Feds Want Pagans Patch

Sat, Dec 19, 2009

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Feds Want Pagans Patch

Two more plea deals in the federal case against the Pagans Motorcycle Club were filed yesterday. One of the plea deals was signed by former Pagans National Vice President Floyd B. “Jesse” Moore. And, that was the least of the news about this case dumped into the public record on the Friday afternoon before Christmas.

Buried on page 13 of Moore’s 18 page confession is a formal statement of the government’s intent to seek the forfeiture of:

“The trade-name, trade-mark and/or service-mark “PAGAN’S” (Registration No. 2514194) and related logo/design (Registration No. 2619538), issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office to Floyd B. Moore, Individual Registrant, located and doing business at 2029 Pennsylvania Avenue, St. Albans, West Virginia, 25177, purportedly for use in interstate commerce or such other commerce as may be regulated by Congress, together with any and all common law rights of Floyd B. Moore and/or the Pagan’s Motorcycle Club (sic) and any of its members to the usage of such image and name and, further, together with any and all associated good will and reputation.”

Feds Not Einstein

Albert Einstein, the wild haired genius who died in 1955, once defined insanity as “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” By Einstein’s definition, the United States Department of Justice is now insane. Much more learned and punctilious prosecutors just tried this same thing in the Mongols case and a Federal District Judge in Los Angeles named Florence-Marie Cooper seemed genuinely insulted that the Justice Department should try to sneak that one past her.

In two rulings, on July 31st and August 6th, Judge Cooper ruled that the patch worn by the Mongols Motorcycle Club is a “collective membership mark” that cannot be owned by any individual patch holder. The government’s argument in the Mongols case, US versus Cavazos, was that the Mongols Club President, Ruben “Doc” Cavazos, “owned” the Mongols trademarks and had agreed to forfeit them to the Department of Justice. The government’s argument in the Pagans case is that Floyd B. “Jesse” Moore owns the Pagans trademarks so the government can steal them from him.

Rivera Ruling

Ruling in the case Ramon Rivera versus Ronnie A. Carter, Acting Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF); John A. Torres, Special Agent in Charge, ATF Los Angeles Field Division; and Eric H. Holder, United States Attorney General Judge Cooper wrote: “Even if the Court were to accept the Government’s evidence that Ruben Cavazos controlled the use of the mark during his tenure as National President there is no support for the notion that a defendant’s control of property belonging to a RICO enterprise is sufficient to establish a forfeitable ownership interest in the property.”

“…even if the Court were to assume that the collective membership mark is subject to forfeiture,” Cooper continued, “the Court finds no statutory authority to seize property bearing the mark from third parties…. only defendants’ interests in the RICO enterprise and the proceeds from their racketeering activity are subject to forfeiture.”

The Constitutional Issue

Judge Cooper did not rule on the constitutionality of the seizure of a motorcycle club’s patch but she did take time to say that the Constitution of the United States unambiguously forbids it.

“In contrast to commercial trademarks, which are used in commerce and generally not entitled to full First Amendment protections,” Cooper explained, “collective membership marks are used by members of an organization to ‘indicate membership in a union, an association, or other organization.’ The use and display of collective membership marks therefore directly implicate the First Amendment’s right to freedom of association. The Supreme Court has recognized that ‘implicit in the right to engage in activities protected by the First Amendment’ is ‘a corresponding right to associate with others in pursuit of a wide variety of political, social, economic, educational, religious, and cultural ends.’ This right is crucial in preventing the majority from imposing its views on groups that would rather express other, perhaps unpopular, ideas.’ Furthermore, clothing identifying one’s association with an organization is generally considered expressive conduct entitled to First Amendment protection…. If speech is noncommercial in nature, it is entitled to full First Amendment protection, which prohibits the prior restraint and seizure of speech-related materials without a judicial determination that the speech is harmful, unprotected, or otherwise illegal.

“Prohibiting speech of this nature constitutes an attack on a particular viewpoint. In Sammartano (v. First Judicial District Court, in and for the County of Carson City) the Carson City courthouse enacted a rule to prohibit admission of those with ‘clothing, attire or colors which have symbols, markings or words indicating an affiliation with street gangs, biker or similar organizations,’ because ‘such clothing or attire can be extremely disruptive and intimidating, especially when members of different groups are in the building at the same time.’ The Ninth Circuit reasoned that the rule singles out bikers and similar organizations for the message their clothing is presumed to convey, and held that the rule impermissibly discriminates against a particular point of view – the view of biker clubs as opposed to garden clubs and gun clubs. In this case, the Government targets an even narrower group of individuals, a single motorcycle club. In addition, the Government has been seizing property, which imposes a greater restriction on individual rights than the denial of access to a public facility. Accordingly, the seizure of property bearing a Mongols membership mark should be considered viewpoint-discriminatory. The Government’s ability to seize property bearing the trademark acts as a prior restraint and cannot stand without a judicial determination that the speech is harmful, unprotected, or otherwise illegal. No such determination was ever sought by the Government, and no such determination was ever made by the Court.”

Moore Plea Deal

The rest of Moore’s confession is a frank admission to “Racketeering Act Five,” that in May 2006 he thought about “taking care of” a troublesome female acquaintance of a man named Thomas Morris and another frank admission to “Racketeering Act Nine,” that the Pagans ran a fundraising raffle every year and some of that money passed through his hands.

About “Racketeering Act Five,” Moore confessed:

“In May 2006, Thomas Morris approached Moore about having a person “taken care of” for reasons personal to Morris. Morris spoke to Moore about this problem because Morris knew that Moore was the national vice president of the Pagans and Morris thought that Moore would know someone who could take care of Morris’ problem. Morris was a local chapter president of the Avengers Motorcycle Club. Morris told Moore that a woman had ‘ruined his life’ and he wanted her ‘taken care of.’ Morris did not care how the woman was ‘taken care of,’ but he wanted her ‘out of his life.’ Moore understood that Morris wanted this woman killed. Moore told Morris he knew someone who might be able to help him with his problem.

“Shortly after Morris’ initial conversation with Moore, Moore had a person known to both parties (the Known Person), who was a convicted murderer and member of the Pagans, contact Morris about the woman Morris wanted killed. Morris provided the Known Person with photographs of the victim and directions to her home. When the Known Person showed Moore the photographs and the maps at Moore’s residence in St. Albans, Kanawha County, West Virginia, within the Southern District of West Virginia, Moore told him to copy them and then destroy them. Moore also told the Known Person that if he helped Morris, it would give the Pagans the ‘weight’ it needed over the Avengers, since Morris was their local chapter president.”

About “Racketeering Act Nine,” Moore confessed in part that:

“On a yearly basis, including in 2007 and 2008, the mother club, including Moore and Barbeito (David Keith Barbeito was the Pagans National President) required all members of the Pagans to sell raffle tickets for a purported chance to win a motorcycle. The date on which the raffle was conducted and the amount of tickets each chapter was responsible for selling was dictated by the mother club. The raffle constituted gambling, in violation of the laws of the states in which the various Pagans members resided, in which the raffle was conducted, and in which the raffle money was collected and distributed. The money raised from the raffle was intended to be used to promote the Pagans. Chapter presidents were responsible for distributing raffle tickets to their chapter members and for collecting money from the sale of raffle tickets by their chapter members. The Pagans members were then required to travel to deliver the money to the mother club member in charge of that particular territory, in the case of Pagans members residing in Florida, New Jersey, New York, Philadelphia, and West Virginia, that mother club member was Moore. The money was ultimately delivered to Barbeito, who resides in Maryland.

“Each year, members of the Pagans sold 5000 tickets for ten dollars each, raising $50,000 for the PMC. All of this money from the sale of the raffle tickets went to Barbeito who had sole control and discretion over how to spend the money. For example, in 2008, Barbeito decided to give each mother club member one thousand dollars ($1,000).”

And A Partridge In A Pear Tree

In addition to the Pagans trademarks, Moore also agreed to forfeit a dozen firearms and the many interesting and unique items in the following list:

“Sheet of paper with Pagan names; evidence papers from trash bags; torn check and check deposit slip; lockbox with document; Pagan vests with patches; Pagan name list; Pagan clock; Pagan walking staff; wooden box containing Pagan patches; photos, notepads, business cards and notes; Rolodex, one belt, three belt buckles and weightlifting belt; birthday banner; four Pagan vests; Pagan caps, photos, mugs, and miscellaneous items; box of Pagan photos, patches and memorabilia; computer CD of photos; documents; Pagan walking stick, trophies, patches and photos; one 44-magnum cartridge; one bag of four Pagan vests; bag of Pagan patches and one Pagan vest; “Welcome Bikers” sign; Pagan belt, four t-shirts and one vest; three belts, three t-shirts and documents, and one black vest; one M&M bag containing bowl and green leafy substance; three Hells Angels t-shirts and one Hells Angel calendar; four Mongols t-shirts; 46 Pagan shirts; two blue jean Pagan vests; patches, documents and address book; prospect vest; briefcase; assorted Pagan memorabilia; two Pagan vests and patches and one belt buckle; Pagan patches and note, and lottery ticket; photos; photos and paperwork ‘Pagan’ storage building; address book and mail; Pagan wooden club; one box of keys (121 keys;) $21,895, more or less, in United States currency, packaged in a manner indicative of its origins, along with raffle tickets; one Safari Land body armor; Pagan memorabilia in large black garbage bag.”

But wait! There’s more!

“Steel Door Plaque ‘Pagans 1% ER;’ (one) long-sleeved black t-shirt with ‘Madness;’ set of three shot glasses w/glass plaque; Pagans 1% ‘In Memory of Lockjaw’ picture; Lone Riders ‘In Memory of’ picture with Lone Riders cut jacket; wood painted Pagans MC plaque; photograph of Jesse Moore and Barbeito; canvass flag ‘Pagans MC;’ photo, Jesse Moore and Hot Shot; two pictures w/Pagans MC; two group photos w/MC members; copper Pagan MC plaque; business card handgun safety class; two plaques w/Pagans MC; wood plaque with Pagans MC; meeting format picture; two wood plaques with PFFP; three pieces of paper with phone numbers; Christmas card; two baggies w/’Fuck the Hells Angels’ stickers; Pagans stickers; picture frame with price list for merchandise; ten t-shirts with ‘Support the l%’s Insanity;’ 24 t-shirts ‘l%er Pagans MC;’ mirror with Pagans; plaque to Pagans from DDMC; certificate from ‘Riding for Jesus Christ;’ Pagans banner (canvass;) box with t-shirts ‘From Schmidt to Moores;’ one leather belt with Pagans MC; one hat with ‘Pagan War Party;’ glass plate with Pagans MC; stone plaque with Pagans MC; mirror stand with 1%; clip holding bartender checklist and newspaper clippings; bartender tab/bill; Suddenlink bill.”

Certainly all good citizens will sleep better tonight knowing all that stuff is off the street.

Smith Plea Deal

Richard Howard Lacy Smith signed a confession ten days ago that remained secret until Friday.

Smith confessed that:

“Prior to June 1, 2006, the Pagans Motorcycle Club had an ongoing and violent rivalry with the Hell’s Angels Motorcycle Club. Richard Howard Leslie(sic) Smith, also known as ‘Reverse,’ knew that Ronnie Howerton, a member of the Pagans, was collecting weapons for the Pagans ongoing conflict with the Hells Angels. Charles H. Nichols, also known as ‘Tombstone Charlie,’ told Howerton that he could get explosives for him to use in the ongoing conflict with the Hells Angels. Mr. Nichols obtained explosives, that is, military grade C4 and two hand grenades, and gave them to James Hoback to transfer to Howerton. Howerton was unable to take the explosives from Mr. Hoback, so Mr. Hoback gave the explosives to Mr. Smith so he could deliver them to Howerton. Mr. Smith transported the explosives from Virginia to Princeton, Mercer County, West Virginia, in the Southern District of West Virginia.

“Howerton had told Mr. Smith, Mr. Hoback and Mr. Nichols, that the explosives would be used against members of the Hells Angels. Mr. Smith transported the explosives and gave them to Howerton with the intent that the explosives would be used to kill, injure or intimidate members of the Hells Angels. In June of 2006, Mr. Smith, Mr. Hoback and Mr. Nichols were all members of the Pagans.”

Neither Smith nor Moore’s plea deals specify how much jail time, if any, the two men will be expected to serve.

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113 Comments For This Post

  1. Magnet Says:

    “Judge Cooper did not rule on the constitutionality of the seizure of a motorcycle club’s patch…” Mr. Rebel, if in fact there has never been any official ruling on this issue, are the Feds free to keep pulling this over and over again until there IS an official ruling somewhere someday by someone? Can they simply keep shopping this bullshit around in hopes of eventually find a Federal court sympathetic to their way of thinking?

  2. Doc Jones Says:

    This shit is getting way out of hand!! Where in the hell did all of the rats come from? Why can only a select few hold their mud? How are these weak motherfuckers allowed to earn their patch? Most, if not all clubs these days are letting weak ass punks destroy them. Things change but this type of change is just plain crazy!! Who in their right mind would ever consider joing a club? Maybe I’m just not getting it. If I’m out in left field someone please set me straight!!

  3. Anonymous Says:

    I agree with you in some of what you are saying. However not all of it holds mud here. Moore was a longtime Pagan from what I understand. Most likely did not come in from any lax recruitment standards. The Pagans are a relatively small club, so i don’t think they grew too fast and ended up with bad people.

    What I think separates things from today vs the old days are two things.
    1) Society as a whole as weakened. Stand up, honorable men are no longer valued in our society, and it has become ok to be out for no one other than yourself.

    2)The feds have gotten much better that their game of intimidation. They have been doing this for a long time and know what works.

    Since RICO and LEO targeting organized crime there has also been rats. Sammy the bull for one example. The Mafia wasn’t immune to weak people, and neither are motorcycle clubs.

    I do agree that this has become a sad state of affairs.

  4. fayettenam hoe Says:

    as i posted in another blog here, the piggies love a trophy

  5. DocB Says:

    Dear Doc Jones
    Naw, you get it. You get it all. You’re not out in left field at all.
    I’ve been asking myself the same questions for awhile now. At the risk of sounding like a dinasaur, things used to be tighter. Some guys even used to choose to serve out instead of parole out. When they got out they were all the way out. One difference now is that sentences are longer. They are “criminalizing everything and federalizing all crime”.
    A guy say in his late fiftys or early sixtys could be looking at the equivelant of a life sentence for J walking if he did it in two states and talked about it with two of his buddys in a phone conversation.
    The fed is compleetly the fuck out of controol. It’s been getting bad for years and since 911 it’s fallen off a fuckin’ clif. They do what ever they want and dare you to straighten it out in court. And while you’re trying to find your civil rights in court, forfiture laws have taken all your money and property and forced your family into the street.

    Aging in discust



  7. Mr. America Says:

    It appears, the new ATF retirement package consists of; Go undercover, if you don’t find anything, make something up. Or, attempt to provoke an innocent person to commit an illegal act, to prove to their handlers they’re doing something beside’s having fun hanging out with their Unsuspecting-Innocent Brothers. Betray those who have sincerely grown to love you. Put innocent people in prison and destroy their families. Contract a multi-million dollar book and movie deal. Move to their newly purchased multi-million dollar home. And, live in some self-righteous state of dillusion. This needs to be brought to a screeching halt. Now!

    Another interesting dillusional reality is The Sons of Anarchy-play the LEO’s are using in an attempt to convince the common citizens of this country that these clubs are all like this. It’s fantasy TV. It’s Hollywood make-believe! About as real as Santa Claus. They (The LEO’s) seem to forget, most of these guys come from Common America. Hangout with most of Common America. And, most of Common America isn’t buying into the LEO’s bullshit. The Principals of Difference, is why this Country was founded. We are NOT going to bow down to some Bureaucratic Tyranical Power Structure, who will violate our Constitutional Rights in an attempt to gain more power and money. It’s my belief, the Bureaucrats are hitting soft targets within Our Country in an attempt to make themselves look good. Because they’re failing miserably overseas. Just my opinion. I’m still allowed to have an opinion in this Country, aren’t I?

  8. Goldsboro Williams Says:

    Mr. America:

    American’s are into fantasy, be it biker or LEO experiences. TV has been flooded with nonsense police shows, so now Hollywood is showing what they purport to be the other side of the coin.

    Just like LEO shows, it is all fluff.

    How entertaining would either type of show be if it consisted of guys drinking beer, griping about their wives, worrying about their kids, complaining about their bosses, and trying to fudge on their taxes?

    And we are obviously still allowed to have an opinion, at least until this site and one’s like it are deemed to be “Hate Speech.” And yes, I do believe that day is coming. Yes indeed.


  9. Woodstock Says:

    Stand up fight back and die or sit back and watch Rome burn. Hell or a choice but there it is and there it has always been. Unfortunately our situation can be compared to someone in a burning house, trapped in a second story closet with the fire burning just outside the door.
    Sweet dreams.


  10. Vacuus Cura Says:

    Anonymous said: “1) Society as a whole as weakened. Stand up, honorable men are no longer valued in our society, and it has become ok to be out for no one other than yourself.”

    This is true; we are a nation of pussies.

    It is also true that men with “nothing to lose” are very rare nowadays. Most seem concerned with their family, possessions, or personal wellbeing. Few are willing to spit in the face of “authority”.

    Situations like this are a sad commentary on the modern “man”.

  11. square verbose doc Says:

    About “Racketeering Act Five,” Moore confessed:
    “In May 2006, Thomas Morris approached Moore about having a person “taken care of” for reasons personal to Morris. …… Morris told Moore that a woman had ‘ruined his life’ and he wanted her ‘taken care of.’ Morris did not care how the woman was ‘taken care of,’ but he wanted her ‘out of his life.’ Moore understood that Morris wanted this woman killed. Moore told Morris he knew someone who might be able to help him with his problem.

    “Shortly after Morris’ initial conversation with Moore, Moore had a person known to both parties (the Known Person), who was a convicted murderer and member of the Pagans, contact Morris about the woman Morris wanted killed. Morris provided the Known Person with photographs of the victim and directions to her home. When the Known Person showed Moore the photographs and the maps at Moore’s residence in St. Albans, Kanawha County, West Virginia, within the Southern District of West Virginia, Moore told him to copy them and then destroy them. Moore also told the Known Person that if he helped Morris, it would give the Pagans the ‘weight’ it needed over the Avengers, since Morris was their local chapter president.”

    No doubt the tactics of the Feds are despicable and unconstitutional, but is anyone bothered by a club VP acting as “murder matchmaker”?

    As an aside, the Feds apparently weren’t that bothered that much by it either; they chose to make a deal to let them confiscate the patch rather than vigorously prosecute those allegedly involved in a murder conspiracy, leading me to think that for the Feds, “people don’t kill people, patches kill people.”

  12. Not Surprised Says:

    Square Verbose Doc:

    No doubt the tactics of the Feds are despicable and unconstitutional, but is anyone bothered by a club VP acting as “murder matchmaker”?

    There is so much provocation here. We do not know if this entire scenario was orchestrated as a means of entrapping. We do not know if “The Known Person” was conspiring with the Feds. We do not know if the indicted was being set up or by whom.

    Why was the other party (the one who allegedly instigated “taking care” of this woman) not indicted?

    Conspiracy requires three or more. It doesn’t matter if two are working for the Feds.

    I’m not saying this is actually what happened, just positing a possibility. It would make sense if the Feds knew there never was truly a real threat to this woman.

    We simply do not know if the indicted said or did all these things. I for one certainly will not take the word of the Government that he did, even if he did sign a confession. It strains credulity that he would admit to this unless he was promised a sweet deal.

    So he may be guilty “on paper”.

    Being able to state that a national officer of the club just confessed to a conspiracy to commit murder elevates the RICO counts against everyone else.

    RICO is not nor has it ever been abut justice. It isn’t even about the truth. Its abut throwing enough shit against enough walls in hopes some of it will stick.

    This is a long, long way from 12 people deciding a case at trial.

  13. Bud Says:

    Youre absolutely right, they will keep trying until they find a judge to take their side. Law of averages, like goin to a bar or club and askin enough women “hey, you wanna fuck?” after bein slapped all night eventually youre gonna find the one that says “oh yeah!”

  14. Doc Jones Says:

    Lot’s of good comments. We’re in bad times for sure. This would be a good time for all clubs to band together and fight for a common cause. It won’t happen but it would be great if it did. Same thing with prison. If the inmates would understand they aren’t gaining anything by fighting each other and would stand solid as one, things would be much better inside. It’s easy to say these things but in reality the politics, greed, and all the other bullshit prevents any of this from happening. For me, I have my brothers and family and that puts me ahead of the game. Our country is going to shit. Obama has his own agenda and it’s nothing that will make things better. We’re in for tough times. Just think how today everything is so much different than 20 years ago. I wonder how it will be 5 or 10 years from now!!

  15. sled tramp Says:

    ” youre gonna find the one that says “oh yeah!”
    Yeah…but it’s always an ugly situation you end up in.
    sled tramp

  16. square verbose doc Says:

    Not Surprised:

    All good points. It’s why I used the word “allegedly” involved.

    I’m going to assume that if what Moore confessed to were true, you would find it disturbing unless you tell me otherwise.

    That I find your arguments credible illustrates how much entrapment, RICO, and the enterprise theory degrade the process of law enforcement by focusing on labeling and then catching “criminals” rather than prosecuting crimes.

  17. Rebel Says:

    Dear Square Verbose Doc,

    I understand your point but the woman is still alive. Nobody killed a woman. Three guys, never together, TALKED ABOUT killing a woman while the government of the United States SPIED ON THEM.

    I don’t actually think I have ever talked about killing some woman but I have definitely known some women who could drive a man to that kind of talk. I have known at least two.

    Thinking about revenge is just how people work. And, the less powerful a man is in the world at large the more likely he is to cherish his fantasies of revenge.

    Government spying on the private, personal lives of citizens is terrible. The essence of totalitarianism is the criminalization of thought and speech.

    Killing a woman, or actually trying to kill a woman, is and should be illegal. But this is a case where the police criminalized a pipe dream. And, I don’t think the police have any right to criminalize people’s hopes, dreams, delusions or rage. What next? Television? Rap? Broadway musicals? Prayers?

    And, by the way, the police and the prosecutors here are not trying to perfect the world. They are not trying to protect “good people from bad people.” The police and the prosecutors here are trying to glorify themselves and advance their careers.

    Always nice to hear from you, by the way.

    your pal,

  18. Rebel Says:

    Dear Magnet,

    Judge Cooper did not rule on the constitutionality of the issue because, in the world of federal courts, it would be disrespectful of her to do so. Only the Supreme Court can rule on constitutionality.

    She basically said two things:

    1) Courts superior to her have already ruled this sort of bullshit to be unconstitutional.

    2) It doesn’t matter if it is unconstitutional or not. No one person, or even a group of people, own an association like a motorcycle club or a church. You can put the Pope in prison tomorrow and he still cannot give away the symbols of the Catholic Church to the feds. They are his symbols but they do not belong to him. Same deal with a motorcycle club.

    In my opinion, what the feds are doing in the Pagans case is they are trying to make the defense attorneys and the club as a whole defend against as many of these off the wall attacks as possible. Unless the prosecutors are morons, they already know they cannot legally seize the Pagans patch. What they are doing is they are making the Pagans Motorcycle Club hire a lawyer, file a motion, point out the case law to the judge, go to court at $500 an hour and argue the motion and so on for the next four months.

    In my opinion it is a very clear example of malicious prosecution. The club and defense attorneys, who have limited resources still have to defend themselves against the specious excesses of the prosecutors who have unlimited resources. If the club does not respond to this attempted seizure the club will lose by default.

    These motorcycle club cases never come down to guilt or innocence or what the law really says. They all come down to who runs out of money first. And, public relations. Public relations is very important and bikers make great villains. The feds call it “perception management.”

    your pal,

  19. DocB Says:

    dear SVD

    On pleading guilty to something you didn’t do

    Guys will do this sometimes if things are just right. They have you on 5 minor fellonys that you really did and they can prove it in court. If they do that and include a 20 year rico umbrella over all 5 charges and you’re over 40 years old you might never see daylight.
    or they give you a chance to plead guilty to a single tricked up bullshit charge (that they probably can’t prove) for 5-7 years and give you a pass on rico and the other 5 charges

    Are you going to court and take a 40 year sentence, or plead to something you might not have done for 5-7 years?

    Mr. Moore is 64 years old…………… do the math
    I’m not comming out for or againts Mr. Moore or anyone else here.
    I’m not saying this is the exact scenario here, but it’s kinda the idea of how things sometimes shake out.
    20 or 30 years ago things were a lot simpler.


  20. DocB Says:

    sled tramp and Bud

    Yeah, and “they all get prittier at closing time”


  21. sled tramp Says:

    All I can say is I’ve never gone to bed with an ugly woman but I’ve woken up to more than a few….
    sled tramp

  22. Bud Says:

    Sled Tramp,
    How right you are, falls into category of ” be careful what you wish for, you may just get it”. Look at this angle….Feds succeed in takin clubs patches to the point of gettin what they want…no clubs flyin colors. Now theyve created a situation complete anononimity(spelling?)especially among smaller groups of say just 4 or 5 guys puttin somewhere. Now you get L.E.O. harrassing every single person they see on a bike just to justify there jobs. Pull over enough of the wrong people,,, judges, lawyers, political activists, deep pocketed wannabe hollywood types and now the problem is brought out in the open to mainstream U.S.A. Now the inadequacies of ATF and other agencies are made public knowledge and the romance of good guy catches bad guy is exposed as the farce that it is…IN ORDER FOR THE “GOOD GUYS” TO CATCH THE “BAD GUYS” THE “GOOD GUYS” HAVE TO BREAK THE LAW TO DO IT EFFECTIVELY.. there is no other way!
    Wow! to quote Dave Mustaine ” nice story…tell it to readers digest”
    Amyway enough ranting and fantasizing
    DocB,, Id like to steall a line from the late great George Carlin if you dont mind? “Ive never fucked a 10, but one night I fucked 5 2’s, I think that should count!”

  23. square verbose doc Says:

    Dear Rebel,

    It’s always nice to post here.

    I’m sure we can all agree that the whole truth of this situation may never be known. As Not Surprised points out, that the instigator of the whole thing has not been indicted does indeed make the story suspect, as does the ambiguous status of the “Known Person”. I also acknowledge what DocB said, that sometimes our system (perversely) encourages people do admit to things that they did not do–perhaps the worst single aspect of the criminal justice system. That the alleged plot never made it past the planning stages is further reason to doubt its reality. So I agree wholeheartedly that there are plenty of reasons to doubt the facts of the confession and thank DocB and Not Surprised for walking me through them.

    That said, IF the actual facts of the confession are true, it seems to me more than someone’s pipe dream. When someone tells me they wish they were dead, I try to ascertain if it is a fantasy or the prelude to a plan. If someone tells me that his friend Joe can hook him up with a big bottle of phenobarb, and he’s already written the check, I start thinking about hospital preferences.

    IF the facts of the confession are true, then for me, things cross the line when Moore actually puts Morris in touch with the Known Person. That goes from pipe dream to potential plan.

    You all have certainly convinced me on the evils of entrapment, and that the government has an irrational hatred for patch holders. Still, I don’t think that anyone should feel its OK to help someone to issue a fatwah against even the most troublesome woman. IF the facts of the confession are true, Moore made serious moral and tactical errors in his dealings with Morris whether there was entrapment or not. Two wrongs don’t make a right on either side.

    In summary, I’m not dismissing anything anyone else is saying here–hence the capitalization of IF– just trying to explore the (in this venue) less comfortable flip side of it.

    In some weird way I hope you guys are right. We already know that the justice system can be perverse, so naive that I am, I’d rather believe in a guy’s innocence than in his guilt.

    Square Verbose Doc

  24. Magnet Says:


    Thank you for the explanation. As always, it is most appreciated.

    Regards & Respect,


  25. JD Fla Says:

    Long time reader, first time poster, but much praise for those who post regularly like Sled Tramp, Square Verbose Doc, and the many others. Being a lawyer (in FLA), an advocate for the regular guy against the system, and one who follows this site daily for the top notch reporting from Rebel, I can add that NO ONE wants to be involved in the federal criminal system if possible. The playing field is completely uneven in favor of the govt, which is why they are so gung ho. MC’s appear to be the new “mafia” to them, and after watching many like Rudy Giuliani build a political future after prosecuting such RICO cases, these govt attys are drooling for exposure and advancement.

    The govt lawyers have unlimited resources and often time receive favoritism in judicial circles, so they can do some really fancy legal wrangling in order to play with charges and plea deals to intimidate most anyone into doing things they would not normally do. That may be why some of the brothers that normally hold their mud have pled, having basically no choice. I find it hard to point the finger at them when RICO is being used in an unconsitutional fashion to regulate arguably constitutionally protected private matters and behavior. Unless the defense has substantial resources and representation (which 90% of us don’t), they are at the mercy of the govt. because of the draconian laws currently in place. Plea deals are rammed down throats because there are only inequitable options available to those caught up in the system. In other words..they say unless you want to go up for a good part of your remaining years.. sign the damn plea… OR ELSE..

    One day soon, the feds will be telling everyone what they can wear, how they can act, who they can associate with, and will define what is “proper” conduct in our society. While I am part of the system, I fight everyday to prevent such things from happening to the regular guy/girl out there and wish more did so. After reading about the Pagans issues (and the Mongols) regarding their patches, I had to post to show my support for those clubs and any others that are dealing with the atrocities going on with RICO pleas and forfeitures. Soon, they will be telling everyone, not just club folk, how to act, dress, walk, talk, eat, and shit… and what to ride…and they will be forfeiting property to further their goals… RIDICULOUS!

    Should anyone need any legal input, or if I can help in any way, feel free to ask. And to those personally involved in this fight like the clubs mentioned by Rebel here and above, stay strong and keep up the good fight…. much support from here in FLA… thanks for the forum..

    Mark S.

  26. Rebel Says:

    Dear Sled Tramp,

    Shut the blinds. Pull the cover over your head. They all look the same in the dark.

    your pal,

  27. JD Fla Says:

    As a post script – here is a link to an article describing how Pres. Obama was able to get a federal prosecution of the Black Panthers stopped in its tracks… fed. legal system is just too biased and corrupt! We need someone like ex Minn gov. Jessee Ventura (I believe he is or was affiliated with the Mongols) in the White House to take care of the MC’s under fire!

  28. Snow Says:

    It is truly sad times we live in, it seems that the plan is to make all the world a carbon copy, globalization is what what it’s called and aggression toward anyone or thing different from accepted social norms is to be be demonized to society and destroyed. Feds are making MCs the new terrorists so the Patriot Act can stomp all over you rights, steal your stuff and dare you to fight them. I wish the Pagans and the Mongols the best of luck in their legal battles …… FTF ………

  29. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    JD Fla:

    Thanks for your kind words, but speaking as someone who is both relatively new here and a sort of a guest in this community, I can’t let you include me in the same category as someone like sled tramp and some of the others who have earned a special place here through the wealth of their experiences and through their honesty and kindness in sharing them in this forum.


    Square Verbose Doc

  30. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    PS: Hope I made it was clear that I mean that I am the person relatively new and a sort of guest here!

  31. Bud Says:

    JD Fla,
    I agree with you about the bias of the system, Ive womdered how far this type of thing would get if atf targeted more ethnic oriented clubs, like rare breed or soul brothers, how far they would get before the discrimination card reared up. After all look at the case of Pete Rose, never did anything during his playing days, set every record he could set (and never proven guilty of anything) and is banned from baseball and denied the hall of fame yet you have Michael Jordan who was found in violation of gambling while he was a player and nothing happens. Pete Rose even stated “If I was black or a drug addict Id be in the hall of fame”. Now you have a black president steppin in to stop a federal case against a black orginization but doing absolutely nothing to stop or even have a voice about our first amendment rights being stripped based on prejudice of a certain type of group of people

  32. sled tramp Says:

    Square Verbose Doc,
    I see where this is going…you keeping saying nice things about me…I’m a guy with a white beard,belly and a sled….and this week has a certain day in it….clever….clever.. good psychology…
    sled tramp
    Don’t worry,I used up the entire coal supply in T-dogg’s present….

  33. Not Surprised Says:


    You’re no more a guest than the rest of us. Most of us respect Rebel’s house and what this site is about.

    Just don’t go trying to rehabilitate us, you’ll end up being a convert.

  34. square verbose doc Says:

    Sled: I see where this is going too. You’re annoyed at the transparency of my attempt to get on the “nice” list, and I’m going to be rewarded with my first “bike”. But it’s going to be a Vespa, and when word gets out, I’ll never be able to post here again!

  35. Not Surprised Says:

    My Respects to all the Troops and their families. Hard time of year.

  36. Mikonos Says:

    The trademark rulings are interesting and when these cases work themselves through the court they will set precedent and be case examples for law school. I’m not a trademark lawyer but I’ve worked on the business side of trademarks extensively. So any lawyers out there that have better info feel free to speak up.

    From a high level I don’t believe that any of these cases will stand the test of time in terms of the ability of the government to take control of the marks and seize property with the marks on it. Now, that stated, some interesting complexities:

    There are many types of trademarks, the most relevant groupings for this discussion are collective membership marks, trademarks and trade service marks. Trademarks are associated with products (think Nike, Gatorade, Coca Cola). Service marks are associated with services (Google, Roto-Rooter, etc) and collective membership marks are as described by Judge Cooper above and govern membership organizations.

    The Hells Angels have all three (and appear to have the best lawyers…they sued Disney over “Wild Hogs”). So the death head is registered as a collective membership mark but there are a series of trade service and trademarks associated with specific classification of items (use on clothing is one, jewelry is another, etc). The government is pretty specific about these classifications so you need a separate filing for each grouping. These could number in the high tens or hundreds for a given mark.

    The Mongols have a single service mark associated with a corporation for providing services in organizing a motorcycle club.

    The Pagan’s have a single trademark associated with specific clothing items and it is registered in the name of Floyd Moore.

    Now, the product and service marks are arguably “business assets” used to make money (but can be used by non-profits…for example the helping hands of United Way). These, in theory, can be seized and arguably have value for future business although I find it hard to believe the government is going to be selling club items or selling the trademarks for somebody else to sell them. Of course they could simply “sit” on them.

    So as of earlier this year the government owns most of General Motors, they can influence the trademarks. They could (and arguably have) killed some of the marks such as Saturn and Saab. They CAN’T however, go into your garage and take your car if it happens to be a Saturn or a Saab. So even in the most extreme of arguments if the government could seize and “control” the marks they would have no ability to do anything with what is currently out there in the possesion of the general population. They could (maybe) prevent incremental production and sales of said marks.

    What Judge Cooper did is basically found that the marks, regardless of the filings, are all collective membership marks that are protected by the constitution and can’t be seized.

    Now, I commend the clubs on trying to follow the rule of law by filing trademarks but I wonder if they are not better off abandoning the marks entirely. In this case there would be nothing for the government to seize. These marks are probably the least likely to be copied or counterfeited on the face of the planet.

    The funny part of the law is you don’t need a listed filing to defend a trademark…only proof of use in practice. The filing makes it a little easier to defend in court and puts some $$$ in the lawyer pockets but in practice you can make legal arguments that you own the mark without the filing.

    The reality is what was stated in the posts above, the government can do whatever they want, and if they lose so what, bottomless (taxpayer funded) pockets.

    Until the government is accountable for their “mistakes” (e.g. penalties for malicious prosecution) the LE harassment will unfortunately continue. Hopefully in the long term legal precedents will resolve this, at least with regards to the trademarks.

  37. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    “Now, I commend the clubs on trying to follow the rule of law by filing trademarks but I wonder if they are not better off abandoning the marks entirely. In this case there would be nothing for the government to seize. These marks are probably the least likely to be copied or counterfeited on the face of the planet.”

    They are channeling their inner lawyer or were told by lawyers that it is a must; while I’m not a lawyer, I’ve spent enough time with lawyer friends to understand the thinking.

    Least likely doesn’t come into play here. Corporate lawyers are paid in in large part to imagine what COULD happen and head it off at the pass. So if a club told a lawyer that they couldn’t imagine anyone infringing their mark, the lawyer would come up with some scenario where it happens and results in a disaster.

    I also remember vaguely hearing something to the effect that once you let someone use your mark without challenging it, you may lose the right to protect it in the future. My understanding is that there are a lot of corporate situations in which a company for PR reasons doesn’t really want to go after someone, but their lawyers convince them on these grounds that it is a necessity.

    Vigorous trademark protection would probably resonate with the clubs; natural desire to do anything to protect their name, patch, and other symbols, anyway.

  38. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    Dear Not Surprised:

    Thank you for including me equally among the guests.
    I just didn’t feel comfortable being given such high billing among long established regulars by JD Fla.

    I hope you won’t take my occasional dissent and also occasional statements out of ignorance for disrespect for Rebel, for the site or for the community here.

    Coming from the “civilian” world, I think sometimes that I’m prone to speak out of turn here. At the same time, I somehow think it’s better to get into the mix, make some mistakes, and take my lumps than to make myself mute.

    I think (hope) you were at least partially joking, but please don’t think that I am here to rehabilitate anyone, nor to be converted (though I could think of much worse fates). I am here to learn, to stretch and grow a little, and for a respectful meeting of the minds. If in the process, I can offer others some food for thought, even better. And to me, honesty when we disagree about something is one of the highest forms of respect.

    I’ve been all around the internet. I find this is a truly special place, reflecting both its creator and those who post here.

    Square Verbose Doc

  39. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    Dear Sled:

    I had second thoughts. Give me T-Dogg’s coals. Coas are useful and therefore too good for him. Give T-Dogg lumps of some other substance, of your choosing.

  40. JD Fla Says:

    Square Verbose Doc – no disrespect meant to the long time regulars on the site like sled tramp, being new myself. Just wanted to pass on my regards for the various comments I have read from you that made great sense to me anyway… and some also have had me laughin my ass off as well!

    I am thankful to all for the forum, especially Rebel as he is our gracious and always entertaining host..

    Best wishes to all and families (cept Teebag errr TeeDogg) for the upcoming holidays!

  41. sled tramp Says:

    Square Verbose Doc,
    In July of 1984, I helped cast a movie filming in S.F. This was shown that Fall on channel 7 the local ABC affiliate.The movie was a piece on Jack London and required “Wharf Rats” as background.So, A buddy and I contacted a couple of local chapters of a famous M.C. and got friends to act as extras.During the early A.M. wait while props and set were getting the old bar at 4th and Bryant ready (They had a baby grand in a restroom I could barely turn around in ?!?), a guy I knew well and I had a conversation in the Winnebago we were using as an H.Q.
    Now, this guy’s parents had met while in the State looney bin.His dad had broken out and returned to break out his mom.
    During the course of this little chat, I noted a man who I knew to be an extra furiously scribbling away in a notebook with constant glances towards us.I,in those days being DEEPLY suspicious of those unknown to me,asked what he was doing.Turned out he was a clinical psychiatrist and acted as a hobby.Next thing I knew, he was trying to ask various members of this club how they’d grown up.Their environment,parental support etc..
    In totally stunned disbelief, I heard him ask a former P if he’d ever killed anyone and did it bother him.I think this was about the same time as the room seemed to start rolling around in my head.
    I have never grabbed anyone so fast in my life as I did that guy.I’m not sure who I was trying to save but I’m very sure my name was on the short list.A buddy and I frog marched this psychiatrist at mach 2 to the door where we bid him a no nonsense adieu.And as a lovely parting gift, I disarmed him by confiscating his notebook.
    As long as you don’t do anything like that, I have nooooo problem with ya.
    sled tramp

  42. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    Sled Tramp:

    Ouch. That’s a great story. The Scribbler’s behavior was really shocking and intrusive. Very unprofessional and amateurish. The worst of our profession are those who don’t understand the importance of things like boundaries, privacy, and consent. That he was an amateur actor makes me wonder if he was also one of those guys who goes on TV and pronounces diagnoses on famous people he’s never met–another of my pet peeves. Glad you marched him out.

    I leave the notepad in the office. Always.
    Outside the office, if someone approaches me who really needs help and asks me, I’ll try to send them in the right direction, but that’s as far as it goes. People get annoyed at my attempts to evade being pressed to be a psychiatrist in situations where I just want to be a person.

    A much revered faculty member used to tell us we should be human beings first, physicians second, and psychiatrists third.

    Sqaure Verbose Doc

  43. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    JD Fla:

    Thanks, and I’m always glad if I can provide an opportunity for someone to laugh.

    Square Verbose Doc

  44. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    JD Fla:

    To return this thread to its topic, am I off base about lawyers pushing their clients to protect trademarks because if they don’t they’ll lose the protction in the future?


  45. Mikonos Says:

    Square Verbose Doc,

    “Corporate” and “Club” are two very different breeds of cat. I’ve done business in both worlds. If a member sees a non member wearing a patch they don’t speed dial their lawyer. Trademark enforcement is extremely expensive as well. One of my clients spends $50M+ a year on it (very large global brand). Not sure what the “disaster” scenario is for the club, can imagine the disaster scenario for the violator of the patch. I think “vigorous trademark enforcement does resonate with the clubs”, in fact it is a defining characteristic of the clubs…probably not the way your thinking about it!

    The ATF is using the trademarks against the clubs…my point is why give them the ammo when the likelihood of using legal remedies is so low?

    Appreciate your thoughts.


  46. Not Surprised Says:


    I was just yanking your chain, a little……….

  47. Square Verbose Doc Says:


    I hear what you’re saying about not speed-dialing a lawyer, but at least one major and very sophisticated club has taken people to court several times to protect itsself–the plaintiffs were some internet entrepreneurs in one case a major cable network in antoher case, and a major movie studio. The disaster scenarios could be being misrepresented in a very public way, losing revenue opportunities, or (if I’m correct on this) losing control of your trademarks.

  48. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    Not surprised:

    No problem there. Consider it yanked. I probably need to just relax a bit–and I know how everyone here will tell me to accomplish that.

    This is what happens when your 9 month old thinks that 3 AM is a good time to wake up and socialize with her family, and adult members of said family tries to make up for the lost sleep with a lot of double espressos.

    I now return this thread to its original topic.

  49. Square Verbose Doc Says:


    The studio, internet guys and network were obviously not plaintiffs. They were the defendents. The MC was the plaintiff.

    Focus. Focus.

    I’m going off to take a nap and get my head together before I have to work again this afternoon.

  50. Damon Says:


    Unless i misunderstand you, I can think of a number of good reasons why a club would want to protect it’s trademark. Taken for granted is that it is as potent a symbol, a gathering point, as a flag. Men have rallied around and died to protect flags and symbols. Look at any military wet mess, and the homage paid to Unit patches, symbols and citations. Another example might be, say, a crucifix. I had a friend who referred to his club as his religion. So, on that basis alone, without beating it to daeth I think you’ll see the clubs continue to defend their marque.

    From a public relations perspective, it is also important to ensure that sins are not committed in one’s name. Even here in virtual-biker-world on the internet, look how many people come on here and allude to being patch holders. The best story I can use to illustrate this is the rumour that David Carradine was actually found in a Detroit Lions jersey and his family changed him into the fishnet stockings to avoid the humiliation.

    In the same vein, dressing in enemy uniforms is an ancient tactic…if it becomes commonplace to allow anybody and everybody to wear your mark, there’s even less to stop groups of LEOs, journalists, dare I say psychiatrists, hangarounds and who knows who all else having carte blanche to wear something that stands as a rare badge of honour. It’s like wearing someone else’s medals.

    Are we on the same wavelength here? I’m as tired as SVD, but it’s more self-inflicted, killing time waiting for my kid to get here for Christmas.

  51. Mikonos Says:

    Damon, understand FULLY the value of the mark. It is after all the key icon of the club. When I mentioned abandoning the mark I should have clarified myself. Meant in a legal sense, “abandoning” the legal filing of the mark NOT getting rid of the mark itself or how a club uses it.

    Reason being that once its filed it can be seized (rightly or wrongly). If its not filed it is still from a legal standpoint in existence as long as its used in commerce (or as a collective membership mark). But if its not filed the government can’t seize it.

    In other words, “self police” it…the clubs I know do this anyway, no? You can still use a threat of legal action whether or not a filed trademark is in place if you can demonstrate that it is being used in practice.

    My sense (I can’t speak for others) is that the commercial benefits of the marks are not that great anyway. Clubs don’t make a lot of money on them, there biggest concern is how the marks are represented and to make sure nobody else is using them innapropriately or for other commercial reasons separate from the club.

  52. Not Surprised Says:

    REG NUMBER: 2619538

    This mark was registered in 2000 and indicates it had been in use continuously from December 1959. Status was clarified November 2008 as Mr. Moore retaining sole legal ownership.

    If Moore voluntarily relinquishes all rights and the maintenance fee for the mark has been paid by him, I don’t think anyone else has legal standing to challenge. I could be wrong.

    This could easily go down as a legal transfer without the Court’s involvement and an injunction being issued to restrain. I could be wrong.

    I hope I am wrong.

  53. Swampy Says:

    sled tramp, sorry for the delay in answering your earlier post. Do you mean to tell me “T-doggie” got a lump of coal with his bag of switches this year!?!?….LOL!

    Merry Christmas, to you, yours and the new addition to the family.

    Oh yeah, it was a balmy 62 degrees F. here in Louisiana – no frosty balls here, just WET ones.

  54. sled tramp Says:

    Thanks Swampy!
    I don’t know why I bothered with T-doggie’s coal…he just goes into the evidence room to fill his Xmas list.
    I appreciate the good wishes.Same to you and yours (and to everyone else around here).
    I’d LOVE 62 degrees…My daughter-in-law here is from Evangeline,LA. She REALLY misses your weather.
    Gawd Bless the South,
    sled tramp

  55. fayettenam hoe Says:

    i just can’t see no money

  56. fayettenam hoe Says:

    i will allways be guilty, just look in the mirror

  57. JD Fla Says:

    SVD – Regarding protection of a trademark, I think they may fall prey to some sort of “waiver” argument if they do not protect it. Also, unauthorized use is actionable and can lead to damages, which can be substantial depending how the mark is used (e.g. Disney using the HA patch for a movie “Wild Hogs” which got shut down by the HA attys. Had they used it, much $$ would have been paid by Disney).

    Let me add..patents and trademarks are specialty fields in law, and you actually have to take a separate bar exam for intellectual property to practice in that area, which I have not done. Just a regular practice guy here, consumer law, family law, contracts, construction, criminal.. whatever my clients need..I do hellacious research and have much trial experience from NY/NJ and FL, so I can cover many bases.. Hope the above helps..?

  58. JAMES Says:

    I think the FEDS. will continue these types of attacks to try and take the CLUB PATCHES, eventually finding a way to do so hoping to shut down all CLUBS in the future, as they are learning by the mistakes they make CLUBS had better learn to keep up and stay ahead of this FED GAME.

  59. Square Verbose Doc Says:

    Thanks JD Fla. I’m sure the attorneys were greatly appreciated for preventing any unwanted association with that particular cinematic masterpiece.

    Your post prompted me to do a brief search and what I came up with were a lot of websites of intellectual property lawyers that discussed the concept of “failure to enforce”. They all seem to imply that if you consistently fail to enforce your trademark (through legal means!), then you can’t suddenly turn around and resume doing so. It seems like an intellectual property version of adverse posession. (I learned about adverse posession because a friend of the family who is an attorney used to boast of obtaining the small patch of his property on which his woodshed is located from his sort of jerky neighbor through adverse posession!)

  60. JD Fla Says:

    SVD – just glad to contribute, so any time I can help, just ask. Rebel can give you my email (he has my permission if he needs it) if you’d like it. So many who post here have given me valuable insight and plenty of laughs, so it is a privilege to be able to contribute..

    Last day in the office for me.. so happy holidays to you and all of us that can’t get enough of the Rebel KoolAid!! I know I drink it in daily…

    love & respect…

  61. Mikonos Says:

    I took an interest in this blog a month or so ago and missed (until today)the “Government Loses Mongols Case” blog from August 18th. This clarifies a lot. Judge Cooper ruled that the Mongols mark is a collective membership mark protected by the first amendment regardless of the bouncing ball of ownership between different entities. The judge also referenced the specific trademark filings and reviewed them in making her judgment. I think having the trademarks in place helped.

    Per Not Suprised post the Pagan’s mark is on record as being in use since 1959 in Floyds filing that he filed as a commercial trademark for products. I *think* judge Cooper (and hopefully other reasonable judges) would find that the actual mark IS the collective membership mark used by the club since 1959 and hence protected by the first amendment.

    I change my opinion, I think the trademarks should be maintained as collective membership marks and not legally abandoned. I do not think that any club marks that are seized will remain in the hands of the feds for long.

    And now I’ll shutup on this topic. If JD Fla is unqualified to have a strong opinion, I’m definitely unqualifed.

    Happy holidays to all…and SVB, easy on the double espressos…could be a gateway drug? You, of course are the expert on that!

  62. John Cokos Says:

    Hmmmm…. Interesting.

    Listen to tonight’s rebroadcast of Biker Lowdown, touched on some of the points raised. Need a sort of “Biker’s Commission”, but where is the Lucky Luciano to head it up? There’s no one out there with the Sonny Barger personna and street cred’s to lead the movement.

  63. Magnet Says:

    JD Fla,

    Greetings! I enjoy your posts. Which, combined with a dollar bill and some additional pocket change, may actually buy you a Coke someday. Re: your comments about protection of trademarks:

    “….unauthorized use is actionable and can lead to damages.”

    True enough. But as is my custom on all major and minor holidays, I have consumed more than not nearly enough beer and schnapps – a deficiency which I am presently remedying furiously and forthwith. Thus, I am inclined to publicly demonstrate my viselike grasp of the obvious. To whit: if I’ve learned nothing else since first walking alone and uninvited into Mr. Rebel’s great hall, I have at least learned this: most people living in the world today fail to realize that, to a proud few who still walk this earth, disrespect itself is actionable and can lead to damages. Laws notwithstanding.

    A very simple, very powerful, and very righteous concept.

    And so I say this to you JD Fla – and to ALL on this forum who shall read this post – Merry Christmas! And a special “thank you” to our good & gracious host – Mr. Rebel. That said, I will now go outside into the 17 degree wood smoke scented air favored by us Yankees, hoist another beer, reflect on my good fortune, and possible fall down. But I do all these things as a freeborn American and, though I may fall, I shall never in my lifetime be obliged to bow.

    Regards & respect to all,


  64. BeeJohn47 Says:

    None of the clubs will survive this unless we all start to stand on some common ground. Divide and conquor always works and that is what is being counted on.
    That includes the non 1% clubs also.
    To think that the non 1% are not afected by this is naive.
    Every single club or association with over 10 chapters is affected. It is simple math.
    No one can aford to claim any territory when there is no territory to claim any more.
    The Christian, B.A.C.A and Sober clubs are also in this boat.
    None of our clubs will survive this unless we organize and present well.
    Take alook at the numbers, Nobody is growing as we once did. Take a look at the sport bike groups, no meetings, noprotocal,no nothing.
    We need someone or a group of persons whom are NOT meglamaniacs. It is bussiness guys.
    Listen. If Wards can go out of bussiness dont for a second think you cant.

  65. Mikonos Says:

    BeeJohn47, well put. Was thinking on the same lines. If you can isolate the trademark protections and have some type of group/fund to defend JUST that you could probably get the clubs to cooperate as well as get enough popular backing to make a difference.

    I’m (personally) not for defending all clubs on every legal issue they have with the Feds but I’m very, very passionate about the constitution.

    I’m also very interested in getting these idiots off their high horse and following the rule of law. What has me particularly incensed today is the guy who tried to blow up the airplane. The guys father who is a highly respected banker in Nigeria REPEATEDLY PLEADED with the U.S Feds to do something. Gives his name, passport number, where he is, etc. and he STILL manages to get on an airplane with a bomb?

    I’ve got my own beef with these assholes around the way they’ve policed our financial system, fucking joke. I’d like to crack that Pinata of shit wide open.

    I have no interest in leading it, I can’t for professional reasons but I would help organize and support.

    I’ll send Rebel my contact info if anyone is interested.

  66. John Cokos Says:

    The Clubs need to go to a different business model. If the Fed’s are that intent on snatching a clubs colors, let them have it. Coming up with a new sort of “free floating anxiety” symbol concept can be done start to finish in a week, and then implemented into a hard concept. They don’t even have to be the traditional color’s, they could be anything to indentify memberships, rings, jewerly, any type of non-traditional symbolism that is low key, yet can be identified by those who know what to look for. You can keep the Fed’s pretty busy with a constantly changing landscape, Yakuza style. Maybe the traditional model needs to be revamped to bring the battle to a more pro-active level.
    The old model is too static, and puts a big bull’s on your chest.

  67. sled tramp Says:

    Interesting but….
    An advanced hangaround gets a flash with his charter’s city over his heart.A prospect gets his bottom rocker which represents all his new (hopefully) life will offer after a crucible of commitment,a patch holder works hard everyday to prove he’s worthy of the honor of wearing his club’s identity for the world to see.All of which can be taken away by the only people that count.Their brothers.
    The feds et al can confiscate a patch which is made from cloth, they can’t confiscate the fiber of the man wearing the patch.
    I would no more ask a patchholder to switch from wearing the one thing that matters to him than I would ask a Maori to remove his tattoos.
    I understand the concept of rapidly evolving landscape to confuse and deter law enforcement.The problem is, in our culture, the thing that matters,that sets us apart from H.O.G. or Mr. Goldwing is our colors.
    The Japanese Yakuza stand out in a crowd due to their flamboyant style.They tend towards very obvious clothing,haircuts and personal markings.They’re easy to spot.They take great pride in their appearance.They have no desire to wear a Brooks Brother’s suit even if it means less interaction with their police.It’s who they are and their appearance reflects that they have “made it” in that world.
    A man who undergoes a prospect period and passes, does not have a grass is greener attitude towards another club. He chose his path,they accepted him for what he is.There is nothing else of consequence.
    Much like the military, that part of his life,lifelong or briefly, is always in us.No matter where or what we do.
    The idea of “Let them have it” is beyond comprehension to me.
    sled tramp

  68. DirtyBruin Says:

    John Cokos:

    What sled tramp said.

    I’m a member of a small, 1-piece patch club. Not the sort where you fill out a form, write a check and get a patch, but where one has to be known to and hang out with the members before there’s any chance of being invited to join. We’re not 1%ers and have no aspiration to be – but my experience with my club gives me, I think, just a slight glimmer of an idea what those who are feel about their patch – and your idea, while obviously well intentioned, simply Will Not Fly.

  69. Not Surprised Says:


    Spoken like a true dickweed…….

  70. Not Surprised Says:


    I think your comments about “no club will survive” are exactly the type of rhetoric ATF would love to hear.I also strongly disagree.

    I give credit to the accountant in some obscure DOJ post who did a decent sales job on his or her superiors in an attempt to float forfeiture of a 1% patch as an asset under RICO. It is innovative. However, Federal bureaucracies are not immune to “fad prosecutions” – trends that come and go- and I believe this to be such a “fad”.

    Remember, the easy part is drawing up the charges, getting a judicial rubber stamp and making the arrests.

    It is of particular note that the High Court in Canada recently ruled that that government’s attempts to discriminate against a 1% club were illegal.

    I don’t know your background, but you can do a Google news archive search and verify that for at least the last 35 years, every “major” multiple indictment against any well known 1% club was always considered the “death” of said club.

    This is “feel good” law enforcement at its best. It is also egotism at its worst. The aspect of SWAT teams breaking into private vehicles to confiscate t shirts, etc., is just so beyond chicken shit, I cannot fathom it.

    Historically, clubs always rebuild; stronger and wiser. I think 40-50 years of this should be enough to see whop is really winning.

  71. Anonymous Says:

    check these links out for examples of clubs banding together to fight improper laws.

  72. DOCB Says:

    Check out the link below. We’re more than a little concerned

  73. Not Surprised Says:


    Pretty standard fare. The gang database is “GangNet”. I urge you to visit their site and become familiar with it. Though I do not think it currently has national applications, that capability is in the software.

    States use it a lot. A whole lot. Thing is, there are currently no known laws to prevent one being entered as an “associate”.

    As stated earlier, states are attempting to launch their own “mini RICO” laws since Federal “anti gang legislation” has been limited to throwing tax dollars at various states.

    I would also urge you to visit the sites of both your states “gang task force” as well as regional task forces. Get to know the names and rank of these people………and what counties they are located in. These will be the people who “testify” or give written data to the legislators.

    Keep after it DOCB….you have my support and total repesct

  74. sled tramp Says:

    “A creed or belief”
    Well, THAT certainly opens the field of possibilities….
    Oh fuckin’ goody.

  75. DOCB Says:

    Not Suprised
    Thanks for the kind words, we’ll keep strokin’ it
    Here’s another eye opener site

  76. 10Guage Says:

    “The Clubs need to go to a different business model. If the Fed’s are that intent on snatching a clubs colors, let them have it. Coming up with a new sort of “free floating anxiety” symbol concept can be done start to finish in a week”…..WTF? You are kidding right? I’m looking for the punch line…”Yakuza Style” FOUND IT…Give me a Fuckin Break. Men have faught, lost their freedom, and died for these colors. You don’t get it.

  77. Doc Jones Says:

    I’m recovering from shoulder surgery and I have a lot of time on my hands right now. At this particular time I’m a little buzzed on my prescribed pain pills. Here’s a little story that popped into my head.
    Keep in mind that this is a story that I made up but I think there’s a message in it somewhere……

    My name is Cavazos. I was raised on the streets and I know how to handle myself and all of the ways of the street. I am very much aware of street gangs and was a member of one. THEN, I saw this badass motorcycle club and I wanted to join so I could be one of the baddest motherfuckers around. I patched in and worked my way to the top. Oh, by the way, did I mention that this club was around a lot longer before I joined? Whatever!! Anyway, I managed to piss off a bunch of people and many of the old timers quit the club because they didn’t like the way that I was leading the club. Fuck them, they were just scooter tramps anyway. I on the other hand am brilliant and progressive. I own this club…… because I said so. It’s all mine…. because I said so.I am the KING!! Everything belongs to me!! I own the patch….. because I said so!! If everyone was like me it would be a much better world, but, there’s only one me and I’m the best….. because I said so.

    The other day the cops busted me. It’s no big deal because I’m so brilliant that I can beat anything….. because I said so!! CRAP….the feds know more than I thought they did. They are taking my home, my bikes and the rest of my cool stuff, hell, they are scaring me because they say that I will be put away for a long time. FUCK THAT!! I’m too wonderful to have to do my time like those punk ass old timer tramps who keep their mouths shut and do their time and put the club first. Stupid fuckers!!

    I have my plan in place to keep me afloat because I’m so wonderful and I deserve the best….because I said so.

    The club is mine which means that I own everything including the patch and everything else….because I said so.

    I am now giving the whole club, patch, members and everything else that the club has to the cops because it all belongs to me anyway…..because I said so.

    Now I can work a deal and get paid some money and start a brand new life and all I had to do was give the cops the club that I own. It’s all cool my brothers and sisters because I’m giving up what’s mine…… because I said so.

    By the way, if you doubt what I’m saying, just ask the cops.They have accepted what I have given them because they know it all belonged to me…… because I said so. I am a very important man. The cops know that thay can destroy my club because I have given them permission to do whatever they want…….all because I said so.

  78. Mikonos Says:

    Yakuza is a “true” organized crime syndicate from low level street crimes to the highest levels of government and industry. American street gangs are fundamentally organized crime syndicates built around drug dealing. The Mafia is an organized crime syndicate. The primary organizing principles are criminal. The Mafia is not an Italian mens club that by the way, is involved in some small scale criminal activities.

    Motorcycle clubs (not gangs…that distinction is important) historically have organized themselves around brotherhood, bikes, and shared values. The primary shared values are not criminal.

    The problem is when the two organizing forms are mixed together. Either within the clubs (Doc Jones is spot on), or when law enforcement lumps them together.

  79. Detroit Dutch Says:

    All of this concerns me greatly. I am a retired US Marine and upon returning to my home state and city joined the club that I grew up wanting to be a member of. Between when I left and returned what the heck happened?

    I served a career fighting for the principles that made the US free and under a constitution that I thought was fair and balanced. I twice feed the tree of freedom with my blood (reference to Thomas Jefferson) and lived to enjoy what?

    Our club joined the CoC here in the State of Michigan in order to fight the injustices that have been launched upon us by (it seems) everything and everybody who wears a badge. Look FEDs, WE are not the enemy here, in fact we are the furthest thing from being the enemy our country is facing. Most of US are Veterans! and have been since returning from WW2.

    What we need to do is organize together and launch an offensive against “our” enemy. It is only “together we ride” and together we must join to accomplish this mission.

    My wish list or New Years resolution:

    1)Take “stock” in our brothers and remind each other (behind bars or any of those that need help) that they have half of whatever we have. I know this statement has been over used but I think it has become a cliche’ in modern times. Help our brothers who have problems with addictions, money and other issues that make them “less” of a brother. First we have to get strong.

    2)We need to put the American Flag in each and every club house from coast to coast. Before our meetings we should say the Pledge of Allegiance and start out all the time like this. Bottom line here is that the American Flag is ours! It isn’t the government’s or the pig’s or anybody, it is ours, the American People’s symbol of a living and breathing democracy. In the middle of everything we need to be grounded and “show” to everyone that under this flag we have survived 233 years and each and everyone of us pledge to keeping it that way. Perception to civilians is everything, and this is one thing we can get behind right away. Look if the shit hit the fan and we were invaded tomorrow wouldn’t each and everyone of us stand up to the invader?

    3)Officers have put their good name and reputation on the line for many years and have paid the price (as in the events from the 36’s recently) and they are stand up guys and everything. But look if they fall and plead out the damage is done, and yes I realize they did so others could be free. Again that is righteous and stand up way to do it but it effects each and every one of us when the issue was plain and clear. Look we need to clean out the club house. If brothers are staying there who need help (as in #1 above) then maybe they should stay some where else and take the heat away from the other brothers. I’m not saying do this and do that, heck every body can do as they wish, but try it in their own HOUSE. I should be the one who says this and I was one that did this as a teenager, I hid my stash of weed in a hallowed out St Mary statue from my own mother, and got caught! After getting my ass kicked by both my mom and dad I learned not to stash my stuff in my parent’s house.

    4)We live in an Atta-boy and AH-shit world. If we do something it is on the front page of the paper or lead story at 6 o’clock. We can try to get behind a few more atta-boys in the future and try like hell to avoid the AH-shits and we’d be better for for it. Look around your community and do something good and “wear your cut” get pictures taken and show up for ceremonies and stuff. Make sure the local media sees us there and “remind them” to be sure to show us. Hey turn around is fair play and they have sold enough commercial time and ad space showing our AH-shits, time for reciprocity. If they don’t lets make sure there is some place we can not only show the good we did but also the biased media that paints an all too dismal look at our lifestyle.

    5)Join your state’s (or region) Confederation of Clubs, get active and be sure to join in the [US] Defenders program being launched right now. We have access to the same electronic medium that has influenced many elections in recent years. This time lets join together “electronically” and show what force we really do have. Log on to and become members of our local newspaper’s web sites and make positive comments about our lifestyle and reject comments negative to us or those who wish us harm. And keep at it! Don’t let them have the upper hand and back down. Look everything we stand for is etched in the “Constitution” and anybody who is against us must be against the Constitution! Let them be the bad guys here.

    6)Recruit only qualified people and not just those who want to ride along. Watch out for spies and plants who have no references or reasons to ride except “they want to.” We all have our ways of identifying FED’s among us, don’t be rushed or bamboozled into allowing the enemy “within.” Take pictures of hang arounds or prospects and if you expel them let us all know who they are, why you did this, and give us a picture of them. I know we all have our ways of getting our colors back but you might want to video this procedure for use later in court if, the FED cry baby, says that he was assaulted while his patch was being pulled. We are smarter then they are, we have more common sense then they do, and we are united by more means then they are (the FED’s are in it for a pay check, this is in our blood)

    7)Last but not least, we have to stop the war between us. Most of this crap was planted and manifested by the FED’s to divide and then conquer. My experience in the Marine Corps (as a Staff Non-Commissioned Officer) fighting in just about every place under the sun, has given me inspiration to renew my fellow American’s. If I can trust an Arab that I have taught to fight for his country, hopefully I can at least ask you to fight for yours! We are all brothers in the wind and except for a few differences we all bleed the same color and this is what I’m talking about. We need to fight this misconception that we can’t get along. We need to leave the guns at home when we are at a fist fight. If we loose then so be it, we live to fight another day, we get up, clean up and go about our business. We need to leave the snitching and guns at home for their proper place and time. Stand up and fight like a man does. We do not need to shoot each other. If you see a brother can’t hold his own in a fist fight then get him the hell out of there. When he reaches for a piece, instead of fighting, tell him to “Man UP.” Take him to the gym and help him work out and get his act together. We have to get to the point that if you pull a gun out your a sissy, and this should be recognized as such. I did it every week in the Marine Corps, before liberty for weekend we had what is called “Bull in the Ring.” We accounted for all the sissy’s in the past week. Also built our hand to hand skills. Sure I have about 8 teeth knocked out, but this is how we “ROLL”

  80. Jabba Says:

    “If the Fed’s are that intent on snatching a clubs colors, let them have it.”

    Many years ago I didn’t prospect for the club I wanted to join. I wanted to join that club so fuckin’ bad I could taste it. It fuckin’ hurt.

    What I wanted as much, more, was my wife and the kids I hadn’t got at the time. But i didn’t prospect because I knew that what I would have to give to the club would be more than she could stand. She’d already said as much.

    Not what the club would REQUIRE me to give by the way, but what I would have to give to the club in order to look at myself in the mirror and know I deserved the patch. If I couldn’t say to myself that I deserved the patch, then I wouldn’t wear it.

    So here I am now, too old to prospect now and, as a result, locked out of a club I would die to protect and supporting brothers I would die for given a chance. I’m telling you that the colours are as important to me as the beautiful woman in my life and the kids I watch leave the house every morning, AND I WOULD FUCKING DIE FOR ALL OF THEM.

    The “let them have it” idea is a fucking abomination to me… and I can’t even fly the colours!

    Going to have to find a different “business model”? This idea won’t fly because we’re not talking about a fucking business.

    Clubs and colours are like countries and flags. People fight for what they believe in, they’ll die for what they believe in. Ever wondered why clubs attract so many veterans? Brotherhood, loyalty, a shared ideal worth fucking dying for – ideals which, sadly, don’t seem to be that popular in the UK any more; but I’ll tell you what, talk about them in a clubhouse, anywhere in the world, and everybody’ll know what you mean.

    Much respect to our host, Doc, 10Guage, Sled Tramp – couldn’t agree more with your sentiments above.



    Hey sled Tramp – did that little lot just show me to be an uptight Brit?

  81. sled tramp Says:

    Ya know…I was just sitting down with a cup of Irish tea to read the site comments and was attempting to answer how absolutely spot on you are.Word for word uou could almost be describing myself with the exception that I left a club when my second generation came along in the mid nineties. Due to my life choices, I don’t really remember my oldest kids growing up.I was busy with what at the time,I saw as a higher commitment.
    “Not what the club would REQUIRE me to give by the way, but what I would have to give to the club in order to look at myself in the mirror and know I deserved the patch. If I couldn’t say to myself that I deserved the patch, then I wouldn’t wear it.

    So here I am now, too old to prospect now and, as a result, locked out of a club I would die to protect and supporting brothers I would die for given a chance. I’m telling you that the colours are as important to me as the beautiful woman in my life and the kids I watch leave the house every morning, AND I WOULD FUCKING DIE FOR ALL OF THEM”.
    I moved to a small rural town in the middle of nowhere as my inclination to return to my old lifestyles is a strong fire and I wanted a safe place to raise my kids.
    As regards “Uptight”. LMAO…
    Since I’ve pissed off New Zealand… (HEY! YOU try traveling with a N.Z. stamp on your passport that says “Not to be around farm animals”).
    I have dual citizenship in the UK.Scotland/N.Ireland/Wales and England.
    As my parentage is N. Ireland (Derry and Antrim) and mum was born on the banks of the Clyde in Glasgow -prior to the Luftwaffe going into the remodeling business-I have a certain love of your islands.But honestly, being Scottish and Irish, I tend to mentally lean towards Australians.Wonder why? Oh yeah, because I can drink copius amounts without effect and I’ll fuck a snake if I can get it to stand still for a millisecond. :-)
    sled tramp

  82. Jabba Says:

    Oh yeah, snakes… but how the fuck do you manage to last that LONG?

    Tippin’ a glass to your health.


  83. Jabba Says:

    Oh yeah, snakes… but how the fuck do you last that LONG?

    Tippin’ a glass to your health.


  84. Jabba Says:

    Sorry for the duplicate post – posted once and it seemed to disappear, so I repeated… now I can’t see either post, but the list on the home page says I’ve posted twice. tried clearing my browser cache, no joy.

    Rebel! Help! Sort this newbie dickhead out please!

    In the UK I was a college IT lecturer… time to give up and carry on drinking I think.

    Much LL&R



    WOW !! no response to Detroit Dutch remarks one way or the other .

  86. Rebel Says:

    Dear Detroit Dutch,

    Nice post. Mostly agree with you. I think we all have a common enemy. Personally, I think the outlaw world (I know some guys hate the term outlaw — no offense) is the last of the American frontier. Until sometime after Vietnam the values of the frontier were synonymous with American values. And, that is not the case anymore.

    I have been around longer than some mountains and I will tell you flat out that this subculture is much, much less violent, rude and dangerous than it was 30 years ago. It is like night and day. This subculture as a whole has gotten much older and wiser. And, at the same time police harassment has gotten much, much worse.

    your pal,

  87. Rebel Says:

    Dear Anarchy Factory,

    Detroit Dutch wrote a great comment and nobody argued with him because most people agreed with him. And web traffic has been a little slow around here for the last week or so. So not as many people saw it as would have a couple of weeks ago.

    your pal,

  88. Rebel Says:

    Dear Jabba,

    You’re doing fine. You don’t need me to straighten you out.

    It is about 75 degrees here, right now, by the way. Here on the balmy shores of the Pacific. Just thought you might want to know.

    your pal,

  89. Jabba Says:

    Many thanks Rebel – “balmy shores of the pacific”??!! Just got in from clearing the snow from the drive for the fifth time today, and there’s an eight minute frost-bite warning in place for any exposed flesh anybody cares to flash. WTF am I doing here?

    Though by all accounts, the UK aint doing any better at the moment.

    Couldn’t agree more with what our host said about Detroit Ducth’s post, but could’ve sworn that post wasn’t in the list of comments when I posted. Like the ideas, just trying to imagine the practicalities of putting that into place (all “misconceptions” aside).

    Police harrassment is also much wiser, individual LEO’s can be stupid, but the system has grown and evolved into something that is so fucking biased and stacked against a defendant as to be mind-blowing – US, Canada, UK or Australia.

    Doesn’t seem to make any difference if you have a constitution to fuck over or not.

    If an LEO wants to stick it to you, or there’s some lying fuck pretending to be worthy of a patch, and willing to make shit up as they go, then it’s only a solid club with true brothers, brains and a fucking good legal defence that’ll get you out of it… and as we’ve seen on these pages, even the best legal defence can’t help much if you’re shit out of luck at the Justice Casino.



  90. Doc Jones Says:

    Detroit Dutch,
    I agree with you. I’ve said similar things for awhile now. I was at the point of thinking that it’s all a pipe dream and just because I think the way I do, too many others don’t even give it a thought. However, if one then another and another ext. say the same things, maybe the idea will gather some steam. I think greed is a main sticking point. I also think that some of the clubs are more into business deals and are moving away from the true spirit of a tramp. I’m proud to say that I’m a tramp. Sometimes I’ll get asked why I call myself a tramp. It’s simple…..a tramp is at home wherever he is and a tramp always takes care of his own. Sounds good to me!! You seem to have your head on straight and I agree with the way you think. Thank you for your great post. You explained things in a way that is very understandable and makes great sense!!

  91. Anonymous Says:

    Detroit Dutch-
    If there were 49 more of you (one in each state), life would be grand. Keep trying to build a better future for all of us. Things certainly need to change.

  92. Docb Says:

    Dear Rebel:
    this subculture is much, much less violent, rude and dangerous than it was 30 years ago. It is like night and day

    I agree 100%, and I also believe that the great herd of society has become ruder, and more violent and dangerous as a whole.

    Don’t understand any of it.

    Doc Jones;
    Your first post, a few months ago, stood out and I’ve paid attention to each one since. I’ve not commented on anything you’ve said because I agree with the way you think and can’t find anything meaningfull to add. You express old school values and principles. It’s refreshing. Thanks

    Detroit Dutch:
    I agree with your post, and you said it a lot better than I could. It has to start somewhere. Semper-Fi

  93. Docb Says:

    “Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.”
    Harry S Truman, August 8, 1950

    Fuckin’ A

  94. Associate Says:

    Wonder if I can get my HA shirt back now?

  95. Docb Says:

    Dear Doc Jones and Detroit Dutch

    A man named Gimmy Jimmy helped start US Defenders. You can work through your COC to find out more about it. Mr Jimmy will be speaking at our meeting in KY on the 16th of this month. Check out the web site if you want.

    There’s a lot of politics involved in getting a bunch of clubs together, it’s becomming more important every day. If todays trend in law enforcement is Rico and State Gang Laws, tomorrows trend will be prosecution under Homeland Security terrorist legislation. Think about it, many clubs have international associations.

    At the risk of sounding like a fuckin’ hippy, I’d like to see clubs come together too. I’m not a very good “politico”, but I know guys that are and I’m willing to do background work in the trenches for them.

    Just think about the power of clubs for a minute. What if each charter had one guy whose job was to keep track of issues. He could for instance write one letter per issue, and each member sign a seperate copy and mail them in. The power of a grass roots letter writing campain of this magnitude is overwelming. It doesn’t matter that an individual member has too many “F”s to vote, They don’t check each letter against your record.

    In Kentucky last year they tried to reinstate the helmet law for all riders. It was defeated because a lot of KMA/KBA bikers individually got on the phones and wrote letters. In the words of the proponents of the bill, it failed because “bikers came out of the woodwork”. No shit

    Most of us are defiant by nature. It’s just in our DNA. Most of us are more comfortable on the attack than we are in a defence position. We just need to find a way to attack all together. I really like Detroit Dutches comments above. Good stuff to think about.

    Rebel: thanks for letting me preach


  96. Doc Jones Says:

    Hey Doc,
    I read the site you mentioned and it sounds pretty damn good. The value of the Defenders could turn out to be tremendous!! I live in Northern California and we do have a confederation of clubs but the Defenders sounds like a much needed organization which addresses all areas of bikers. Thanks for the Information!!

  97. Biker Bob Says:

    Everybody needs to keep their mouths shut and stand strong and unfortunately let the lawyers do all the fighting. We are now living in a country that has extremely limited freedoms and we are run by a totalitarian regime that is hell bent on total oppressive control. We all know the real organized crime syndicate is the US Government and their enforcers are the Law Extortion Officers who are set free to murder lie rape and do anything to destroy any shard of free thinking free Americans.

  98. Detroit Dutch Says:

    Thank you for your words of encouragement. Semper Fi Doc- Corpsman?

    I am the Vice Commander in The State of Michigan [US] Defenders. Yes it is administered through the CoC here in this state. I plan on attending the National Convention in the Spring at Orlando Florida.

    L & R

    Detroit Dutch
    LRMC- Detroit

  99. DOCB Says:

    Dear Detroit Dutch

    Late reply, I’ve been out for a few days and just now getting caught up.
    Corpsman? No ….. Aircraft mechanic and door gunner.
    Got the road name “Doc” as a kid before I knew what a road was.

    There is a seperate part of the US Defenders for independant bikers too and it works through the Coalition of Independant Bikers ( C.O.I.R ). The COC is the backbone though since it works with the professional 1% bikers in the clubs.

    The COC in Kentucky voted the US Defenders in last week end, and the COIR got started too.

    You sound like a good pick for Vice Commander and good luck with it all.

    Much Respect

  100. whitefxrp Says:

    i ve been browsing this site for a while and see a lot of positive comments regarding most stuff thats being discussed in all the threads here.i would like to hear what people here, think about whats happening in oz,i.e the illegal organisation bs,and perhaps some parts of the usa and maybe to a lesser extent canada and europe,regarding clubs and their activities,as i see it as a “test” to gauge what the gov in australia can achieve,and therefore other govs can use it as a measure for what they can or cannot use against us and our is very positive that the clubs in oz are “coming together” to fight this issue,which in my opinion, will be become worldwide, and i think it is the way forward for everybody concerned,whatever club you ride with or support

  101. Apostle Says:

    There are 37 defendants who have not pled guilty in the WV Pagans case, and 95% of them are represented by CJA (criminal justice Act) panel attorneys, who are paid to represent indigent defendants. The CJA attorneys are putting on a unified defense – as much as is possible without losing sight of each individual defendant’s right to make decisions right for him in his own case. Taxpayer cost to defend these trumped-up crimes for 56 (original) defendants may approach $4-5 million if the court elects a single trial.

  102. Doc Jones Says:

    I just watched a clip of Judge Napolitano describing how two FBI agents armed with a hand written search warrant searched a place of business run by two 80 something and 70 something year old women. This was allowed under the Patriot Act. The lady who was served the search warrant was warned not to tell anyone about being searched. NOT EVEN AN ATTORNEY OR LAW ENFOREMENT!! She told the other lady “look at this shit” and handed her the hand written search warrant. The lady was promptly arrested, appeared in court and the case was dismissed. However, the feds continue to abuse their power and due to the Patriot Act are allowed to do so. Judge Napolitano talks about this on YouTube!! This is real!! Check it out!!

  103. Doc Jones Says:

    Oh yeah, here’s the site…..


  104. Vacuus Cura Says:

    Doc Jones,

    Judge Andrew Napolitano (not to be confused with the scumbag DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano) is a good man. Thanks for sharing the story and video.

    Vacuus Cura

  105. JAMES Says:

    GOOD LUCK TO THE “PAGANS M.C.” may you in your fight to stay free.

  106. sawedoff5 Says:

    The club stopped burying their members in their colors years ago because the Feds were digging them up and taking them for their own purposes. (going to other areas wearing them and starting trouble with other clubs). They also like hanging them in their museums for trophies.
    It’s something I never agreed with. But it was a practical leadership decision.
    I was always more passionate than practical. The Pagan’s colors are in the Smithsonian. I saw a set for sale by some dude in England on ebay. It wasn’t up on ebay for very long. The word spread like wildfire and it was gone in 1 day. I often wonder how that dude’s doing. Tee hee.

  107. lesson learned Says:

    how sad, perpetrating. you were just playing Pagan, jesse! i hope you get what u deserve and thats gettin stuck like the rat u r, from the bro’s that u sold out! thats one of the reasons i got out of the club it was full of lames like him. i fought with more Pagans than i did with other clubs. it could have been a GREAT club.

  108. Justme Says:

    JMO back a very long time ago there were many different tribes of people all over the land we call america, all these tribes were so busy fighting and killing each other and refusing to change with the times that low and behold here comes some dudes from another country and took their country from them, now just think for a minute had all the tribes banned together im sure there would have been a different outcome.
    There are so many different MC’s today that claim the same thing (Brotherhood, good times, riding together etc….) its hard to say how many people there would be fighting for a common cause if agreements could be reached among all clubs.

  109. Sawedoff5 Says:

    LL is right about one thing. Patched 16s spend most of their time fighting amongst themselves. I’ve lived it and seen it.
    Dumbest shit you ever saw. They spend all their time on the phone to each other, stabbing each other in the back. It’s full time and all the time. Not one is concerned about the club being what it began as.
    You have a better chance of being hurt by a bro and his gossip, than you do from another club.

  110. SIEGFRIED SS Says:

    I am a 64yr. old biker, with some 250,000 miles on my bod; with the titainium joints to prove it!
    Being an “EX” Brother to two clubs in my life, and NOT BEING A FED SPY!!, OUR OWN GOVERNMENT IS OUT TO DESTROY YOUR LIVES & FAMILIES.
    I am deeply troubled by what is going on in OUR COUNTRY; for, as in a former post, “out liberties are in danger”.
    One might call the Federal Court System:”THE PEOPLE’S COURT” al-a what
    other “political system” had a VOLKISHE GEREICHT (people’s court)?
    This business of taking one’s “goods & chattels” WITHOUT DUE PROCESS is
    going to ruin this nation. Stealing “legal-like” of BROTHERS PATCHES has

  111. Dragon Says:


  112. 8ball-kmc Says:

    What has happened is history, we all got our own , greed , coveting one anothers shit, letting assholes in the club that shouldn’t have got a patch, infighting over dumbshit, etc,etc,We all know the pride of ridin and flyin, and being a P/H, and doing what we wanted when and to whom whenever we wanted.WE all were the badest asphalt animal alive. Just like the indians to a degree. But now the governments got us in their sights , and those days are gone. Shit ,I saw sonny b on that bad biker show , where they wear tennis shoes,we WERE part of history…and now it’s all over. Sure there will still be 1%ers, but half of them are feds,or some other stinkin cocksuck! It was a great time to be alive. But for me , it’s …history. Ride hard,die young.

  113. who cares Says:

    this is a warning to those that think its a game or just cool. as i am of the younger generation than my dads and easily could just be a product of, think hard. put it on and own it. be a man stand up. i have seen what my dad loved and stood for turn into something else. you can be just as bad on your own. bcuz thats where it starts. if you cant be the same man by yourself or with 20 people behind you then dont bother. bcuz when that cell door shuts its just you there. and it will. what was no longer is. its just the facts. and if you cant deal with someone elses greed or agenda then sucks to be you. make no mistake about it. its awesome to ride and thers no other feeling like it but dont kid yourself about the sacrifice your going to make for that privilege. if it even is that anymore. bcuz half of what i see punks that cant even stare me in my face on their own.

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