Mongol Nation Opinions Sought

January 16, 2019

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Mongol Nation Opinions Sought

The Mongol Nation forfeiture verdict last week, in which a dozen ordinary men and women in suburban Los Angeles, were convinced by a pair of scalawag prosecutors to forbid members of the Mongols Motorcycle Club from wearing what they want to wear, was far from the final word on the subject.

Given the technical complexity of the legal issues inherent to the case – like, for example, the fine points of conspiracy, the capacity of an abstract entity to feel guilt and RICO “distinctness” – it is probable that nobody thinks the verdict was good law that should now be followed in every court everywhere.

Fat Lady Remains Silent

The legality of the verdict is now up to the presiding judge, the formidable and widely respected David O. Carter. On February 28, Carter will hold a hearing on both the propriety of the guilty verdict the jury returned against “Mongol Nation” in December and the forfeiture verdict the jury returned last week.

As difficult as it is for people in a hurry or on deadline to understand, nothing will really be decided until sometime after Carter holds his motion hearing. At this point it looks like the government has scored a huge propaganda victory but lost the case.

Amicus Briefs

Mongol Nation is now entirely in Carter’s hands. He has the job of making a momentous decision with wide ranging implications. Today, in a proceeding in his chambers that is unlikely to be widely noticed, Carter solicited legal advice.

He issued an “Amicus Invitation” that invited “interested members of the public” to submit amicus curiae briefs” discussing three legal issues.

The Latin phrase refers to a “friend of the court” who is not a party to a case but who, out of the goodness of his heart, shares his expertise or insight into that case in the form of a brief.

The issues are:

“Whether criminal forfeiture of any and all legal and equitable rights of any kind or nature associated with or appurtenant to a collective membership mark violates the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.”

“Whether forfeiture of a collective membership mark is feasible under intellectual property law.”

“Whether an unincorporated association is legally capable of committing the crimes of murder and/or attempted murder.”

This might be an appropriate time for the American Civil Liberties Union and for various lawyers who unabashedly describe themselves as “Biker Rights Attorneys” to step up.


24 Responses to “Mongol Nation Opinions Sought”

  1. david Says:

    Timbs v Indiana, U.S.Supreme Ct., on civil forfeiture.

  2. david Says:

    The two prosecutors probably could not hit their own asses with a wide board. To feel like winners,maybe this is the reason they joined the ranks of federal prosecutors who have a 99% conviction rate.

    The German Nazi’s had a 90% conviction rate for Jews. This gov. possibly has the highest conviction rate of any gov., ever.

    The inevitable economic crash and burn will lead to civil disobedience in the U.S. 300,000 Europeans in France alone, have already taken to the streets in protest of economic inequality. The U.S. economic protests are not far off.
    The so-called powers that be may or may not be surprised when people begin to publicly let the freaks who now run the gov. know they have had enough.

  3. Kelly Says:

    I think many are missing the bigger picture here. Been a patch holder for fifty years seen a lot and things have definitely changed but that’s no surprise. I think what your missing is the big picture of the political changes taking place in this country as we advance towards socialism. The powers that be know they can never control us or recruit us to take part in socialism, it is the antithesis ofwhat we stand for. They also know the we would be the strongest enemy of their agenda as well as being the most competent. We would have to put aside, however temporarily the differences between clubs and work together to defeat a common enemy, if we do not they will continue to come after the clubs one after another to try and destroy our potential for being their biggest threat.

  4. JustSaying Says:

    This might be an appropriate time for the American Civil Liberties Union and for various lawyers who unabashedly describe themselves as “Biker Rights Attorneys” to step up.
    I see a lot of propaganda and key chains and t-shirts at events. Interesting to see who steps up. Interesting to see next time I’m offered a shirt.

  5. Willie Says:

    Time to be paranoid .everybody next if this goes through..but you kbow what.when we all have our secret handshake and religousdays .they wont be able to prosecute our religion….think on it ..we go to church.we pay dues..our charters.non for profit

  6. david Says:

    Another issue not raised, yet. Whether an unincorporated association of people can be considered a for-profit, or not-for-profit, business subject to forfeiture.

  7. Hellequiain Says:

    Maybe we’re lucky enough to have lived through, and are now witnessing the end of, the Golden Age of Motorcycling….

    Motorcycling has changed. I got my first bike in 77,like many on here I have no time or interest in modern stuff, but I’m a minority. Riding is no longer the sign of a Rebel, an outlaw. It’s a leisure activity, with all the marketing and shit that comes with it. Look at the average ages and the numbers riding in the different schools of biking. For every old guy riding a custom, in a club, aware of our history, how many young bucks are there who don’t give a flying fuck?

    Society hs changed. Massive advances in technology, standards of living, peoples expectations and attitudes towards others, not always for the good. An acceptance of, and willingness not to question, the huge amounts of propoganda and disinformation fed through the new technology. Attention spans of goldfish before they move on…

    Young people have changed, again, not for the better in most cases. Hugely different attitudes, behaviours and expectations….. Maybe this has affected the calibre of recruits into the Clubs and, over time, as they have achieved positions of authority and leadership, led to the current situation.

    Against this background, maybe the Clubs are an evolutionary dead end, doomed to extinction, brought on by the above, hastened by their inability to adapt to and unite against the glaringly obvious threat before them.

    Maybe the packs of hoodie wearing sports and dirt bikers we see on YouTube, owning the highway and taunting the cops are the natural evolution? The 1%ers of the 21st Century?

    Maybe we have to accept the fact that we are an anachronism to the vast majority of society, and, when we pass, there will be none to replace or mourn us. And that isn’t that far away…….. All we can do is ride our ageing classics as long as we can, support each other in our decline and let nature take its course.


  8. What Ever Says:

    I agree Rebel. Many Federal judges are strict constitutionalists. They are weary of the slippery slope of litigating groups into being defined as “criminal”. Personally, I’ve faired very well in the federal court system and almost every judge I had saw the USAA and the various federal agent as the black booted thugs that they are.

  9. Penguin Says:

    In my previous I gave a url for Binney’s talk, this here is better >

    He specifically says, inter alia, that DEA and local cops are in the loop…and speaks of parallel construction in prosecution strategies

    If the corrupt legal system fails with one method, they don’t disappear, they try another tactic…and what Binney’s said makes it clear that they’ll have you yourself cold solid if you even say a word. One word and they can claim an attempt to pervert, etc…

  10. Penguin Says:

    @Bako1% I sometimes hear from people my own age, or nearly my age, people whose youth was a club-family environment, that the clubs generally (and there must be exceptions to this, or I hope there are!) that the clubs generally no longer have the excellence of character that they once did. Often I hear “punks!”

    At Summer time BBQ parties I have formed similar opinions, with some exceptions. Two of my pals gave up their patch because of similar views.

    Myself, I would point out that this evident decline in character toward “punk” behavior is not limited to motorcycle clubs…in fact the place the decline into punk-hood character is possibly seen most clearly and ominously in the members of that great club The Bar itself, and again in the lesser club of cops…

    I agree with the expert, Rebel, who has looked thoughtfully at Judge Carter. Carter may be an anachronism, but he is not a punk. I have observed that the best judges are often assigned for political purposes to domestic relations or traffic…so as to free corrupt persons to try more serious matters.

    Somewhat off topic, but relevant to Law because, rather often, it is perverted. A quote>

    “Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”— William Pitt

    This quote was in an article about constitution-free zone USA, aka “die heimat” as their nazi hero used to call his country…

    Defining the “Zone” >

    The ex NSA boffin, Wm Binney has explained that the piggish types record and share everything…so? So expect new tactics from punk lawyers…more “paralleled construction”, more evasion, more curated lies…

  11. Bako1%er Says:

    Maybe if they stop patching in Fucking Lames,like There doing with the Kinfolk in Texas, there wouldn’t be an issue.

    Leadership has failed the club. That’s the sole reason for this whole thing happening

  12. Bird Dog Mutt Says:

    Thanks Rebel….

  13. growlingfhardt Says:


    “Whether an unincorporated association is legally capable of committing the crimes of murder and/or attempted murder.”

    “Whether forfeiture of a collective membership mark is feasible under intellectual property law.”

    Lets us begin, with all the Treaties the US Government broke with the Native American Indians. Then the RICO enterprise, the Bush, Clinton, Obama -Kharzarian Mafia; that assassinated JFK, imported thousands of tons of cocaine into Mena Arkansas, engineered 9/11, passed the Patriot Act and the NDAA, planned to invade and regime change 7 countries in 5 years (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran, NKorea, #7?), then using the Democrats installed an illegitimate President and his transvestite/transsexual wife, and did the Libya and Syria attacks. The Kharzarian Mafia and the Clinton Foundation are the RICO enterprise, the US Government and the Democratic and Republican parties are the RICO persons. Therefore: the Donkey and the Elephant must be seized in all the forms in which they are displayed. Until that is done, the Mongols shall continue.

    First Amendment

    “Whether criminal forfeiture of any and all legal and equitable rights of any kind or nature associated with or appurtenant to a collective membership mark violates the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.”

    Is the USA going to be adherent to its stated Principles ? That is the only real question. If not, then the often used photo of the backside of the US Capitol building with its potted palm trees is truly representative of the ‘banana republic’ it will have become.

  14. Mad Midget Says:

    Commonsense, you couldn’t have said it better. Nor could you, Rebel. Thank you for sticking around for us, and all you do. I’ll donate again before the end of the month.

  15. commonsense Says: of the reasons I come to this site is your factual interpretation on what you report. As an avid reader I don’t want to read a far left or far right opinion. It’s propaganda. Your comment about the judge may offend some people but it shows me you see all sides. A sign of a good journalist which is lacking at the highest level these days.

  16. Anonymous Says:

    “He issued an “Amicus Invitation” that invited “interested members of the public” to submit amicus curiae briefs” discussing three legal issues.”

    Imagine that, if judge carter keeps this up, people might start thinking that this is a government by the people for the people.

  17. Otto Fischer III Says:

    This aggression will not stand.

  18. freebird Says:

    A Man who has earned and deserves the word Honorable before his name

    Very rare in this day and age…..

  19. Rebel Says:

    Dear Dasein,

    I don’t think the never-ending, Obama birther debate is at all pertinent to Mongol Nation. I have been watching Carter for eight or nine years. I think he is frequently annoying. I have also found him to be brave, bright, humble, kind and hard working. He is nice to everybody but lawyers. I think he will rule in favor of Mongol Nation. The prosecutors will absolutely appeal his decision all the way to the Supreme Court. Carter knows that and he has made the rulings he has made in order to prevent a retrial. The Department of Justice caught him in a technicality the last time he dismissed this case. The Ninth Circuit ruled that there should have been a jury trial and the jury should have acted as if the issue of “RICO distinctness” was valid. Only after the trial, the Ninth basically ruled, when the issue was “ripe,” could Carter rule that distinctness was bogus and that the case should be dismissed. It is a very fine legal point.

    Carter has played this just the way the Ninth has told him to play it. He also intends to appeal-proof his directed verdict of acquital. Hence the request for amicus briefs.

    Believe me or not, this guy is a very tough old man who always does what he thinks is right. He doesn’t care what anybody thinks of him. He knows who the fuck he is. He has previously presided over trials against both La Eme and The Brand. He knows very well that the Mongols are neither the AB or the Black Hand. I understand people may not agree with him. But I don’t think his integrity, or his intelligence, can be doubted.


  20. Bobby Says:

    They cant fuck with the amvets.

  21. Dasein Says:

    He once had a chance to really stand up, but did not. Ironically, this seems to favor the Defendants here, as the case against them is also very much against the status quo.

  22. freebird Says:

    Judge David O. Carter appears to be channeling the spirit of General George G. Meade from early July 1863.

    Historians are still divided 156 years later just what kind of man he was….

    A visionary or a coward who could not make a decision

    I believe he was a visionary…..

  23. jrino Says:

    Actually the Moose, the Lions, the Elks, and the Shriners, should be writing letters… maybe Susan G. Corman with the pink tee shirts too.

  24. Woodstock Says:

    Don’t hold your breath.

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