The Agent Who Became Lost

February 21, 2010

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“On November 15, 2006,” according to a government document, “Special Agent Daniel Hebert of ATF’s New Orleans Field Office” officially reported that he had spoken to an unnamed Hells Angel. The unnamed Angel told Hebert he had talked to a club brother named Doug Wistrom and he had learned from Wistrom that the Hells Angels were “going to start our campaign against (ATF Special Agent Jay) Dobyns. We know where he is….”

Where Dobyns was that November was hiding out in Los Angeles. The bright, big nowhere was his fourth city in two years. Tucson had yielded to the wine country around Santa Maria, California. From there Dobyns was transferred to El Lay which was a doorway to what the ATF has described as a “covert apartment” in Washington, DC. Then in June 2006 he was ordered back to the TMZ which had always been his first choice.

In Los Angeles the ATF started threatening to transfer Dobyns yet again. According to Dobyns, his supervisor told him that he “had worn out his welcome with ATF. If I have my way,” the supervisor continued, “you’ll spend the rest of your career in Headquarters or Guam. I am familiar with Anderson Air Force Base there. It is a postage stamp in the middle of nowhere. A perfect place for you to finish your career.” As Dobyns describes it, he was not surprised. He already thought the ATF was out to get him.

Significant Activity Report

Hebert’s “Significant Activity Report” described the fourth rumored threat Dobyns had heard during his exodus. The last one turned out to be almost magically ironic. When the ATF asked the New Orleans Agent to elaborate, Hebert replied that his source was “often full of crap.” And, then he explained that the campaign to which his snitch had referred, “was more of a legal nature, such as lawsuits and all.”

Dobyns insists that there was more to the threat than that. He claims that the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club “intended to sue” him “in civil court with the intention of getting him fired.” Once he was “outside of ATF protection” the motorcycle club was going to murder him. And, according to Dobyns version, before the unnamed Angels murdered him they were going to “arrange and videotape the gang rape” of his wife.

So now, in February 2010, I conclude it must have been just about November of 2006 that Jay Dobyns became lost. Life does not need turning points but stories do.

Describing him as “lost” may be a way of making excuses for Dobyns. I want to make excuses for him. I do not want to think that he is as crazy and greedy and hungry for fame as he seems. Jay Dobyns is an immensely likable guy: Man’s man, been shot, good athlete, humble, plain spoken and the ATF hates him. The first thing I ever said to Dobyns was something like, “I can see how you got over on the Angels.”

But, my attitude toward the guy swings like a pendulum. I sympathize with him until I glance up at my favorite Jay Dobyns quote. It is something he told a writer named Julian Sher in 2004 or 2005 and when I sat down to write this I scribbled the quote on a post-it note and stuck that note on the upper left corner of my computer screen. On the note Jay says, “I know I can get over on people.”

The Prophecy

Dobyns adventures have been recounted so many times; he has given so many interviews and so much testimony; he has said so many contradictory things and so many contradictory things have been said about him that he has become thoroughly camouflaged in a cloud of confusion. At the same time, people who know nothing about bikers or motorcycle clubs know the name Jay Dobyns.

Threats two, three and four against Dobyns were all reported by snitches hoping to score a couple of gold stars from some government agent. Threat one came in anger, over drinks in a Tucson bar, when a Hells Angel named Robert McKay allegedly told Dobyns that he was “a marked man” who was “going to spend the rest of his life on the run.” McKay was arrested the next day for threatening a federal agent and in his memoir Dobyns portrays McKay’s arrest as an investigative victory.

An author named Kerrie Droban published a book about Dobyns three years ago. It is called Running With The Devil and that title alludes to McKay and Dobyn’s conversation. According to Droban, McKay’s exact words were, “We’ll find you. We’ll get you. For the rest of your life you’ll be running from the devil.”

Well, maybe McKay said that. I don’t know for sure. I haven’t checked with McKay and neither Droban nor Dobyns has told me what the exact words really were. An ATF Agent named Darrin Kozlowski is supposed to have been with Dobyns that evening so I guess he could confirm the quote. But, I have been looking for Kozlowski and it is starting to looking like Kozlowski doesn’t want me to find him. So, I have to go by my instincts and my instincts say Droban probably made up the quote.

I wish she hadn’t. It is such a good quote I wish I could have led this story with that. It is like the moment Macbeth meets the witches on the dark and foggy moor. Because from the lofty perch of here and now McKay’s pronouncement does not look like a threat at all. It looks like a prophesy. Or a curse.

Jay Who

Jay Dobyns is a former University of Arizona football star and a long time ATF Agent who was posing as a freelance gun dealer in Bullhead City, Arizona in the Spring of 2002. He says he was drinking with some Hells Angels in a bar in the Flamingo in Laughlin, Nevada when a memorable biker brawl erupted up Casino Road in Harrah’s. Other accounts say Dobyns was playing cards and frolicking with his peers in a safe house the night of the brawl.

Wherever he was he was close enough to the action to become one of the lead Agents on the scene. When the ATF decided to launch an undercover investigation of the Hells Angels in Arizona it became Jay Dobyns’ case.

The investigation soon incorporated the brutal murder of a woman named Cynthia Garcia who had allegedly visited the Hells Angels Mesa Clubhouse, offended her hosts, been beaten then thrown into a car trunk and murdered in the desert outside town. In an attempt to conceal her identity her murderers are said to have tried to behead her and gruesomely failed.

The upshot was a largely unsuccessful, law enforcement drama called Operation Black Biscuit. Dobyns and other amateur thespians posed as a chapter of the Solo Angeles CM, a motorcycle club with chapters in southern California and northern Baja Mexico. He ingratiated himself to various Hells Angels in Arizona, California and Nevada; hung around the club; bought and sold suspicious amounts of guns and drugs; prospected with the Skull Valley charter; pretended to murder a Mongol in Mexico; and, in 2003, he had fifty of his new best friends arrested.

The case was trumpeted as a long sought victory of good over evil and Dobyns was routinely described as a “hero” and a “super agent.” Dobyns himself has said that after Black Biscuit he became ATF’s “golden boy.” By 2006, three years after the investigation ended – after about three years of revisionist fermentation – ATF friendly accounts of Dobyns’ adventures had begun to percolate into American mass media.

The Legend Of Agent Jay

Nobody wants to tell me who invented the legend of Agent Jay Dobyns. Either Dobyns pushed himself into the national spotlight or the ATF pulled him. Work on the first two books about his adventures actually started in 2004.

The first, substantial, written account of Black Biscuit took up about 220 pages of a book titled Angels of Death by Sher and William Marsden. The book was published in 2006. Sher has cordial relations with the ATF and he appears to have had access to official ATF documents that have never been made public. Numerous ATF Agents including Dobyns, Kozlowski and Los Angeles Special Agent John Ciccone are quoted extensively in Angels of Death. The book is unsourced and not footnoted but it does acknowledge: “Tom Mangan of the ATF.” In the same way that I know that Droban’s quote was too good to be true I also know that Sher and Marsden’s book could not have been written and published without the enthusiastic cooperation of the ATF.

The second written account was Droban’s. She is a former Maricopa County Deputy Attorney who has parlayed her book into a part time career as a biker authority. She describes herself as “the female Woodward and Bernstein.” Her publicity photo shows her wearing jeans and a black, leather jacket. And, her expose of the Pagans Motorcycle Club, titled Age of Fire, will be published this year by St. Martin’s Press.

The Legend Continues

Droban has publically stated that she was asked by “a mutual friend” in 2004 if she “would be interested in writing about the ATF sting against the Hells Angels, code named, Operation Black Biscuit. I was familiar with the case,” she says, “since it had received some national coverage on America’s Most Wanted, and I knew several of the participants involved in the investigation.”

But she refuses to tell me who the mutual friend was, and who his friends were, and who she knew inside the investigation. I am just some guy. I go by a funny nickname. Worst of all I am rude. I demand to know how much of her account “was fed to you by the ATF?”

She replies that her “material came from the horses’ mouths and not the horses’ asses if you get my drift? I researched the old fashioned way, getting in the trenches, interviewing the players, reviewing highly sensitive and confidential material. I can’t reveal how I got my hands on that.”

Which leaves me no choice but to infer that she also had the enthusiastic cooperation of the ATF. She quotes numerous ATF sources, describes various locations and brags that she had private access to “highly sensitive and confidential,” official ATF documents. So I guess her answer to my question is yes: Her account was fed to her by the ATF. Which means that the ATF was pushing Dobyns into the spotlight. Which like everything about Jay Dobyns might be true or it might be false.

Plot Point One

The business end of the horse, you pick the end, claims the Bureau did not help Droban at all. “Running with the Devil,” Jay Dobyns tells me, “was written by someone with no access to the biker world and relied exclusively on her interpretation of public documents. I think she did okay. Her book was viewed as a success but she got a lot of the story wrong.”

So I go back to trying to decide if Dobyns was pushed or pulled into celebrity.

I decide to call both heads and tails. By November 2006, around the time his supervisor was threatening to transfer him to “a postage stamp in the middle of nowhere,” both Dobyns and the ATF had invested so much effort into making him look like a war hero that there was no turning back. “Jay Dobyns is a good guy” was practically a hit song.

“We reminded ourselves every day when we went out that we’re the good guys, they’re the bad guys,” Dobyns told Sher. “We’re pretending, they’re believing.” That pronouncement stumps me for about a full day. Dobyns seems to like to say things like that. I think Dobyns wants us all to believe that he has mastered the miracle of the immaculate perception. And, when we get confused if we just listen to him we will all come out of it okay.

Suits And Settlements

After the threat reported by Agent Hebert, after the threatened transfer to Guam, Dobyns sued the ATF. He complained that the Bureau had botched his first transfer to Santa Maria; that the ATF had not taken the threats against him as seriously as it should have; that he and his family had been endangered by a giant, stupid bureaucracy; and that somebody with deep pockets owed him big time for what he had had to endure.

Eventually the ATF gave in and, if I have read the settlement correctly, the Bureau agreed to give Dobyns and his lawyer $373,000 if he would just shut up. I might have missed something but I think the deal was: “Here is a third of a million dollars now shut up.” First the ATF wanted Dobyns to be famous. Then they paid him $373.000 of public money to stop being famous. That stumps me, too.

The settlement was agreed upon in September 2007 but it did not settle anything. The ATF was late on its payments and subjected Dobyns to “internal affairs investigations … on over eleven different occasions.” Dobyns did not get along with his supervisors in Los Angeles, and eventually he moved back to Tucson where, he said, his enemies were.


In August 2008 somebody set fire to Dobyns’ house. The fire apparently caused about $30,000 damage although in some accounts it caused ten times that amount. Dobyns asserts that his insurance company, State Farm, determined the destruction to his home and contents “to be a near total loss.”

Someone had tossed a small amount of flammable liquid on Dobyns back porch and set a match. Dobyns was “verifiably out of town” at the time. His cell phone was turned on so its location was traceable and the phone proved that at the time of the fire Dobyns was actually travelling away from Tucson. At least his phone was taking a trip. But, his wife and children were home and they were forced out into the night dressed only for bed.

A “senior ATF Phoenix supervisor” named Dobyns as a suspect in the arson. Dobyns has called that accusation a “malicious reprisal.”

The more of these documented accusations and counteraccusations I read through the more lost I become.

Not The Angels

Many of Dobyns defenders have assumed that the fire was set by members or friends of the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club. For example, last July a flamboyantly gay dust bunny named Shepard Smith greeted Dobyns to his Fox News show with:

“Jay Dobyns joins us now live and we’re not going to tell you where he is. Jay, thanks for being with us. The Hells Angels burned down your house with your family inside. Fortunately they, uh, escaped. They put a contract on your head.”

Dobyns did not bother to correct Smith. Maybe he was just paralyzed with fear that at any moment Shepard Smith might also actually burst into flames, but when I watch the interview I get the impression that Dobyns really wants the world to think the Angels did it. Maybe that is just me.

When I asked him about the putative connection between the fire and the motorcycle club Dobyns answered as if that connection was all my idea. “I have never said to anyone publicly or privately that the Hells Angels burned my house down,” Dobyns told me. “Find where I have. I have said that ATF let someone get away with it and in the process also get away with attempting to murder my family. Believe it or not but my beef is not with the Hells Angels. They are in my rear view mirror. My beef is with ATF.”

I stand corrected.

In September 2009, less than a month after the fire, Dobyns sued the ATF again for slightly more than $4 million. He wanted $1.6 million to compensate him for his “suffering;” $600 thousand to compensate his wife and children for their “suffering;” $200 thousand for his lawyer; and he also asked for ten years pay at the rate of $185,000 per year.

The ATF seemed to think that Dobyns had gone crazy. Really, really crazy. “Crazy for feeling so lonely…crazy for feeling so blue…crazy for trying and crazy for crying.”

Crazy Or Sane

Public documents assert that an ATF supervisor “stated in front of multiple witnesses on multiple occasions” that “Dobyns is mentally unfit for duty,” and “Dobyns is broken.” The supervisor has been quoted as saying, “it is my duty to see that Dobyns is removed from…this agency.” Allegedly, an ATF Internal Affairs Investigator classified Dobyns as “certifiable,” by which he meant crazy.

The ATF retained a psychiatrist named Daniel Blumberg who allegedly betrayed his conclusions about Dobyns’ mental health to ATF officials after “privileged and confidential sessions with Dobyns.” According to Dobyns, the psychiatrist later apologized and explained that he had been “coerced and extorted” into disclosing the “privileged information” out of “fear that he would lose his ATF-funded retainer contract.”

Dobyns accused the ATF of attempting to publish, release and expose his “medical records to defame, intimidate and coerce” him. And, according to Dobyns, these attempts to discredit him as crazy began in the autumn of 2006, the season when all the world was being told he was a hero.

Dobyns has formally accused the “senior Los Angeles ATF supervisor,” whose name is John Torres, of trying to “defame Dobyns to his peers and other law enforcement agencies outside of ATF. The Los Angeles supervisor enlisted the support of ATF supervisors in Chicago and Seattle to obstruct justice by defaming Dobyns as a government witness. The Los Angeles supervisor also attempted to recruit ATF attorneys into his defamation scheme.”

Apparently, I am the only person left on the planet who has not seen Dobyns’ psychological evaluation so I ask Dobyns for his side of it.

“No shrink ever judged me crazy,” he says. “ATF’s psyche Doctor did a post case analysis of me. His conclusions were that I was fine. Those conclusions remained private and protected. Some ATF bosses who wanted to burn me down thought there might be a smoking gun there. They extorted my medical records from the Doctor hoping to establish their argument. But, I got the last laugh because when they got them, the Doctor’s opinion was that I was healthy.”

Really, Really, Really Completely Sane

All of this argument over Dobyns’ sanity was going on as he was being portrayed as the “good guy” who had infiltrated and justifiably betrayed the “bad guys,” the Hells Angels. I impulsively jump to the conclusion that Dobyns is being scapegoated by the ATF for the failed prosecution of the case he investigated.

That is what I do. I ask rude questions and I jump to unfounded conclusions. I ask Dobyns, “Are you mentally and emotionally fit?”

Dobyns replies, “Maybe. Going through what I have and am going through changes a person. In my case probably for the worse. You lose faith in people in general. You question whether or not people you trusted really understand loyalty. I am mentally strong. I think that fits better. My will is undefeatable and resilient. Mentally…emotionally fit? Yes, but with lots of battle damage.”

That response is my second favorite Jay Dobyns’ quote of all time. I put that one on a post-it note on the upper right hand corner of my computer screen. I ask Jay Dobyns if he is sane and he tells me, “Maybe.”

I think that is the most honest thing Dobyns has said in years. I also think it is interesting that Dobyns greatest fear seems to be that he will be betrayed.

Donnie Brasco

For the last twelve or thirteen months I have been trying to get a handle on the psychology of undercover cops in general and the ATF agents who infiltrate motorcycle clubs in particular. And, the conclusion I have jumped to about that is that most of these guys are like whores who start cumming with their customers. When that happens they have to get out. Motorcycle clubs are very overpowering social constructions and it is hard to be an undercover in a club.

The model has always been Donnie Brasco – this sort of tortured guy who has to live in two worlds and then betray one of them. And then he is betrayed in turn by the world he chooses. “Donnie Brasco” is itself a fiction -a story, something very different from everyday life- but sometimes the only way people can make sense of their lives is by telling a story; by making up a lie that is truer than true.

In the aftermath of motorcycle club investigations this Donnie Brasco story gets retold over and over: In the Warlocks case, in Operation Ivan, in Black Biscuit and I can see it already in Operation Black Rain. Stephen Martin and Billy Queen both seem to have seen themselves as Donnie Brasco. I think Jay Dobyns became the flavor of Donnie Brasco that emphasizes the hero’s own betrayal.

I think with under cover cops the line between fiction and reality becomes very confused. I also think that most of the story telling that goes on after these investigations, especially the story telling that went on after Black Biscuit, is a way of redrawing lines that the investigation itself erased: The lines between good and bad and right and wrong and true and false and legal and illegal and especially the lines between loyalty and betrayal.

Dobyns told Sher that he had to remind himself everyday who was good and who was bad, who was pretending and who was not. He had to tell himself to know.

At the conclusion of Black Biscuit Dobyns killed a Mongol for his new club brothers. It was a make believe killing and the victim was a make believe Mongol but also Dobyns was a make believe Hells Angel. The staged murder was entirely Dobyns own invention. Nobody in the ATF told him to do it. And I think that was almost certainly the moment Dobyns started cumming with his customers. You do not exactly have to be Sigmund Freud to understand the real power of symbolic acts.

The Story With A Thousand Titles

A very important authority named Joseph Campbell is most importantly remembered for his description of a story he called the monomyth: “A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder,” Campbell wrote. “Fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won.”

“From 2001 to 2003 Dobyns led an undercover ATF investigation that targeted the Hells Angels,” an authorized version of the Jay Dobyns’ story asserts. “The investigation was entitled Operation Black Biscuit. Dobyns’ work led to an unprecedented, first-ever police infiltration of the Hells Angels in the Hells Angels’ (then) fifty-five year history. Numerous search and arrest warrants supplemented the federal indictment of sixteen or more Hells Angels members for, inter alia, violation of the RICO laws. In order to best accomplish this mission, Dobyns’ undercover role forced him to become immersed in the outlaw biker culture and lifestyle.”

The problem with Dobyns’ story is that it is really two stories trying to be one. The trouble with Joseph Campbell’s monomyth is that it tries to weld two myths into one.

The story that Jay Dobyns really has to tell is the one about how his “undercover role forced him to become immersed in the outlaw biker culture and lifestyle.” It could be a good story. Nine years after the invention of the motorcycle, Stephen Crane wrote a few lines that I think describes how under cover cops get seduced by the outlaw world.

I stood upon a high place,
And saw, below, many devils
Running, leaping,
and carousing in sin.
One looked up, grinning,
And said, “Comrade! Brother!”

But Dobyns has never told that story and he probably never will because the story the ATF wants told is the one about how fabulous forces were encountered and a decisive victory was won.

Whether Kerrie Droban knows anything or not, at least she gets it. She knows why publishers buy books. Droban frankly acknowledges that what she is selling is “a voyeuristic view of life inside the Hells Angels.”

No Angel

Four months after his house was torched, three months after he sued the ATF again, Dobyns published his own account of his “harrowing undercover journey to the inner circle of the Hells Angels.”

No Angel, published by Crown in 2009, was actually sold the same year Droban’s book was published. Dobyns’ book, co-written by a Nils Johnson-Shelton, was originally titled Almost Angels: The True Story of the First Cop to Infiltrate the Hells Angels-the World’s Most Infamous and Impenetrable Motorcycle Gang. But the title was changed partly because Almost Angels was also the title of a 1962 Disney documentary about the Vienna Boy’s Choir and mostly because anybody who might buy the book would already know who the Hells Angels are.

What Dobyns had to sell was a guided tour of the outlaw world. The story the ATF wanted was about a “decisive victory.” Dobyns and Johnson-Shelton obviously did their best to write the ATF the valentine it demanded and the result is a really shallow and mendacious book. A year ago, after the book came out, I called Dobyns the “Shameless Jackass of the Year.”

That is how I roll. I ask a few rude questions, jump to a few facile conclusions, call Dobyns a shameless jackass and then I am perfectly satisfied to pat myself on the back. Only, Dobyns refuses to let me off that easy.

“I don’t disagree with your assessments of me, my work or my book,” he writes me. “There are elements of the story not told, lots of them. There are lawyers involved and I was not permitted to discuss anything that I knew to be true but could not prove in a courtroom.”

“When you gain someone’s trust and loyalty all with the pre-determined conclusion to betray it,” Dobyns tells me another time, “you are going to make enemies and create vendettas. In the case of the outlaw world those hatreds are heightened because it is a world that relies on trust and loyalty. I am stupid. I did make mistakes, lots of them. I don’t apologize for them to anyone but my family but of course there are lots of things I would do differently if I did it again. But, bottom line, is that I would do it again. You don’t have to understand.”

Dobyns stubbornly refuses to tell the story I think he should have told. He is determined to stick to the story he thinks the ATF wants him to tell. He was a “good guy.” He was not a “bad guy.” I think those are the only two lines he has left on his map. I don’t think he wrote his book because he wants to get rich or because he wants to become a successful author but because he wants everybody who reads it to agree with him about who he is. I don’t think he is suing the ATF for money. He is suing the ATF to make the Bureau agree with him.

I think eight years after the brawl at Harrah’s the lines all have to be where Jay Dobyns says they are because if they are not then he is lost.

The Postscript

Three weeks ago, on January 31st, the ATF sued Dobyns for an “accounting, restitution, and disgorgement of all money received, or to be received, by Mr. Dobyns” from his book No Angel and from “an agreement with 20th Century Fox regarding the sale of rights to the book for purposes of making a motion picture.”

“After the conclusion of Operation Black Biscuit,” the lawsuit self-righteously complains, “Mr. Dobyns sold the story of his official duties for his own private gain.”

I cannot read this 35 page document without both laughing out loud and grunting in amazement. Although, in the last year, I have gotten very sick of writing about Dobyns I feel obliged to report this strange twist. I ask him to comment on the countersuit and he refuses, petulantly. He tells me he can’t trust me and that is absolutely, purely Jay Dobyns.

We have a little exchange. I insult him and I insult his book. He writes back to tell me how much he is looking forward to reading a book I am writing about the Mongols case. And, that is also absolutely, purely Jay Dobyns.

I really don’t quite know what to make of this guy. Sometimes we are Wiley Coyote and Ralph the Watch Dog. Other times we are Wiley Coyote and Ralph the Watch Dog on our lunch break. We exchange a few words about the book business.

“I would not be discouraged to write your book by some 5th Avenue pogue whose biggest risk in life has been to decide how much of his 401k to take out to buy his yacht,” Dobyns encourages me. It is an entirely unsolicited kindness. It is the last word I have from him before I sit down to write this.

Every once in a while I have to look up at the top left corner of my computer lest I too become lost. “I know I can get over on people,” Dobyns brags.

Everybody, apparently, except the ATF.

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88 Responses to “The Agent Who Became Lost”

  1. Rich Says:

    It breaks my heart, the thought of true to heart, honorable men, who’ve sacrificed everything, their own comfort and peace of mind at times, men who stand firm to a code of honor that is likely adhered to better than any other group, to have their exposed hearts stepped on by some attention seeking, egocentric puppet. An ATF poster boy who was molded in their basement, who’s zeal was harnessed and put to use like a wrench and then was discarded by a gang of wayward wannabe heros, dishonorable thugs that comprise the ATF. A man without honor will be deemed useless in the end.

  2. Frequent Flyer Says:

    “Going through what I have and am going through changes a person. In my case probably for the worse. You lose faith in people in general. You question whether or not people you trusted really understand loyalty.” jAY dobYNs

  3. John Says:

    What a waste of air.

  4. John Says:

    I have either been in a motorcycle club or around one most of my life. This guy is just a strange bird an I hope he rots away some place far away from me.

  5. sled tramp Says:

    Jay…Jayyyy…Go away…PALLEEEEESE don’t come back some other day….

  6. Bud Says:


    I dont really have anything to add here but for some wierd reason I felt it inappropriate for this thread to end with 81 comments.


  7. Rebel Says:

    Dear Big V,

    Jay Anthony Dobyns v. The United States, Case 1:08-cv-00700-FMA Document 35 Filed 01/29/10, DEFENDANT’S ANSWER, AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES, AND COUNTERCLAIMS, pages 29 and following, paragraphs 153 through 186 and PRAYER FOR RELIEF on page 33. The Judge is Francis M. Allegra.

    Seek and ye shall find.

    your pal,

  8. Rebel Says:

    Dear prettybitch,

    This is too great.


  9. prettybitch Says:

    seems as if the ATF is running out of things to do…..

  10. BigV Says:

    One part to the ugly little lover’s quarrel:

    I can’t find the ATF suing Dobyns for the movie and book revenues documentation online, but I’ll keep looking.

  11. Jabba Says:

    Sled > That was fucking brilliant, LMFAO.

    Much respect.


  12. not-a-hippie Says:

    sled, yer one sick cookie–lol.

    Hey, I remember the days when the club was into film making.

  13. sled tramp Says:

    Dear Rebel,
    you of course, are correct.I’m overreacting.Silly,silly me…your comment brings back another situation many,many years ago that also left me confused.Way back sometime, my brothers and I were into the amateur film biz.One of my brothers had found this sweet young thing on the street in need of a meal and being the generous sort, brought her to the house.(He did this frequntly.He was a very kind soul).She was nice enough to consent to helping us out with a part in a movie.Well, she plumb wore out the guy we’d lined up for her (ahhhh, the energy of youth) and always the helpful fellas my brothers were, they were helping to satiate her needs.
    Which apparently, were substantial.
    Well, in her enthusiasm, she became rather loud.
    As in the Richter Scale.
    I heard a knock on the door and opening it, found myself facing a couple of Jehovah Witnesses.
    They seemed like nice folks so I invited them in.I offered them a seat and I sat down with who I THOUGHT were my new friends.Well, ol’ whatshername was going to town and in groups of three, my brothers were doing their absolute best trying to help her achieve her goal.We were always the helpful types you know.
    The noises (mostly almost human) were coming through the bedroom door in increasing volume and my new pals were starting to fidget.In an effort to relax them, my brother Shiny came walking over and took the doob out of his mouth and kindly offered it to the Jehovahs. “Here…kick back” or something to that effect.By this time, I think the bed was breaking because it got reaalllll loud.
    And Rebel? you know what those Jehovahs did? After I invited thm into our house? Why, they up and fled. I mean they just fuckin’ RAN!
    I think I’m just going to try to ignore potential friends.It’s just not worth the heartbreak.Thank you for your kind note though.
    Your Pal,
    sled tramp

  14. Rebel Says:

    Dear sled tramp,

    Oh man, those guys just wanted to race, man! Have a little fun. Happens to me all the time.

    Just the other day I was on Rosecrans Boulevard in Compton. Pulled up next to a brother in a low rider. We looked at each other. I could tell he liked me. He liked me so much he turned up his fucking rap so I could hear it better over the sound of my bike. I could tell he liked my bike, too. The way he kept looking over. So I sort of opened the throttle so he could hear it better. Then the light changed and we just sort of spontaneously started to race. It was fun. He was pretty good. I know I was doing better than 80 before I lost him in traffic. I can split lanes but he had to slow down.

    Just another sunny day. I love el lay.

    That’s all those guys wanted. They were just funnin’. But you wouldn’t play.

    Oh? You think they were trying to escape you? Why would they want to do that?

    your pal,

  15. Jabba Says:

    Can’t help but feel I kind of dropped somebody in the shit back there somewhere.

    My old dad, and my uncle (an old time biker if ever there was one), used to say to me… “You speak as you find.”

    I have a line of my own, which may be a quote from somewhere I can’t remember, “Respect is that which has to be given or earned in order to be received.”

    As a result, I say what’s on my mind, and what I believe to be true. Sometimes gets me in a lot of hsit.

    I’ll say it again, I’ve never met a cop, or ex-cop, I wouldn’t gladly put out of my misery.

    Never met you GW, but if the words are anything to go by (and you really have hung up your badge), you were straight-up from the start
    and haven’t written anything I can’t respect.

    You’ve earned one beer at least.

    My apologies if I opened a can of worms back there.


  16. sled tramp Says:

    Dear Jay,
    Can I call ya Jay? no matter…Here’s my beef Jay…I’m laying this squarely upon your book as apparently everyone but me has read it.
    Coming home tonight,I found myself at the only light in town.There came upon me, a large group of Harleys.Full face and H-D know the type.Anyways, I did a “Whadup” nod, smiling through my apes as they passed.Well, Jay? Bud? They, to..a..rider, did a double take at me in my K-D’s and Gandolph beard and hit it.And I mean they went through the gears…
    Now I consider myself just good ol’ church folk. You know Jay,regular grade scooter trash.I’m always happy to give a shout out to my fellow donorcyclists. After all, we’s all bros of the road right (uh huh…..yeeeeahhhh….). anyways Jay (can I call ya Jay?), I was stunned.STUNNED Jay.These fellow travelers did not embrace me as one of them.Rather, I believe upon reflection that they thought that they’d stumbled upon the heathen.

    I felt so alone.
    It was a sad,sad moment I won’t soon forget. I may even need a support group.
    And Jay? It’s your fault.You’ve turned those type of people against us,Like that nice couple of obvious means that was trying to move away from me at the stealership the other day.Well, OK…his old lady was highly lickable but still….
    Anyways, PLEASE don’t write anymore books OK? and those seminars? Man, I don’t need the grief…
    Your Pal,
    sled tramp

  17. BigV Says:

    Sled Tramp said it best. I have no use for cops. Or psychologists. But in the case of GW and SVD- I guess I make an exception.

  18. Goldsboro Williams Says:


    Cool. Then we can get back to making fun of Dobyns.


  19. sled tramp Says:

    I hate cops.I fucking hate any asshole piece of shit eating cop out there I’ve ever dealt with.I can’t count the times I’ve wanted to disarm a hiding behind his badge son of a bitch and jam his piece up his faggot loving ass just for giggles.Slimey, cocksucking, cumsack licking motherfuckers.

    But you’re OK. You were straight up with us when you came through the playground gate.You hung your badge up at the door and you’ve gone on record as stating your lack of respect for many of your working peers.I have no problem with your posts whatsoever. But your fellow sophisticates can burn in fucking hell cause they’re as low as a pediphile.
    sled tramp

  20. not-a-hippie Says:


    Wow, that’s deep.

    If it matters, I’ve always seen the street cop as just that. Hey, when I was bleeding out in that parking lot, it was a street cop that kicked me in the ribs (just kidding).

    Countless fights when the cop told us to go home and no report was written.

    I’ve yet to get a ticket on a bike—cars and trucks plenty—but a warning only on my bikes.

    I’ve looked down the wrong end of a.r. barrel held by a swat deputy (back up for a fed team) when I was buck naked and it was 6-fucking-a.m. You coulda knocked…..

    Most people I know don’t think about youse guys too much, but the federals are a different story. The feds are really pushing the limits in many directions. We all seen this coming as far back as the late 60s and its gotten worse.

    So the street cop will take the heat, again, for what the feds are doing.

    Good luck.

  21. Big Bagel Says:

    Goldsboro Williams, if you wanted people to like you you should have been a fireman not a cop. Even the Republican, right wing, law and order types who say they love cops really hate them. I think most cops realize this. I certainly do.

    I don’t think you and 10Guage are going to be buddies. I’m sorry to break it to you.

  22. Goldsboro Williams Says:

    10Guage, DocB and others:

    I understand that the site is primarily for guys in clubs, and I do appreciate being allowed to be up front with who I am, and still being able to post and converse with you all. I understand that a lot of people have a lot of distrust and downright hatred to all things LEO, and believe me, I understand. I’m not too fond of most of them myself.

    If I say anything out of line, or if you feel I need to re-post my sordid past occasionally, just tell me, and I will attempt to fix my screw up just to avoid any confusion or unnecessary bad feelings. Granted, because I told the truth many of you would not piss on me if I was on fire, but I figured if I was going to post it would be better to be straight with you.

    Along those lines I will tell you that I have never knowingly arrested a biker. Period. I started when cops still carried revolvers, and when they had to stand up for inspection each day. We were taught to call people “sir” and “ma’am,” even if we had to lock them up. I never bought into the tv drama stereo types, and to this day I really believe that cops should walk a beat and personally known and respect the people in his district. That way he can be a problem solver without destroying lives. And I do not believe that clubs should be prosecuted just for being clubs. I’m a big believer in liberty, and I don’t think the dog catcher, the cop, or the politicians need to be intruding in other people’s lives.

    10Guage, if you can live with that, then please feel free to discuss things with me. If not, I will abide by your expressed desires and not attempt to converse with you. ‘Nuff said.



  23. Swampy Says:

    Fuck Jay Dobyns, he made his own “rose thorn bed” now he can lie down in it! Billy “Queer” too!

  24. DocB Says:


    It’s true, one of the strengths in this site is it’s diverstiy. It’s equally true that the guys that keep it real are the guys with day to day club experience. When things start floating off into cyber space it’s usually a club guy that brings it back down to earth for a reality check. Just like real life. I’d hate to loose any of those guys.


  25. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    Dear Mikonos:

    You’ll have to ask the Professor. Probably best to ask after he’s been on a ride.

    Dear 10Guage:

    Don’t go. As you pointed out, one strength of the place is the diversity of posters; for all the rest of us, it is better that we have your principled voice expressed than have you “fade into the abyss”. It’s true what you say about the internet; for all any of us know we could all be the proverbial 14 year olds typing in our parent’s basements. At a certain point you have to suspend disbelief and assume that people are mostly who they say they are. In my own profession (medicine/psychiatry) I have to contend with this all the time–sometimes with potentially grave consequences. Rebel seems to be pretty good at spotting and calling out trolls, as do several other veteran posters on the site, so maybe trust in the community helps too.

    I know better than to try to convince you to give an LEO a pass, but it might be helpful if you went back and read GW’s early posts and let him convince you. Since he posted on some of the first discussions in which I posted, it might be easier for me to remeber where to find them than for you to find them by random search; if you give me the go ahead, I’d be happy to direct you to them.

    Anyhow, stay or go as you see fit, but I really do hope you stay.

    Square Verbose Doc

  26. Mikonos Says:

    SVB, dont feel bad I’m behind as well. Wondering if the professor will allow substitution of Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy for any others on the reading list? Been wanting to read that for awhile.

  27. Goldsboro Williams Says:


    Obviously I unintentionally pissed you off. Sorry about that, but I have never made any secret about my background. And as far as you not caring about my perspective, well, this is still America. Do as you please.

    My ‘checking’ was simply looking up the things you described and told me to look up. That was enough to sway my opinion as to the veracity of your comments. I’m a fairly simple fellow, and I have always tended to think that the attitude against bikers was an individual, or at most, a group-think thing, fed by personal desires for money and lifestyle. Although I still believe that this accounts for a lot of the animosity towards bike clubs, now I am also inclined to think that maybe bikers are just a convenient boogeyman (as you said) for the various government agencies to use. I still believe that individuals have to make the choice to embrace that wrong-headed idea or not though.

    Like I said, I’m simple.

    I still do not know of anyone or any institution that thinks of bikers as “long haired, dirty, rapist, drug shooting, hippy bums,” as you put it. Yes, I did find evidence that the government considers 1% clubs to be criminal organizations, and to be organizations designed primarily around the drug trade, and that they government is out to essentially dismantle clubs, but this is an attitude that I personally do not share, nor have I ever hung around people that held those attitudes or beliefs. I have met individuals who spouted such nonsense, but I have met people who also believe that aliens live among us, so I usually don’t give a lot of credence to wild claims. I just smile, nod my head, and move on when I think that someone is “out there.”

    I obviously knew that the government has tried to prosecute certain clubs repeatedly, but again, I was always looking at it as a result of individual actions (scum bag CI’s, lazy UC’s, self-aggrandizing politicians, etc.) and not as a result of any official policy.

    You Sir, can accuse me of being stupid or naive I guess, but hardly dishonest or disrespectful. A difference of opinion (followed by my acquiescence to part of your viewpoint) does not constitute me trying to pull any type of fast one.

    10Guage, I mean you no harm, and no disrespect. I started my first post on this site by saying who I was, and by giving my background. I did this because I did not want to have anyone thinking I was anything but what I am, or that I was some type of fake biker just here to spy or to live vicariously through others.

    I have enjoyed reading your opinions, and I have no issue with discussing things with you. If you want to paint me with the wide brush and stop conversing, well, that is on you. As for me, I continue to judge each man by their actions and character, and not by the badge or set of colors they happen to be sporting. If you want to continue to swap opinions, then that is great. If you want to tell me to fuck off, well, that is not so great but hey, my feelings won’t be hurt too bad. I’m not looking to swap spit with anyone here, only ideas and opinions.


    PS For the record, a “symbiotic” relationship does not have to be one that is mutually beneficial. My dictionary says that it normally is, but that it can also simply be a relationship between two dissimilar organisms, which is why I clarified my original comment by adding “one-sided” to it. But I digress.

  28. DOCB Says:

    He told us he was a cop the first time he posted and mentioned it a few other times. You and I might not agree with him, or give a shit about what he thinks, but he was straight up about being a cop.


  29. 10Guage Says:

    One of the things that I don’t like about the internet and one of the things that kept me from it is you never know who your rubbin elbows with. You see even in the joint I have a better ability to judge someone’s character because I can read their paperwork, read their face, and talk to my people. Here that is obviously impossible and apparently I need to pay better attention.

    I didn’t know you were a cop. I rarely take back what I say, I am a man who lives with the consequences of his actions, but considering you made no mention of your law enforcement association when responding to my post I will make an exception. Shame on me. At least glazed donut made reference to his slanted and admittedly one-sided view. I don’t make a habit out of talking to cops but I figured his bullshit comment deserved a well put Fuck You!

    I respect Rebel for his time and energy creating this site. It is a unique place were Rubs, straits, doctors, outlaws, independents, lone wolf, clubbers, patch holders, 1%ers and even law enforcement are welcome to offer their opinions, comments, and perspectives on the issues of the day. This type of communication is in my opinion one of the keys to keeping the life we love alive. It’s rather ironic though as another equally important piece of the puzzle is silence. However, right now we are talking about communication and this site in particular. Rebel has us all talking and this helps educate the straits that we are in fact not the boogeyman we have been portrayed to be. It forces them to realize that the scary men they see passing their comfy Volvo on the highway actually have families. Often times they are loving fathers, brothers, husbands; good men, honest men. It helps clubs stay abreast of important legal issues that affect us all. It offers neutral ground for clubs to discuss issues and even misunderstandings. It also has served to expose dirty cops like T-Doggy, their petty ways, and sick thoughts. You see so even the liars here play their part.

    Now as for you I couldn’t give two shits about your perspective. I don’t know what you did to, “do some checking” but if you were a cop for two days you know there has been an organized attempt by the government to quell our lifestyle. We are despised as long haired, dirty, rapist, drug shooting, hippy bums. These thoughts are held by the police, FBI, ATF, DA, AG, congress men and senators as is evident by the information I have already quoted, policies, and general attitude. I can’t even imagine the stories you have heard. But it is real. I live it. You know it. And for you to pretend it doesn’t exist is not only dishonest, it is disrespectful. And it pisses me off to the point that it is not productive and certainly will taint those lines of communication.

    Me I am too far gone. Too much water under the bridge. So rather than being contrary for the sake of being contrary, I will just fade back into the internet abyss. I will however continue to read and tell every righteous brother I can about this place, and possibly even post again when I know who the fuck I am talking to.

  30. Jabba Says:

    Bribery already and we haven’t even met…

    You know my price though.

    One day I’ll ride south from the frozen wastes (another six centimetres of that white shit promised for tonight). If and when, you’d also be the first ex-cop to ever get a drink out of me.


  31. Goldsboro Williams Says:


    Well, if and when we do ever meet, hopefully I will prove myself worthy of being the exception to the rule, and you won’t have to put me out of your misery…


    PS There’s cold beer in it for you if I survive our first meeting!

  32. Jabba Says:

    I would really like to be so open-minded that I could treat some ex-cop’s, retarded view on his/her past actions, as though they were fit for anything other than wiping my ass on. But I’ve never yet met a cop that I wouldn’t as gladly put out of my misery, as I would wipe shit from my boots.

    GW – you write a lot of sense of here, but I don’t know you and didn’t know you as a cop. Respect for what I’ve seen here.

    Stood in front of Dobbo’s book yesterday. Couldn’t bring myself to buy it. I’ve read a lot of his web site now, that was more than bad enough.

    Reading the twisted shit these people come out with, the lies and the pathetic rationalising of tactics, that undermine everything a free society is founded on, just makes me so fucking mad I start in on the kick-bag hanging in the garage and the Jack Daniel’s in the kitchen.

    Man oh man, what a fucked up world.

    Rebel – no shit, a fucking LIFE COACH!!!!


  33. YYZ Skinhead Says:

    If anyone wants to read the books by various rats and hacks and/or follow the adventures of Dobyns, Kozlowski, Ciccone et al without paying them a penny, either get them from a library, or get them USED (not NEW) from Amazon like I do.

    Obviously I would buy Sonny Barger’s and Tobie Levingston’s books new because they are history books written by real bikers and their respective authors deserve the royalties.

    YYZ Skinhead

  34. Damon Says:

    SV Doc

    Thanks for that. Time is one thing I have enough of.


  35. 10guage Says:

    Hey no problem I appreciate reading (almost)everybody’s perspective…But for the record, a “symbiotic” relationship, is one that is mutually beneficial… but I digress

  36. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    “Welcome to Dr. Rebel’s Advanced Colloquium on Postmodern Themes on the Motorcycle Outlaw Frontier. Required readings for November include Frontier Violence: Another Look by W. Eugene Hollon; All the essays in Richard White’s “It’s Your Misfortune And None of My Own:” A New History of the American West; and, of course, Richard Slotkin’s so swell trilogy on the myth of the frontier in America comprising the volumes Regeneration Through Violence, The Fatal Environment and Gunfighter Nation.”

    Don’t anyone tell the Professor, but I have to admit that while I was able to sort of scan articles about and by each of these authors to get the general idea, I’ve not had the chance to read these books yet. Some people want freedom; at this point, I’d settle for time.
    Plus, my tendency with assigned reading lists is to come back to them after I’ve wandered around on my own for a while.


  37. Goldsboro Williams Says:

    Luckily I’ve never claimed to be smart… just opinionated!

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