Waco Massacre Aftermath

May 20, 2015

All Posts, News

Waco Massacre Aftermath

Yesterday in Texas, the Reverend Matthew Hagee, Executive Pastor of the Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, described last Sunday’s Waco massacre and its aftermath, including “all of these arrests of rival biker gangs” as “a sign of the end times.” It might have been the most interesting thing anybody said about the massacre all day.

As of this morning, at least 170 people were in custody on $1 million bond each and charged with “Engaging in Organized Criminal Activity.” One of them is a woman.

“I think it is important to send a message,” the Honorable Walter H. “Pete” Peterson, Justice of the Peace for the First Precinct, who set the bail amount said. “We had nine people killed in our community. These people just came in and most of them were from out of town. Very few of them were from in town.”

Swanton Speak

Three of the accused “organized criminals” turned themselves in after they were released on lower bonds. Sergeant Patrick Swanton, who has been acting as the chief press ringmaster since Sunday, said “They were not mistakenly released.” The three men were arrested Sunday when they arrived at the crime scene after all the shooting had stopped wearing motorcycle club insignia. They were searched and, according to Swanton, were found to be “carrying weapons.” They are now also being held on $1 million bond. Swanton did not know where.

Swanton did not know how many of the 11 wounded men who were released from local hospitals yesterday had been arrested. He also did not know how many, if any, of the dead men had been killed by police. “Is it possible,” Swanton asked rhetorically. “Yes. Is it a fact? No, because the autopsies are not complete.”

Swanton seems committed to a version of events in which only four of the 22 police officers on scene discharged their weapons. He said yesterday that those four remained on duty. “Typically, our first concern is the welfare and mental health of those officers,” Swanton explained. But, “because of the high threat level … we kept them here.”

Olivia Messer reported in the Waco Tribune-Herald today that police “have found 1,000 weapons tucked into kitchen areas, vehicles and toilets” in the Twin Peaks restaurant.

Months Or Years

The New York Times reported that the local jail and court system is clogged up with arrestees and that the court cases “could drag on for months and even years.”

Tales abound of factually innocent bikers who are being presumed guilty until proven innocent.

A defendant named Jeff Battey was the first defendant to post bail Wednesday morning. Battey “has bullet fragments lodged in his arms,” according to his lawyer, Seth Sutton. “He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time like many others who are innocent yet being held under that bond.” Sutton told Houston television station KRIV. “Law enforcement authorities are saying that, in this short amount of time, they’ve already gathered probable cause that these 200 people have participated in a plot to commit capital murder. That’s difficult for us to believe.” Battey must wear an electronic ankle monitor while he awaits the chance to clear his name. He is currently being treated in a Dallas hospital.

The Associated Press reports that Theron Rhoten, a mechanic from Austin, an antique motorcycle enthusiast and a member of the Vice Grip Motorcycle Club was arrested with two club brothers when he arrived at the site of the Confederation of Clubs meeting after the shooting stopped. The Vice Grips build, repair and ride pre-1970 Harley-Davidson Big Twins.

A retired, San Antonio vice detective named Marty Lewis, is among the accused “organized criminals” trying to raise $1 million bail.

Published reports indicate that Waco and McLennan County could realize more than $3 million from the sale of motorcycles and cars seized at the crime scene.

Gator’s Jam Inn

Meanwhile, multiple news outlets including the Daily Beast have begun to connect the dots between the massacre in the Twin Peaks parking lot and a shooting in Gator’s Jam Inn in Forth Worth last December 12. Geoffrey Brady, a member of the Ghostriders Motorcycle Club was killed and within days three Bandidos, Robert Stover, Howard Wayne Baker and Nicholas Povendo were charged with his murder. The Daily Beast reporter, M.L. Nestel speculates, “It’s unclear whether the deadly brawl in Fort Worth directly led to Sunday’s bloody battle outside the Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, Texas—or whether the two incidents were just loosely connected in a longer gang war.”

Nestel quotes an unnamed police source as saying, “The Gator’s incident was one of many and it all has to do with colors. They want to make sure the Bandidos go down.”

You can read the complete Daily Beast article here.

At the time of the Gator’s shooting, a source with knowledge of the incident told The Aging Rebel, “There has been a truce between the Bandidos and the Banshees and their brother club, the Ghostriders, for several years….  In recent years, it has been very amicable in the Dallas – Forth Worth area to the point of hand shakes and friendly games of pool between the opposing clubs, which was absolutely unheard of before.”

“The Ghostrider who was killed was the kind of man who would defuse a situation, not aggravate it. It makes no sense for him to be the one who got shot unless he stepped in to calm people down.”

“I think the shit is about to get nasty down here,” the source said. “I believe it had to be started by a Fed or some sort of agent provocateur. Too many inroads to a peaceful coexistence have happened for this to be anything else.”

The Aging Rebel investigated the incident but was unable to confirm that a federal investigation involving the Bandidos was underway.

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91 Responses to “Waco Massacre Aftermath”

  1. Roland Deshain Says:

    Bimbo reporter says police found over 1000 weapons hidden in the kitchen, bathrooms and in vehicles. With 170 “participants” that is over 5 weapons per person. Did they include the kitchen knives? What do the po-pos classify as a weapon? This whole story reeks of gov involvement!!!!

  2. Chainsaw Says:

    Many thanks Rebel for your reporting the story from the “other side”. When the news broke I started checking your site every few hours to get the real lowdown on what happened.  The mainstream media, who is tough as hell on police in racial issues, just refuses to ask tough question in this case.

    The sheriff is obviously ignorant of biker culture and doesn’t seem to know the difference between a Bandidos patch and a Bikers Against Child Abuse patch.  The number of mistakes, errors, and lies he made in his early press releases continue to be exposed as real information comes out.

    But most importantly, I knew you would highlight the incredibly unconstitutional mass arrest of people when there is no evidence of them committing a crime.  I think once the lawyers get hired they are gonna rip that sheriff and county judicial system new asshole.

  3. Frank Says:

    As an outsider to the culture, I have been deeply disturbed by what happened in Waco.
    I also have a lot of sympathy for those who lost their lives and those that lost loved ones.

    Having grown up in the late sixties, I have always had an interest in bikes and also the different clubs that seemed to be at most parties, concerts and other events.

    I would like to express my opinion about this forum having read it off and on for several months.
    I believe that Rebel does an awesome job as an objective investigative blogger/journalist and is a fair and respectful moderator. I have also read some great commentary based on sound logic and valid points.
    But a lot of times I read down right nasty personal attacks on someone, outright dismissive statements with not even a flimsy counter argument. Then the posting ends with a threat of what would happen to that person and finally a demand to show RESPECT.
    Which group is representative of the majority of bikers?

    Thanks. I am hoping to get a better perspective of what it means to Respect from real bikers because it seems that the media interprets that it means to cower under intimidation. And when you don’t, the weapons come out.

  4. Steel Says:

    I have a difficult time believing that in an altercation as short as the cops say it was that the patch holders caused that much injury and death. Very difficult to do with handguns. Quite easy to do with fully automatic weapons. The next clue will be when the autopsies are sealed for whatever reason. I believe the cops opened up and killed and wounded most everyone that was shot. Right now it is arrest everyone to shut them up for the present. This buys time to gin up a story by the cops. Just my two cents.

    Ride Free. Respects to the deserving.


  5. RLG Says:

    Some say the end is near.
    Some say we’ll see Armageddon soon.
    I certainly hope we will.
    I sure could use a vacation from this

    Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of freaks

    Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call L.A.
    The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
    Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
    Learn to swim, I’ll see you down in Arizona Bay.

    Fret for your figure and
    Fret for your latte and
    Fret for your lawsuit and
    Fret for your hairpiece and
    Fret for your Prozac and
    Fret for your pilot and
    Fret for your contract and
    Fret for your car.

    It’s a bullshit three ring circus sideshow of freaks

  6. ABikerWithAnOpinion Says:

    If anything good could come out of this, it’s that hopefully the powers that be in the MC world will finally wake up and realize that fighting and killing over what patch someone else wears is going to be the end of the MC world as we know it. If every MC & all the COC’s across the U.S. would adopt a policy today stating “The only time an MC can take exception to another MC wearing patches is when that MC is impersonating their MC” then 99% of the conflicts would be gone immediately. It’s time all MC’s learn to live in peace or sooner rather than later all MC’s will be a thing of the past. I for one love the MC world and want to see it continue to grow and flourish. But we’ve got to realize the world we live in and the reality of life today. The days of biker wars and people killing because they don’t like the fact someone is wanting to have their own club close to your club are over. We can’t keep going on like this. Either we all pull together as a community and adopt a live and let live attitude when it comes to ALL clubs or our community will be doomed.

  7. tommy Says:

    RLG – thats one of the best songs ever made

  8. Asskiller Says:

    Let’s throw this out there for a moment.

    1. A patch is private property.

    2. A patch is also protected First Amendment expression.

    3. Nearly a dozen killed and over a score wounded by State gunfire.

    4. Targets appear to be selected based on the possession of lawful private property and the public expression of a protected statement.

    Hypothesis: Americans may have been selected for killing by the State for their speech… and further, beyond the First Amendment’s free speech and lawful assembly and the Fourth Amendment’s due process we have the following from the Fifth:

    “No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury…” The Fifth Amendment was just pissed on with the revolving door mass charging of 170 citizens with capital offenses.

    And don’t give me “public danger”. That danger – a barrage of murderous automatic State gunfire on a lawful citizen assembly, following the insertion of agents provocateur by said State – was created by that State.

    As they announce, “This is a test.” But in this case, this is not only a test.

    It’s a testing in production. That’s done when the implementation entity is in haste, and is trying to crash the product schedule to accommodate impatient stakeholders.

  9. Factor Says:


    Apology accepted and appreciated. Thank you for clarifying that. In any event, no harm done.


  10. Woodstock Says:

    The Constitution is exactly what solari said it is. It doesn’t mean a goddamn thing.

  11. aka rc Says:


    While watching Sgt. Swansons amped up rantings on “breaking news” I could not help asking myself, what is this guy on? Then seeing the rantings played over and over again on most media without question, I was almost motivated to resurrect my old blog bigbendbikersforfreedom. Fortunately you are there and saw that you/your site was being referenced by many other sites. If not the insane cable news networks. Thank you for doing such a good job I was able to avoid temptation.

    I did see where a “Chainsaw” commented and if it is who I think I wanted say, “hey Chainsaw”.

    The people here probably do not need to be reminded of Blackstones formulation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_formulation, “It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”, paraphrased by both Ben Franklin and John Adams.

    The one million dollar bail prescribed for possible innocents is egregious beyond words. So of course we hear across the land…..lock em all up!

  12. G Says:

    Am I lost here….how many police officers were shot and killed? 170 bikers with all those thousands of guns and not one cop was shot. Help me out here, is it because bikers are bad shots? I want the media to stop calling us “gangs” or start calling the cops “gangs” as they wear “uniforms” and “patches” and hang out in groups so they must be gangs too. There is absolutely no way 170 guys and girls all had guns, knives or “weapons” at that scene. Somebody from a Christian club was unarmed. This is pure set up by law enforcement. I hope they are ready for what they started.

  13. Phuquehed Says:

    Little fag Jay boy in that video trying to come across like he knows shit.

    Cute little curly sperm-catcher you got there, Jay.

  14. mike Says:

    i think what some are forgetting that to most of the older more radical Clubs this turf BS is about business , money earned from whatever their into ,someone comes into your area they’ll pay or they’ll be forced to leave by whatever means deemed suitable , its all about business , and if you take their cuts and colors they just find another way to identify which club they belong to .

  15. Frank Says:

    I am disappointed that no one has taken the opportunity to clarify what this so desirable RESPECT is.
    Yet everyone says the media has gone unchallenged.

    And everyone talks about how the police are lying. Which is probably true, and how the civil rights of the bikers were violate by the police, which is also probably true.

    But what no one on this site except the Biker with an Opinion has addressed is the issue which I recall reading about as a kid in Easyriders way back when it was a real biker magazine. When you could buy biker pipes to toke while riding and get ordained as a minister for $5.00 to visit your brother in jail.
    And that article was titled ” This Shit Has Got To Stop”
    And as a little kid, the idea of being a biker was pretty cool except that you could get killed for wearing your colors in the wrong place, caught alone without a weapon, or ran off the road by another club who happened to drive by in a truck or van.
    Bikers killing bikers for bottom rockers makes it easier for common folk to feel that cops killing bikers to get rid of them is OK.

    I think that bikers RESPECTING other bikers will go a lot further towards getting Respect from the community.
    Bottom line is that the police are the hired guns that the common folk hired to eliminate the outlaws.
    Read your history. Calling them liars and pussies is not going to change anything.
    Claiming your rights are being violated and violating others constitutional rights is not going to get you any sympathy.

    Either declare war on society and conquer or learn to exist within under the radar.
    Call yourself an outlaw if you want, but do not expect that you are entitled to the same rights as in laws.
    Outlaws do no vote, get gun permits,or invited to ice cream socials.
    And I am not going to be surprised if venom is tossed my way.
    But I would prefer honest dialogue with genuine articulate rebuttal on any points you disagree with.
    I am a firm believer in individual rights, and the right to defend them but also believe that trust and respect for any individual should be earned on a one on one basis and not because you endured someone else’s version of trial by fire.

  16. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    Hi Frank,

    Gentlemen, if I may (with deep respect and a thorough understanding of my place):

    “Outlaw” means “we don’t need you.” It means “We keep our own peace, by means tried and true and tradionally understood.” It means, “Our rights are inalienable.” “Outlaw” means (among other things reserved for the men to speak of), “autonomous code of fundamental, sensical ethics.”

    In keeping with this definition, you will find that the majority of “outlaw bikers” are intelligent, hard-working, responsible, generous, and somewhat cavalier with regard to “societal norms.” Respect is not a given among such men… and why would it be? It is a fundamental truth -one that is often ignored in today’s society – that in order to be respected, one must be RESPECTABLE.

    Gentlemen, forgive me if I am out of line. I felt passionate about responding to Frank. Much respect to the regulars.

  17. PJ Says:

    Frank, you asked for rebuttal, and I would like to rebut this : “I am a firm believer in individual rights, and the right to defend them but also believe that trust and respect for any individual should be earned on a one on one basis and not because you endured someone else’s version of trial by fire.”

    Trust and respect are not one and the same. You cannot trust what you don’t respect, but you can respect what you don’t trust. Typically, when you want to earn the respect AND trust of someone, you don’t get to do it on your terms. It will be on their terms, because, how can you expect me to trust AND respect you when you dictate the terms?

    Or to put it another way, I’ll let you live your way of life so long as you don’t try to force it down my throat. Funny, but bikers have never tried to force their way of life on me. Can’t say the same about other demographics…

  18. Rusty Says:

    Well said PJ…well said.

    Respect to the deserving

  19. FF Says:


    You speak real truth to power, PJ. Respect.

    Where or when have bikers in general or 1%er/MC PH’ers in specific ever imposed their way of life on anybody else? Never as far as I can tell.

    YOu know, I read over and over again people leaving posts trashing this club or that club, it’s always somebody with an axe to grind ie dad’s in jail, they are outbad, somobody ratted on them etc

    The only thing I really have to say to all that is Did that club just pick your name out of a hat or a phone book and just show up at your door one day and made you join their club? LMAO no way, you had to have seeked them out. You had to have WANTED to join and you would have had to pass a rigerous background check and prospecting phase. Whatever happened that went south on you after you patched in, well, maybe you played the primary role in that bad shit going down.

    So nobody is going to break out a violin and a box of tissues for your crybaby story.

    You want to dance with the devil you better be prepared to pay the fiddler.

    Frequent Drinker

    Have a great weekend everybody. Remember silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

  20. ABikerWithAnOpinion Says:

    Frank, I’m glad to see someone else bringing up what I mentioned. We should be respectful of one another, no matter what patch we wear. The MC world professes to stand for freedom & respect. And in my heart I think that is still true. But we have problems, serious problems. And one of the biggest is the fact that while professing a love of freedom & respect in our lifestyle we have some clubs and COC’s dictating who can and cannot fly when and where or even who can and cannot even be a club. We can’t keep going this way. We’ve got to learn to live together in peace. And that means if a group of guys in the town over from yours want to form their own club, then they have every right to do so and fly their colors with the only limitation being they cannot imitate or try to pass themselves off as another club. The established clubs should welcome them in and let them know from the onset that this is a PEACEFUL community and that peace is built on mutual respect between clubs living side by side in peace. Clubs should treat each other as neighbors and that means treat their fellow clubs the way you want to be treated. WE talk about biker unity and brotherhood & respect. Well it’s time the MC world starts truly and fully walking the walk when it comes to these things. This is how we have to move forward. This is the only answer for the MC world to have any hope of a future. I just pray that people in positions of power in the MC world realize this before it’s too late.

  21. Shovelhead Says:

    You’re repeating the same propaganda the Feds and Pigs put out there. The term “Outlaw” as it pertains to Bikers, has nothing to do with being a criminal. It has to do with 1% of Bikers not following AMA rules from the 1940’s. The pigs love to use the term “Gang” to describe Motorcycle Clubs, so they can attack Americans in clubs without the Public getting worried their Constitutional rights are being stepped on, because, hey…their gang members right??

    Wake the fuck up!! If the Feds and Pigs can get away with this kind of attack, they can attack any group of Americans they want. All they have to do is call a particular group who has the audacity to question authority, Outlaws, Gangs or terrorists and it’s open season.
    Germany went through this in the 40’s. Think it can’t happen here?

  22. Asskiller Says:

    @Shovelhead – “Think it can’t happen here?”

    Respectfully, would point out that it already is, if you look at leading indicators.

  23. ABikerWithAnOpinion Says:

    You make a good point, Shovelhead. But we’ve got to realize that to the general public, right or wrong, they see us all as criminals, thugs, trash, you name it. The only people that can change that perception is us and we’ve got to start changing that perception now.

    And that goes back to what I’ve been talking about, the need for true peace and respect to becoming the watchwords of the MC community. And the first step in that direction has to be stopping this practice of some clubs and COC’s dictating who can and cannot be a club and fly their colors. The issue of who can wear what and where for decades has been the biggest cause of problems between clubs since clubs first appeared. And now, all these conflicts, rivalries, and fights do is give the Feds & pigs the excuse they’re looking for to come down on us all with both feet.

    We’ve got a choice to make and time for deliberation on what choice to go with is fast ticking away. Either we learn to live in peace as neighbors or we risk our lifestyle being relegated to the dust bin of history. And I can’t speak for anyone else except myself, I personally would rather my son learn about club life from me as he grows up and I pass it on down to him instead of him having to go read about us in the history books.

  24. Frank Says:

    I appreciate your response and agree with many of your statements. In fact, I am not sure if you are actually agreeing or disagreeing with me in your rebuttal.

    1. PJ Says:
    May 21, 2015 at 8:41 pm
    Frank, you asked for rebuttal, and I would like to rebut this : “I am a firm believer in individual rights, and the right to defend them but also believe that trust and respect for any individual should be earned on a one on one basis and not because you endured someone else’s version of trial by fire.”
    “Trust and respect are not one and the same.”
    I totally agree. And most dictionaries also do.
    Trust : belief that someone or something is reliable, good, honest, effective, etc.
    Since no one provided their understanding of respect, I will also consult Miriam-Webster.
    Respect: Noun
    a feeling of admiring someone or something that is good, valuable, important, etc.
    : a feeling or understanding that someone or something is important, serious, etc., and should be treated in an appropriate way
    : a particular way of thinking about or looking at something
    Respect; Verb
    : to feel admiration for (someone or something) : to regard (someone or something) as being worthy of admiration because of good qualities
    : to act in a way which shows that you are aware of (someone’s rights, wishes, etc.)
    : to treat or deal with (something that is good or valuable) in a proper way
    Respect can also be used to describe as deference to another nation or cultures way of doing things. Examples would be a Head of State bowing to a King. Or not pointing at someone in Japan because it is considered rude.
    “You cannot trust what you don’t respect, but you can respect what you don’t trust.”
    I disagree because I believe that world leaders show respect to each other with very little actual trust that their stated agenda is their actual agenda.
    “Typically, when you want to earn the respect AND trust of someone, you don’t get to do it on your terms. It will be on their terms, because, how can you expect me to trust AND respect you when you dictate the terms?”
    I totally agree again when I said that to earn my trust and respect that it has to done on my terms. But I actually do not have any real burning desire to be trusted or respected by anyone outside of my close associates. Anyone else and it is their loss and has no impact on me. LOL. I am not running for political office and would be very suspicious of anyone trying to earn my trust without knowing their motivation.
    “Or to put it another way, I’ll let you live your way of life so long as you don’t try to force it down my throat. Funny, but bikers have never tried to force their way of life on me. Can’t say the same about other demographics…”
    Interesting statement, but isn’t that one of the major disagreements that clubs fight about.
    Live your life but don’t do it on my turf. Do not wear what I say you can’t. Express your opinion and I will disrespect your right to live.
    And to say that other demographics are trying to force their way of life on you would need much more in depth discussion about force before I comment on your situation.
    In my case, religious nut jobs, extremists on both of the left and right, and sometimes your average moron having road rage have tried to coerce me to see their way as correct.
    But back to my original belief, and like religion, beliefs are hard to rebut.
    I am a firm believer in individual rights, and the right to defend them but also believe that trust and respect for any individual should be earned on a one on one basis and not because you endured someone else’s version of trial by fire.”
    I am not changing that one for anyone.
    But I am open to being enlightened or shown incorrect on some of my other points.


    Rusty Says:
    May 22, 2015 at 4:16 am
    Well said PJ…well said.

    Respect to the deserving.

    I totally agree. Who gets to define who that is?

  25. Frank Says:

    To Shovelhead:

    May 22, 2015 at 7:40 am
    You’re repeating the same propaganda the Feds and Pigs put out there. The term

    I disagree. Please be specific about what propaganda I am repeating.
    I find it disrespectful to accuse someone of doing something without evidence.
    Sounds familiar.

    Regardless of origins of the term 1%, there are in fact two clubs that call them selves that.
    One in English and one in a variant misspelling of the Mexican language.
    People tend to be judged by how they portray themselves.

  26. Shovelhead Says:

    Your words Frank!! Understand now?

    “Call yourself an outlaw if you want, but do not expect that you are entitled to the same rights as in laws.
    Outlaws do no vote, get gun permits,or invited to ice cream socials.
    And I am not going to be surprised if venom is tossed my way”.

  27. Frank Says:


    With all due respect, I misread your statement and in fact do agree with you on this point.

    “You cannot trust what you don’t respect, but you can respect what you don’t trust.”
    I disagree because I believe that world leaders show respect to each other with very little actual trust that their stated agenda is their actual agenda.

    My response actually supports your statement. I misspoke.

  28. Frank Says:

    Hi Shovelhead,

    I do understand. This is a very sensitive issue with a lot of folks.

    I clearly said that you can do whatever you want. That is not repeating propaganda.

    I actually follow a Taoist philosophy that is big on individual responsibility. If one is willing to except both the emotional and societal consequences,than you can do just about anything you want.
    Except suicide which is thought to be the ultimate “Sin” or personal disrespect with major Karmic consequences.

    And communication and language happens to be an important part of how people function and react.

    If I call myself a felon, someone might think twice before giving me a gun permit. Regardless if within my subculture, that means nice guy.

    It is not propaganda that some clubs use names that a lot off people would associate with less than desirable aspects life.

    If you call yourself a G** Damm Camel F***ing Gypsy [email protected]@rd, then some people may believe you are.

    But I am going to disengage. My goal was to get some perspective and I have. I also do not feel that I have more to contribute to this situation than my opinions which I have expressed.

    I want to thank Rebel for the opportunity to post and for everyone for your posts.
    Hopefully this incident will not have a major negative impact on the way all bikers want to exercise their right to pursue happiness.


  29. PJ Says:

    Frank, you said “I totally agree again when I said that to earn my trust and respect that it has to done on my terms.” But in your original post you contradict this with “I am a firm believer in individual rights, and the right to defend them but also believe that trust and respect for any individual should be earned on a one on one basis and not because you endured someone else’s version of trial by fire.”

    Someone else’s trial by fire is earning it on a one-on-one basis. You asked for a definition of respect but I believe it will not (or more likely, cannot) be given, because it is subjective. One man’s version will be different than another. Truth is objective; there may be differing opinion, but that is denial. It is up to the individual seeking to earn respect to do so by the rules in place.

    I don’t decide I want to join a club and then go dictate to other clubs how I want to go about doing it. If I do not like current policy, I have three choices: 1- go about my business and drop it, 2- join and try to change policy once in, 3- fight for my right to exist how I want. All of which are perfectly acceptable, so long as you are prepared to deal with consequences.

    You asked for my examples of forced belief. Bikers have never come to my house asking me if I want to talk about clubs. Bikers have never got in my face, stated they were pre-ride trans-biker, and do I find it offensive.

    I also spent the last half or so of my career in the Navy going to various flavor of the month celebrations, but they never held one for my demographic (I found the celebration of diversity= anything not white and male very ironic in an organization that prides itself on rigid rules of conformity). I personally could care less about anyone’s sexual habits or skin color, but I was taught you have to be careful as a leader because what you do for one, you do for all. Or you don’t do it.

    America prides itself on individualism and cannot fathom why anyone would put the tribe ahead of the self. And those in charge cannot stand groups not dependent on them for livelihood or that cannot be controlled.

    An anecdote to all this: I heard about a SEAL that left active duty because he got sick of the ‘new’ Navy. When asked why, ‘Used to be if we had a disagreement we went out back and kicked the shit out of each other until someone admitted they were wrong. Now, you write folks up, ruin careers. Fuck that.’ I grew up in some of that Navy and missed the days when stupid just hurt, vice wrecked your life.

  30. Frank Says:

    I thought I was clear but obviously I was not.
    I take responsibility for my sloppy use of pronouns.
    The intent of the statement was to imply that Respect from an individual is purist when earned from that individual.
    This is counter to the idea that some feel that because they rightfully earned respect by any organization by meeting that organizations requirements and expectations that they can automatically command respect from others outside that organization.
    An example would be: I respect certain WW 2 Marines for acts of valor that the demonstrated on Iwo Jima. I also respect the Marines for their actions in that battle. But I do not neccessarily respect every individual who fought in that action because some could be shitheads.

    In that light, I do not see the contradiction.
    Demanding respect in my opinion will only get passive compliance. Or aggressive defiance. And sometimes outright hostilities and war.
    Having said that, I totally honor your right to believe that I am completely FOS on this issue. Would not be the first time in my life that I was wrong.
    Now I will honor my previous comment and just follow this thread going forward.
    Hoping to learn more about others beliefs on this topic.
    And thanks PJ for your service to this country.
    Without knowing you as an individual, I can gratefully respect that contribution.
    My long deceased father told me similar stories of valuable lessons he learned in the Army taught outside normal protocols. I think he had greater respect for those non coms than any by the book officers.

  31. Wolfenlover Says:

    Hey FRANK, with all this research into the “LIFE” you are doing, ARE YOU
    CLICKING THE ADS? OR donating?! You sure are eating up a bunch of Rebel’s band-
    width with your erudition.

    RESPECTS Rebel & to the regulars

  32. Joe S Says:

    Does anyone know if there were any cop clubs at the CoC meeting?? If yes, did they get arrested? If they were not present, WHY NOT??

  33. Asskiller Says:

    @Frank – when I was younger and had seen less shit, I thought that respectful language, employed to communicate intelligent analysis of nuanced situations, would be appreciated by all and sundry. That no matter the situation, a calm and thoughtful approach would calm the savage beast in all.

    That was when I was young, dumb and inexperienced. Then I learned that there are some that simply don’t care whether your argument is nuanced and thoughtful, demonstrating your intelligent and balanced analysis – they already fucking disagree, because the facts they see are real and not theoretical and theory ain’t ultimately shit. Practice is.

    I got a little older and then I learned the flip side of it. That being a sophisticated observer with deep and penetrating analysis, and delivering that analysis with acute awareness of my own intelligence and persipicacity, was nothing of the sort. It was just being a pontificating arrogant asshole, demonstrating disconnect from the real world of meat, asphalt and metal.

    Real is real. A is A. Twenty-seven people shot, nine to death, by prepositioned paramilitary forces of the State and then eight score mass capital charge arrests specifically designed to muzzle and terrify witnesses – that’s a simple thing to identify. It doesn’t matter whether the frippery bullshit around the edges gets talked about all day long or not, or whether there can be subtle cultural adjustments to wisely Guide the Narrative to a Happy Place.

    The Government machine-gunned a bunch of people and is threatening the hell out of anyone who saw it.

    That is called “war”.

    You can go on all day about tactical decisions and sociopolitical concerns and the nuances of rules of engagement – but the original Waco siege and massacre in 1993 was similar. The Government shot, gassed, burned and crushed 76 people to death. Not one Federal agent paid one dollar in fines or spent one day in jail.

    That is also called “war”.

    You can discuss the beliefs of the Weaver family and the entrapment that took place and the ad nauseum details of Ruby Ridge – but the facts on the ground are that a family was cut down with gunfire, including a pregnant woman shot through the head as she held her infant. And the Government taunted the family through the next days over loudspeakers as the murdered woman’s children wept over her bloody corpse. And not one Federal agent paid one dollar in fines or spent one day in jail.

    That is also called “war”.

    My estimation of the rule of Constitutional law in the United States bottomed out at about the same time Vicky Weaver’s cranial contents hit the ground next to her infant. And I bulldozed my expectations of future legitimacy right alongside the tractors at Waco removing the evidence.

    That is called a “state of war”. I know, beyond doubt, I’m not the only one who has done some intelligent AND meat-world analysis and feels this way.

    I find that this war started with the militarization of law enforcement; the growing willingness of the State to engage in open tyranny and murder; and the belief of those who have entrenched themselves within the ranks of said State, that they are now institutionally beyond the danger of open murderous revolt by the vengeance-driven general public against their specific persons. There are a multitudinous array of different sociopolitical miscalculations. Not all are fatal, but some kinds of corrective social changes always have been to those who believe it cannot happen to them. #RomanianTermLimits.

    Virtually all human beings have the will and wherewithal for lethal aggression against agents of the State if their conditions are sufficiently oppressive, despairing, hopeless and brutal. Create conditions where there is nothing left to lose and any human has the capacity for exiting the world with a bang of vengeance against the deservingly hated. What most fail to grasp is the banality of the process.

    It is not through virtuous indignation and aroused ideology, adherence to political fantasy or even (usually) religious duty that people revolt. It comes through desperation. When your child is shot in front of you, your wife bayoneted as she crawls to him, your property burnt and your daughter passed around in front of you… then the human heart forces the hand to action. This is why dictatorships and tyrannies that maintain efficient locomotive schedules and minimal nutritional support for their populations tend to survive. When State agents commit horror and genocide you’ll have your revolution. Shooting family pets and destroying 1/6th of the national economy is not going to trigger it.

    Automatic weapons fire from prepositioned military forces into a crowd of Americans, followed by mass arrests not even signed off on by a real judge… you tell me, Frank, when the time comes to return fire and overthrow oppressive government.

    Do you have a threshold? Is there anything that would motivate you to raise the flag and commence firing back? Do you even think about it? Do you consider yourself free? Are you determined to live free, or die?

    Death is not the worst of evils.

    Mass death by tyrannical government is. History has proven this over and over and over again. Anyone who doesn’t feel the gears grinding again in this generation, at home and abroad, has a dangerous deficit in meat world attention.

    And click some fucking ads please.

  34. bcnasty Says:

    True words and folks are getting to that point. I gave up on hope that it would never happen . Now just wait for the day.

  35. John Deaux Says:

    You nailed it on the head.
    Much Respect.

  36. Bone Head Says:

    Texas COC had a list of state officials’ email addresses and wanted people to write them and express their viewpoints. I’m not a Texas resident, but I wrote anyway. Imagine my surprise when the Lt. Gov. replied…

    I would like to thank you for taking the time to write to me about the recent events in Waco, Texas. I always appreciate hearing from great citizens like you who care about the future of our great state of Texas.

    While I am truly sorry to learn of the perceived actions of one of Texas’ local law enforcement agency, it is imperative that our law enforcement officers have the necessary tools to combat problems around our great state of Texas. It is very gratified to hear that you are committed to the safety and welfare of your fellow Texans.

    I invite you to visit my official website, at https://www.ltgov.state.tx.us/ to contact my office directly and share your thoughts and ideas.

    Again, thank you for sharing your comments with me. I encourage you to continue making your voice heard to the officials who represent you, and stay involved in the issues affecting our great state of Texas.

    Form letter…I know. Just the tone of it leaves me tired and exasperated.

  37. Wolfenlover Says:

    Thanks Bone Head! That just saved me some stamps. JSMFH It really shouldn’t be
    any surprise to get that kind of response. Again, JSMFH

    RESPECTS Rebel & to the regulars

  38. herman Says:

    thought I read that years later wasnt it Randy? Weaver was awarded damages?

  39. herman Says:

    Respect Asskiller , probably dont matter coming from a unknown, but hey
    maybe someday I can buy you a beer

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