think.

    Merry Christmas,

  822. Sieg Says:

    Crane was pretty good…but Jozef Konrad was about the best in the writing gig. When you consider that he didn’t even speak English until he was in his twenties, it is a trip. People see his work and never even know it’s him, ref. “Heart of Darkness”. If you ever scope it in a used-book shop, many moons ago “A Conrad’s Argosy” was published, and is definitely worth the read.

  823. BigV Says:




  824. Rebel Says:

    Dear Sieg,

    Don’t get me started on Conrad. He was 40-years-old. His hair was turning grey and he couldn’t get the jobs he could when he was younger. (His first published story was about a second mate who died his hair.) He had to do something to live so he started writing down his stories. I love Conrad’s work.

    Merry Christmas

  825. RLG Says:

    “Exterminate all the Beasts”

  826. Uncle Don Says:

    @ Just Curious


    uncle don.

  827. Wretched Man Says:

    Hard to believe this thread is still running………….
    With regards to “Just Curious”, I think it was Einstein who said: “Only two things are infinite, the universe & human stupidity, & I’m not sure about the former…”
    A short while back I spent some time in your beautiful country, attended a few biking events, & I was surprised to see an IO cut sporting a Cali rocker, being paraded with a swagger. It was so SAD, quite pathetic really. The general consensus was to “let them play with themselves” & aforementioned member was politely ignored (he came across as “Johnny No Mates”).
    In South Africa we are already further down this road (paved by the likes of IO & others) & I can tell you its not very encouraging. The world of bikers is being invaded by Yuppie’s, Baby Boomers, Wannabe’s, & on these shores they are by far the majority…

    Rebel thank you for your outstanding work.
    Much L&R to the REAL bikers out there
    Merry Christmas


  828. Jake56 Says:

    58yo. Vet. Finally got my bike 3 years ago. Call it an end of life crisis. Met the IO one day. Stopped for gas, went in to get a bottle of water and smokes, said hello to one of them. He was celebrating his first ride as a PH. Told me he was riding with his bros…..after 2 months as a prospect! I played dumb..and said congrats…that I didn’t really know anything about the MC world…said have a great day..ride safe.

    Dad always taught me..”give respect to get respect”. Thin apologies to LEO’s here..but for the way I was brought up…for the world I was brought up in…the IO will get courtesy…but not my respect. If you don’t know what I am talking about..oh fucking well!

    Sadly..with the times being what they are..I’d trust a 1% PH before I trust any IO’s. My intuition carried me thru 30 years of military service and I know what I saw and felt that day, was not right!

    Any of you wear a Purple Heart, or Medal of Honor and go parading around town when you didn’t earn it?

    I know that “They” can wear anything they want, because this is still the USA. But its like wearing military service ribbons that they never earned.

    Love & Respect to all those that have “Earned” your patch!

    Merry Christmas & Happy New Year from an old guy who just loves to ride!

    Rant over!

  829. Arctic Fox Says:

    There is a lot of bull shit written in this posting. it started out a cool and interesting read until all the high school quiffing about “real” and “fake” MCs started.

    Why supposed bad asses and “rebels” give a shit about what other people do is beyond comprehension. Riding is about living a bohemian lifestyle free from the shackles of conformist horse shit. Yet, we have bunch of cry asses whining about who is doing what when it has fuck all to do with you or your thing.

    I can see getting in a twist if a group is throttling your business; then by all means deal with those pricks. Otherwise, live your own life, ride because you love it, club because you love the camaraderie and brother hood that comes with it, and leave everyone else the fuck alone.

    This bull shit why I ride alone. Grow the fuck up.

  830. Just an old guy. Says:

    I started reading Rebel’s stuff a while back and kept my opinions to myself. But, a recent run in with some IO members has spurred me to contribute some thoughts. I offer these next lines as an offer of credentials. I have been riding motorcycles since 1969. My first Harley was after I got out of the Navy and it’s been Harleys ever since. I have associated with a couple of clubs but never stayed in one place long enough to join. I just liked their company. There is a difference in MC brothers and the rest of us. They are committed to something bigger than themselves. Willing to die for it. What are we willing to die for? Kids? Grand kids in my case. My independence. IO? I was told that their priority is “Family, job, then club.” Seriously? Most patch holders that I have known didn’t have time for jobs. Jobs interfered with club business. Maybe times have changed.

    To me, they want to be bikers, look like them and act like them, but they will always be out on the edge somewhere, pretending. LEO bike clubs are the same. Some kind of weird mix of law and order and rebellious disorder. Just wanting to be something but not quite making it. Weird.

    I don’t give a shit what someone wants to wear anymore than I give a shit what someone wants to be. I also don’t think you get any respect because you want to be something that you aren’t. You get respect because you become what you wanted to be. I don’t respect pretenders or liars. Don’t go flexing your pretend shit my way. Yeah, you have the right to wear your shit, but it isn’t a pass, it’s a costume.

  831. Snow Says:

    Great , another one…..

  832. rollinnorth Says:

    Meanwhile, William “Spook” Sosebee sits in prison.

  833. Arctic Fox Says:


    I actually enjoy some of your posts. You’re pretty well written. It makes me wonder what you actually do for a living and how old your are because you do not appear to be in the same league with most of the posters.

    Reading one of your writings I came across the phrase “conservative counterculture” and was curious to have you flesh that thought out a bit. It sort of smoked my stack reading it in that context. Intuitively, it is a beauty of an oxymoron- one that I am going to hang on to. It’s a great phrase.

    @Snow – I will assume your comment was addressing my comment without substance.

    The post is overflowing with circuitous arguments about what constitutes meritorious patching versus everything else. I hope some of the examples about giving rides, bar backing, and pushing broom are not the pinnacle of “earning” a patch. If it is, that shit is pathetic. It sound like a bunch of fraternity hazing bull shit.

    If you want to talk a game about what it takes to be a supposed real club, then by all means, bend my ear and enlighten me.

    @Rollinnorth – William “Spook” Sosebee sits in prison for stabbing another person. Actions have consequences seems to be an often retreaded tire on this posting. Offering that nugget of wisdom one more time certainly does not bring any undue surprise to the conversation.

    I am curious about the complete animosity towards cops. Granted there is a LARGE contingency of douche bag cops who were the kids picked on constantly growing up and are looking to get even hiding behind the badge. Still there are some decent cops. It’s like there is a bunch of little kids in here pissing in the wind over the hall monitor doing their job or abusing it gleefully like a cocksucker. It’s all part of the game. You find the same shit in every walk of life- including the biker world.

    One thing I will say about cops is this: whether you truck with them or not, they actually do defend the freedoms of most everyone here. They are on the frontline protecting freedoms you take for granted everyday IN AMERICA. Military posters wiping their ass with a police officer’s courage and duty is bullshit. I know many of you will not like that because it doesn’t comport with hodgepodge ethos buffet you selectively dine from, but it’s the truth. They are the garbage men of society. If anyone has earned the right to tell society to suck a dick, then they should be close to the front of the line for the all horse shit they have to put up with on a daily basis.

    This coming from a person in a position takes bites out of their asses within their sphere of influence.

  834. Goldsboro Williams Says:


    Me thinks thou doth protest too much. Either that or you are deliberately missing some of the other poster’s points.

    PS What the hell does that last sentence mean? All I get from it is that you like to be in a position to be close enough to bite people’s asses…? WTH?


  835. 10GUAGE Says:

    Richard … I mean Artic…Artic Wrench…. Artic Fox

    Yes after all this time you are still a terrible writer…In fact please put the thesaurus away it makes it sound like you have fucking marbles in your mouth.

    And you still don’t know shi about this lifet…and never will

    My back is to you

  836. Sieg Says:

    Dear Arctic Pig;

    If what the pigs do is defend my freedom, I’d just as lief be a slave.

    As far as actions having consequences, well maybe Mr. Moye should have been told that before playing the badass and getting himself shanked.

    Now, why don’t you run along back to the station house and quit stirring shit?

  837. PigPen Says: