ATF Eats Its Own

October 27, 2014

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This page reported five weeks ago that the law suit filed by Jay Dobyns, once an agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Forearms and Explosives, against his former employer had finally been resolved. Not so fast.

Last Friday David A. Harrington, Senior Trial Counsel with the Commercial Litigation Branch of the Civil Division of the Department of Justice paid $505 to file notice that he was appealing Judge Francis M. Allegra’s mostly symbolic ruling in favor of Dobyns. The appeal is one of the few documents in the dispute that is not sealed. About an hour later, Allegra filed a sealed order in the case.

Four things are immediately obvious about the twin filings. First the people of the United States have no right to know what has and is happening in this extraordinarily high profile secret case. Second, this six year long dispute between Dobyns and the ATF has become embarrassingly personal. Third, the nation that not so very long ago sent men to the moon, bragged it had never lost a war and had the most advanced infrastructure in the world has now become a sadistic state that is virtually incapable of accomplishing anything except punishing its own people. And finally, as many readers already know, when Uncle Sugar decides to get you he becomes the terminator. He just won’t stop ever. It doesn’t matter who you are.


Dobyns was a highly public and self-dramatizing hero of the war on outlaw motorcycle clubs. Largely with the cooperation and encouragement of senior ATF officials Dobyns was named cop of the year, made countless television and personal appearances, was the hero of two true-crime genre books by Kerrie Droban and Julian Sher, wrote a third book about his adventures with the help of children’s book author Nils Johnson-Shelton, got a movie deal with Tony Scott and was praised by influencers as diverse as Steve Gaghan and Joe “Donnie Brasco” Pistone.

It was all great publicity for the ATF which was upgrading its image from the fireworks police to the tip of the spear in America’s war on “gangs.” Dobyns embraced the cartoon the ATF wanted him to be. “I know I can get over on people,” Dobyns had bragged to Sher. Although the case for which he became famous was blatantly corrupt and mostly unsuccessful, Dobyns apparently did have some success getting over on the Hells Angels. Obviously he didn’t get over quite so well on his supervisors at the ATF.

Dobyns was lauded as a “true American hero” who “out of a sense of duty…closed his eyes and made a journey into hell” and “brought honor to the ATF.” Part of the myth that Dobyns both cultivated and had thrust upon him was that he was the target of various revenge plots by the Hells Angels. Droban reported, for example, that Dobyns and another ATF anti-biker warrior named Darrin Koslowski had been confronted by an enraged Angel named Bob McKay.

“‘You won’t get away with this punk bitch,’ the biker seethed, his voice a threatening whisper. ‘We’ll find you. We’ll get you. For the rest of your life you’ll be running from the devil.’” It is a great scene and with someone as veracious as Kozlowski to vouch for it and Droban, who has described herself as “the female Woodward and Bernstein” to report it how could it not be true?

Donnie Brasco

Dobyns took the allegation and ran with it. He became a very public incarnation of the myth of Donnie Brasco – a tortured hero forced to live in two opposite worlds, who is damned to betray one of them and then in turn is betrayed by the one to which he has given his loyalty and his heart.

Dobyns was reassigned at least four times after his attempted infiltration of the Angels – to Washington, the California Central Coast and Los Angeles twice. Snitches hoping to gain official favor reported multiple plots to “get” Dobyns. Some of them, like an alleged plot to videotape the rape of his wife and daughter were lurid. More typical was a report that claimed a guy who knew a guy in the Hells Angels had learned the Angels were “going to start our campaign against Dobyns. We know where he is….”

Dobyns complained that he was being inadequately protected. In his version of events, many in the ATF resented Dobyns status as a prima donna. One supervisor told him he “had worn out his welcome with ATF” and added, “If I have my way you’ll spend the rest of your career in Headquarters or Guam.  I am familiar with Anderson Air Force Base there.  It is a postage stamp in the middle of nowhere. A perfect place for you to finish your career.”


In 2007, after the apparently bogus report of a “campaign against” him and the alleged threat by his supervisor to send him to Guam, Dobyns sued the Bureau. He settled the suit in September of that year for $173,000 but the ATF was late with its payment. Dobyns moved back to Tucson where, he claimed, he was in the greatest danger from the Angels.

In August 2008 somebody set a fire on Dobyns back porch. The severity of the incident has been described both as a small fire that caused about $30,000 damage and as an inferno that almost killed his family and destroyed his house. An ATF supervisor named Dobyns a suspect in the fire.

Dobyns filed suit against the ATF again in October 2008. This time he wanted more than $4 million: $1.6 million to compensate him for his “suffering;” $600 thousand to compensate his wife and children for their “suffering;” $200 thousand for his lawyer; and ten years pay at the rate of $185,000 per year. The ATF responded by countersuing Dobyns for the profits from his book titled No Angel: My Harrowing Undercover Journey To The Inner Circle Of The Hells Angels.

Eventually Dobyns upped his demands to $17.2 million of which $10 million was to compensate him for “economic damages” and the rest as compensation for his trouble.

Virtually all of the case has been sealed since January 2012. The case was tried in secret in the summer of 2013 in two sessions in Tucson and Washington, DC. The ATF wanted the trial to be public. Dobyns argued that what he knew was just too dangerous to reveal to the world.

Dobyns Sort Of Wins

In a verdict last August 25 that was not made public until the following month Judge Allegra ruled the ATF still owed Dobyns the $173,000 he settled for in 2007 and not a penny more.

Allegra found that, “The disclosure of Agent Dobyns’ identity in court led to threats of death and violence directed at him and his family.”

His decision revealed that Dobyns had “reported consistent symptoms of anxiety, depression, and uncertainty relating to his conflict with ATF. At trial, (psychologist) Dr. (Todd) Linaman further testified that Agent Dobyns’ primary care physician prescribed Lexapro and Trazodone, both drugs used to treat anxiety and depression. While it is unclear, from the record, that Agent Dobyns met the formal criteria for a diagnosis of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, there is little doubt that he experienced symptoms of depression and anxiety.”

Allegra described the ATF as Kafkaesque and compared Dobyns long employment dispute to Franz Kafka’s novel The Trial. “There,” Allegra lectured, “Kafka depicts a totalitarian state in which the government suppressed freedom via a deluge of circuitous and irrational process. One of the techniques employed was the ‘non-final acquittal.’ Kafka describes these acquittals thusly: ‘That is to say, when (the accused) is acquitted in this fashion the charge is lifted from (his) shoulders for the time being, but it continues to hover above (him) and can, as soon as an order comes from on high, be laid upon  (him) again.” Experiences like these unfortunately bring to mind those that Agent Dobyns experienced in the years following the execution of the Settlement Agreement – a time that should have been one of healing and reconciliation, but that instead gave certain ATF officials and agents the opportunity to harm Agent Dobyns further. In the court’s view, the actions of these ATF employees indisputably breached the covenant of good faith and fair dealing. That breach caused Agent Dobyns to suffer mental distress, as well as pain and suffering, which, in turn, entitles him to the damages awarded below. Hopefully, this will bring this Kafkaesque story to an end.”

Obviously, the Department of Justice considers Dobyns’ Pyrrhic victory “non-final.” Somebody with a closetful of nice suits wants to make an example out of Dobyns and it is hard to find anybody to root for.


97 Responses to “ATF Eats Its Own”

  1. Eochaidh MacDhalaigh OghaChruithne Says:

    I’m still a little buzzed from last night. Who the fuck is Dave?

  2. Eochaidh MacDhalaigh OghaChruithne Says:

    Best wishes, Dave. As anyone can read on my Apache WarDance Facebook photo album: “Fuck the Police,” one or more law enforcement agencies (or Bureaus) is trying to either murder me or frame me for the murder of Larry Link. Today is Wednesday 10 December 2014. Last night my room-mate Doris who is a snitch gave me her credit card to go to the store and pick up two 40s and a pizza. We’ve been out of food and beer for a few days (the “no-food” diet). When I returned, I noticed that her credit card is actually her government food card (I don’t have one and therefore don’t know what they’re called). Many times in the past, she’s ask me to use that card and I always told her no because I don’t need to take that risk. Last night she got me. Right after I had downed my Hurricane and three fourths of the pizza, in walks her friend who I had met previously, let’s call her Donna and a new friend, let’s call her Debbi McGarrett – a N.A.R.C. In my opinion, Doris’s handler. Donna had already gone into the other room and I asked Debbi if I could finish the last piece of pizza. As soon as I do, Doris said it was for Donna. She played the same mind game last week when she sent me to store for some beer, two pizzas and other stuff. She was short on money and she made it clear what to get. Of course, when I get back, I should have gotten two 40s even though I was also supposed to follow her instructions to the letter so that there would be enough money. Anyway, last night I’m tripping on Doris’s mind games while talking with Donna. Debbi pulls out the stereotypical glass meth pipe and passes it around. A little later she disappears into Doris’s room. When Debbi came out of the other room she set down on the countre in front of Donna and me, something wrapped in toilet paper and returns to the other room. The thing looked remarkably about the same size and shape as her stereotypical glass (finger print friendly) meth pipe. Of course, I unwrap it and sure enough leave a good set of prints on it. The funny thing is Debbi never said that meth was smoked in it. I had my buzz from the malt liquor and couldn’t remember Debbi’s name. So, I asked her. It seemed to be the same that she said before; but, I can’t remember either time. During the night Debbi proved she’s Five – O the same way all undercovers do. She knew everything about everybody in Silver City, Lordsburg, and Larry Link, Ken, the Bandidos, the Mongols, the Bloods, the Crips, etc and then gave me only the information that the government wanted to give me. She also offered me a hit off of her cigarette, like she knew I get a buzz from tobacco. That’s funny because on a youtube video about a motorcycle club, a vice president said that he got a little suspicious about the new guy who was a friend of a “patch” who turned out to be a NARC, when the new guy asked the vice president if he wanted a 7-Up and the V.P. thought how did he know I drink 7-Up, we’ve never met before, this guy must have really done his home-work. Anyway, my Narc went into coloured bandanas and pointed out that she was wearing a grey coloured one; which is funny, because another Narc, about two weeks ago, having been brought into my home by, guess who (yes, my room-mate, Doris) told me that Larry Link was murdered by the Grey Ghosts or he may have said Gray Riders – it could have been either, I was buzzed again on a 40. It’s really funny how right after my room-mate gets me drunk, her friends show up. When last night’s new arrivals started calling each other and me, “Dawg,” I started feeling almost among friends and soon turned in for the night. When I woke up this morning, I couldn’t remember Debbi’s name. But, I do remember her saying last night: “You can’t remember her name.” Last night was a little hazy and I thought she was referring to New Mexico state police, who she said are the worst cops in New Mexico before she added the disclaimer: “Not all cops are bad.” Regardless, this morning while trying to remember the undercover’s name, I realized that her statement: “You can’t remember her name.” was a post-hypnotic suggestion. Then, I started getting a little worried, because she wanted my prints on her meth pipe and in front of her friend Donna; they got me. The weird thing is last week I found a broken cleaned out light bulb used to smoke meth on the countre. I washed it out and broke it into little piece too small for finger prints. I thought, this too easy, they’re not going to get me. Whatever, I wanted to remember Debbi’s name and had to ask my room-mate, Doris, who brings Narcs into my home whenever I score a 40. No matter how I phrased it, when I asked her for Debbi’s name just before walking out the door, she’d be suspicious. So, first I asked about Donna and then asked: “What’s that chick’s name who was with Donna?” Doris answered: “Someone in town. She lives over there” and pointed out the window. Of course, I asked: “Next door?” Of course, Doris answers: “No, on the other side of town.” Then she added: “She’s OK, you don’t have to worry.” She didn’t have to say, “I’m not giving you my handler’s name, you drunken bastard.” As I stated in my album, Mary Link suddenly blubbered during our phone call: “My father wasn’t a bad man.” I’m beginning to think that whenever anyone blurts out something like “she’s alright;” they’re not alright.

  3. panamaa Says:

    crazeephil Says:
    November 9th, 2014 at 10:10 pm
    Dobyns probably does have ptsd and should be paid for it.


    Dobyns is a lie’in, whiny, crooked piece of shit… Whatever happens to him he’s got no sympathy from me….

  4. Mercyful Fate Says:


    “an agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Forearms and Explosives”

    Forearms? That damn agency is now enforcing forearm regulations?!?

    Intentional or not, made me chuckle.
    All in good fun,

  5. crazeephil Says:

    Dobyns probably does have ptsd and should be paid for it. He risked his life and was chewed up and spit out by the atf and left with few career options after. Anyone who has lived years with the risk of someone possibly killing you knows it changes you and whether you sold drugs, or gangbanged, or were a 1 percenter or a undercover cop, your not the person you were before you start one of these lifestyles, i wonder how many people commenting really know about this mentality. Riding a motorcyclè and acting like a tough guy on message boards doesn’t mean you know anything about living outside the safer confines of the law where the penalty comes as a bullet in the head. I’m not saying a handler for these guys are like the men risking life to penetrate this life but for both the criminals and undercovers who become accountable to there actions knowing death is the penalty it changes you and you can’t go back to looking at things like a civilian. Ptsd is not just for soldiers, ask anyone who has been shot at, or had a pistol put in his face, its not something you forget and you just look at things differently after. Thats my two cents and i’m not a cop or a one percenter but I know enough about accountability to know hard experiences outside the lines of the law make you a different person, especially years of life that calcify you into something else.

  6. RtC Says:

    @ Rebel, finally got to see “America’s Book Of Secrets” on the HA. You seem to be pretty photogenic. Guess that’s a complimentary term. Least it was meant that way. Too bad they don’t give you more exposure for info/truth you have. I’d actually like to see an unbiased program about you. All these so called “experts”(Dobyns Cook Falco & the dwarf Ciccone)) would get a good ass-burnin’ if the truth were told!Too bad. Wouldn’t let you tell the REAL TRUTH. Oh well, a man can have his dreams, right?
    Anyway, Jaybirdshit- Dobyns sure is a lying motherfucker ain’t he. Is
    that bastard on psychotropics or what? Official report: $30,000 damage to
    his house. On the show “BURNT TO THE GROUND”. BUT the sheeple buy whatever these fucks with badges sell. Just proof the GOV has been spikin’ the Koolaid to dumb down the American people.
    Steppin’ down now… Just keep up the great work of truth you do Rebel.
    RESPECTS for the REAL

  7. RtC Says:

    Thanks Icebreaker. That was the “1 Infraction, 1 Tooth” piece? I made
    several for Goon (Ride In Peace) & family. He had posted that & I decided
    to stamp it out for him. Said he thought that would be a pretty good
    “theme” for him when he got it. lol
    RESPECTS for the REAL

  8. StrategyIsZen Says:

    Elle – I just realized what I wrote did not make complete sense. It has been told to me that there are two basic interactions with people. In one interaction, they use you or you use them. In another interaction, they help you or you help them. So much in life, in my opinion, is learning the difference between the two. I think it has to do with discernment.

    I have also learned to never trust words. I just trust “movement,” if that makes sense.

    Also, literally, I watch “where people stand.” Not “what they stand for,” but literally “where do people physically stand.”

    Just two cents. And much respect.

  9. StrategyIsZen Says:

    Elle – welcome. I just wanted to try and explain why I sometimes post stupid things. If not for people in the local church and biker communities, I think I would have ended up in a very bad place. So would people around me. I thought I was a scary monster. I am not. Feeling alone in this world is the worst thing. I am blessed to not feel alone or unique now. Today Bishop talked about how our words create our futures. So I keep focusing on saying better and better words. I know that seems simple, but I have seen it work for people. I was using alcohol, money, drugs, and people to try and run from my own head. Now just letting it go. No other logical choice. I have seen people send themselves to hell. I do not want to go out like that. Welcome again and thank you.

  10. ElleElle Says:

    Hey-at least we can all agree that all Dobbie did was try to make money any way he could, from any angle he could and used everybody he could along the way to do it-including throwing himself under his own bus.

    @Tooj and @SIZ-thank you for speaking up for yourselves and telling us what your posts really were all about-but you didn’t really have to…and I mean that VERY respectfully to everyone else who posts in here. I only say this because if Dobbies garbage had a sideway twist of helping someone else in this venue with PTSD issues-good. I suppose it (PTSD) could be called a lot of different things and I suppose it could be one’s OWN, and not mine.

    Again, glad we do all agree on Dobyns intentions being pretty damned clear.

    As usual, REBEL-your articles serve many purposes.

  11. rollinnorth Says:

    Speaking of Kafkaesque:

    “Bingo hunting occurs when police officers check motorist’s license plates for possible outstanding infractions even though no infraction has been observed by the officer.

    The name stems from officers randomly inputting the data from license plates, and — ‘bingo!’ — finding out the vehicle is unregistered, or has been involved in some criminal activity such as in Audet’s case.

    ‘A license plate check is done without the person knowing so there’s not really any governmental intrusion … to their personal lives.’
    Sgt. Charles “Chip” Chabot, Auburn police department”


  12. Icebreaker Says:

    RVN69, thanks, hope all is well with you and yours there….

    Not Surprised and Jim666, thanks for the kind words….

    RtC, no problem… Have seen the concho you made for Goon (RIP), you do good work…



  13. Paladin Says:

    If you’ve been raised in a normal family ( whatever that is), you’re programmed to believe that other than in the act of self defense or the defense of others, killing another human being is wrong. We learn this at home, in school, and in church. It is also the theme of many books, movies and Saturday morning westerns, when there were Saturday morning westerns.

    The military machine has long been aware that in order to defeat the enemy and win wars, civilians have to be reprogrammed into soldiers. One of the ways this is done is by dehumanizing the enemy by referring to them as Krauts, Japs, Dinks, Slopes, Slants, etc. Today’s enemies are: Sand Niggers, Bedouin Bugs, Rag Heads and so forth. Films and pictures are shown of the enemy committing atrocities against the innocent. Pretty soon the enemy is seen as nothing more than vermin. Anyone have any sympathy for the Taliban or ISIS?

    Soldiers reenter civilian life with their military programming intact. Combat soldiers reenter civilian life with their military programming intact and depending on how much combat they’ve seen will dictate whether they realize it or not, they’re to what extent they’re addicted to adrenalin. Without the “action” to support the needed adrenalin, the adrenalin dependent becomes depressed, which can and sometimes does lead to suicide.

    Soldiers reentering civilian life have to somehow mentally pick up where they left off before they became soldiers. Unfortunately; there’s been a lot more interest, research, and effort in successfully programming civilians into becoming soldiers than there has been in reprogramming soldiers into becoming successful civilians.

    The world of the soldier, especially the combat soldier is closed to the civilian world. Consequently; when soldiers reenter the civilian world as veterans, there really isn’t anyone qualified to help them make that transition, except for possibly another qualified veteran and they’re in very short supply.
    To this day, soldiers reentering civilian life are pretty much left to their own devices on how to reintegrate. Some are more successful than others; some aren’t successful at all.

    Long May You Ride (to those that deserve to),


  14. 2old2ride Says:

    @Not Surprised,
    Condolences on your loss.

  15. Paladin Says:

    Not Suprised,

    There’s no way that I can ever know how you felt or feel, after losing you wife. I can only offer you my heart felt condolences and wish for you all that you would wish for yourself.

    Long May You Ride,


  16. RtC Says:


  17. Not Surprised Says:

    OL Lady Rider:

    Be pleased to heat from you. Rebel has my e-mail.

  18. Jim666 Says:

    Not Surprised

    Sincere condolences on your loss.

    Be careful w/ the PTSD meds they can and more than likely will fuck your head up at least till you find the right dosage, Better if you can only take it as needed . Best wishes w/ it all .


  19. Not Surprised Says:

    @ Icebreaker:

    You say you have recently been pegged with PTSD. I can tell you it took me awhile to “wrap my head” around it but eventually, I was just glad there was a name for it and to know I wasn’t unique or crazy. Hope you get some comfort soon.


    Yes. PTSD in a relationship is a two headed beast. Sometimes the beast is the devourer.

    To everyone else:

    Thank you for the thoughts.

  20. RVN69 Says:

    RtC, I know IceBreaker, I know his patch, I know where he lives, he ain’t hardly “New” and he doesn’t talk shit. You can take his statement to the bank.


  21. RVN69 Says:

    Not Surprised, My deepest condolences for your loss.


  22. Tooj Says:

    Not Surprised,

    Your question to me makes a whole lot more sense now. My condolences to you. I know it isn’t easy on BOTH sides of the coin. Right now I am one side and my old lady gets far more bullshit to deal with than she deserves…walking on eggshells. I sure as fuck ain’t proud of it.


    I have the self same concerns about the knee-jerk reactions to returning vets. The sort of thing that happens with success. It’s a money thing. How many agencies have set up in the past five years to collect your “donations” with a big old “it’s for the vets” tag line? Ten years?

    Take AA; they’ve are successful with a TRUE alcoholic, so every court, Dick and Harry says “Go to AA.” as a method for dealing with a hard drinker or someone self medicating an emotional or stress condition, effectively “watering down” what was once so effective; drunk speaking to drunk. (Not to mention those government grants and funds for providing “treatment facilities”. But they are NOT ALL BAD.)

    And it doesn’t help the person sent there, BECAUSE THEY DON’T SUFFER THE CONDITION. “Send them away” is the same thing as “Give them pills”; it is a way to immediately effect change in the person who makes others uncomfortable. They don’t even have to ask, just prescribe.

    So there’s these IO-type fucktards who want to come in here spouting off PTSD like it’s a “Red Badge of Courage”. That sort of thing amazes me and not in a good way. Just like “We don’t ASK permission, we’re vets.” Bullshit is what I smell.

    Of COURSE, Dobyns is going to leverage every specialist and probably even a couple witch doctors to make his living in court. He’s someone obviously GLAD to receive the label ‘PTSD’ with all the connotations. It fits his Narcissistic Personality Disorder as long as he presents himself as being above the fray and merely “correcting the agency and protecting others this may happen to”.

    Dobyns knows it, so telling him is like teaching a pig to tap dance. You’re going to get frustrated and it only manages to annoy the pig.

  23. Rambler Says:

    To not surprised, my condolences for your loss.
    To Took, I offer my apology if anything in my posts belittles PTSD in anyway. I don’t believe you have to take part in active combat to get PTSD. This may not be in line with what the med field says but I think you’re more likely to get PTSD if you’re not in combat. My problem with PTSD being thrown around in the military like it is, is I think it is a misdiagnosis in many cases. It’s easier for the government to say “PTSD! Give him pills!” than it is to fix the real problem. We, speaking only in reference to myself and other 11 bang bangs I speak with, see past the bullshit now. They, the government and society, don’t want to fix the problems. They want to cover them up.

  24. Ronbo Says:

    Not Surprised, Sorry to hear of your loss.
    Hang in there.

    Head on a swivel


  25. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    Dear Not Surprised:

    I am so sorry for your loss. As one who came very close to losing the battle, I mourn deeply for your wife’s struggles and am heartbroken for your grief. Please email me if I can help in any way.

    To All: I also apologize for not being clear. CPTSD = Complex PTSD.

  26. sherides Says:

    Not Surprised,

    I am so sorry for your loss.


  27. Icebreaker Says:

    Not Surprised, sorry for your loss. Condolences.

    RtC, NEW generation? Thank you, but at age 48, I can hardly be called new….



  28. Road Rage Says:

    Not Surprised

    Sorry for your loss. Stay Strong.

    with respect

    Road Rage

  29. StrategyIsZen Says:

    Rtc – again, my apologies. I am a real person, which sometimes means that I say things that irritate other real people. That is my local reputation as well. People who know me think that my heart is good, as do I.

    I admit I make mistakes as well. And I do agree that you nailed something in the other thread about me doing “me” stuff. I actually changed slightly because of what you said, and it was helpful to me. I thank you for that.

    Not my intent to disrespect you.


  30. Not Surprised Says:

    Combat PTSD gets its own classification, period. Doesn’t make it any more or less damaging than any other form.

    “Civilian” PTSD? I lost my wife to suicide last year from PTSD. She was 49.

    Thus I am probably a little non objective and will just exit the conversation.

  31. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    With much due respect, RtC, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder as a formal diagnosis did not hit the DSM until 1980. Prior to that, the symptoms were attributd to ‘shell shock” (WwI and WWII), “combat fatigue,” “traumatic war neurosis,.” and “gross stress reaction.” Gross Stress Reaction was eliminated from the DSM entirely in 1968, and the disorder was added again in 1980 as PTSD and attributed to many different types of stressors.

    Though PTSD is common in combat veterans, CPTSD is rarely seen unless as a pre-existing condition prior to military service. PTSD is also common in rape victims, victims of large scale natural disasters, victims of bad traffic accidents, and children of domestically violent relationships. CPTSD, seen almost exclusively in the civilian population, is much more debilitating and much more difficult to treat.

    Again, with much respect, I must agree with Icebreaker that dismissing civilians who also suffer the psychological damage of high intensity stressors limits our collective ability to reach out to each other for healing and empathy.

  32. Bill Says:

    RtC Says:
    October 29th, 2014 at 6:38 pm

    SIZ, maybe you oughta think about moving?

    StrategyIsZen Says:
    October 29th, 2014 at 8:35 pm

    RtC – that is a good point.

    RtC Says:
    October 30th, 2014 at 6:17 pm

    SIZ, my post was NOT directed to you, in any way.

  33. RtC Says:

    SIZ, my post was NOT directed to you, in any way. HOWEVER, you feel that
    every post is directed towards you, don’t you?! You have so many more
    problems & your experiences are so much more intense than ANY ONE ELSE’S,everybody should heed your word!? YOU are still fucking WHINING!YOUR EYES,
    YOUR CHURCH, YOUR LITTLE HOLE…..You might puke if you had to endure what I’ve had to. PTSD has been mentioned & of course YOU HAVE IT!!!! NO ONE else here WHINES, or tries to impress anybody else with “DEATH I’VE SEEN!” OR “You know how close I came….”
    I think you are a poseur with an agenda, that has fooled some others here with your “rhetoric” You seem to know a LOT of words & who’s to say you aren’t “pasteing”this,on Rebel’s site? You sure repeated the same shit enough! I think you are a fucking FAKE! You don’t have a fucking BIKE waiting for you! TOO MUCH space trying to prove your point.
    You think everybody’s post is aimed at you. Well, THIS one is! Waste
    bandspace & whine somewhere fucking ELSE! No matter what anybody else
    has, YOU got it worse! CONCEITED MOTHER FUCKER!
    And Icebreaker, you are among the NEW Gen that use the term,
    that was originated before your time.

  34. Meh Says:

    Confirmed for a lunatic for turning down a posting to Guam.

    The salutary feature of this case is the feud between Dobyns and ATF. That’s got to give any agent pause about committing to infiltrate when they may be treated like a used rubber afterwards.

    Worth mentioning for the vets here is that there are experiments with treating PTS victims with MDMA. Not really an odd idea as many SEA vets explored psychedelics after they returned. With the right “set and setting” they can be useful for self-exploration.

  35. UnaffiliatedObserver Says:

    I’ve never had any dealings with ATF, but I suppose it doesn’t really surprise me that they would hire a man to befriend and deceive others, and then give him a good screwing themselves.

    At some point, though, Dobyns had to realize that the operating procedure the agency used on its targets could eventually be used on him.

    With any luck at all, the details of this war of attrition between Dobyns and ATF will eventually be unsealed so the dirty laundry can make it into the history books.

  36. Witchy Says:

    Two words…FUCK HIM

  37. ElleElle Says:

    @OldLadyRider-I couldn’t agree more. Nicely said. I have seen it from many different angles and I would be a liar to say that I haven’t also seen people overcome. I totally agree with what you said OLR. Sometimes I think the devil people know is easier than the devil they don’t yet know? It’s a crap shoot for some….some are not ready to go there and no one has a right to tell them how or when or what they are supposed to do to get there. I think this is just as wrong..but boy, when they do-the Victory must be pretty sweet. :)

  38. Icebreaker Says:

    Ol’LadyRider says:

    “War wears many faces, and thus PTSD/CPTSD does as well.”

    How true…

    RtC, saying only Vets can get it (of which I am one), does a disservice to others, including children, that go through horror, war at home, abandonment, seeing murder, etc…..

    I was diagnosed recently, still wrapping my head around it… Not a boots on the ground Vet…
    Fuck, lived with a bipolar chick for almost 19 years, there is medicine for things, I don’t think that it is a shill… They got medicine for a headache, for bipolar, for a stomach ache, I figure this, gonna try the medicine, and see what happens, cause I cant live like this anymore…..

    Some wise words in here from Kman, Not Surprised, CN, Ol’LadyRider, among others…



  39. BMW Says:

    I know who I would like to see lose this case, but I can’t find anyone I would like to see win this case…

    L,H&R TO ALL 1% RIDERS!!!

  40. StrategyIsZen Says:

    RtC – that is a good point. What I figured out was that getting drunk on street corners was the problem. I live way back in the back of the neighborhood. It is actually the safest part of this entire town. Literally. Nobody comes back this far.

    This kind of goes to that thing about life choices. I was sending myself to hell by hanging out up there. Also, it’s not like people in my neighborhood do not ride bikes and read the internet. I say same things to faces here. I am always suggesting “if you don’t like heat, get out of fire.” That is something I learned from fire.

    Much respect.


  41. Ol'LadyRider Says:

    War wears many faces, and thus PTSD/CPTSD does as well. In my humble opinion (based on certain life experiences), many of our warriors suffered from PTSD/CPTSD prior to entering military service. When a child grows up learning that his/her home is not safe… then understanding that the world is not safe… the adult the child becomes wants only to find a way to feel safe – even as his/her subconscious mind compels him/her to seek out the most unsafe situation possible because that is all he/she knows. Thus the attraction of combat service. Yes, he places himself deliberately and willingly in harm’s way, but NOW he has tools. He has armor. He has backup. He has a feeling of control. He has all those things that helpless, terrified, unsupported child did not have.

    Until he/she realizes that that safety and control is an illusion. And the world is not only unsafe, it is gruesome and heartbreaking and unjust and cold and uncaring. And guilt, self-loathing, horror, and utter darkness join the clamoring of the subconscious mind… drowning out any conscious attempts at reason or healing.

    My somewhat-educated guess is that close to 30% of active-duty/veterans were already suffering from PTSD/CPTSD prior to enlistment, which could then translate to a similar ratio in the civilian population in general.

    Healing IS possible, though I’ve never seen it happen through medication OR talk therapy. Medication may help sleeplessness, irritability, and anxiety… but it wont heal the wounds. And talk therapy only keeps the subconscious belief systems in place by reinforcing them over and over again. One must turn inward to heal. And “inward” for many of us is even more terrifying than that unsafe outside world we’ve known since we can remember.

    Just my $.02 on the PTSD discussion. I don’t even care about old JayBird. He’ll just keep getting what’s coming to him.

  42. ElleElle Says:

    It’s been called different things through the years for different reasons and with good reason:

    Soldier’s Heart comes from the physiological model, the observations that people’s cardiovascular system in terms of their heart dynamics, their blood pressure, a pulse rate, seemed to be altered.
    World War I, another physical explanation was SHELL SHOCK, the notion being that being close to the big guns pounding out the artillery on both sides of the barbed wire in the trench warfare was somehow disrupting neuronal connections, so nerves were actually affected.
    Combat exhaustion, COMBAT FATIGUE — physical types of manifestations… Following the Gulf War

    PTSD is that it can incorporates both the physical manifestations — and alterations in someone’s physiology and even cause medical problems as well as psychological problems.

    My mother was a survivor of WW2. As a child in England, she used to literally watch dog fights happening on a daily basis above her head. She remembers walking home from school in the countryside of England and seeing “man down and plane down” with his leg and boot a few hundred yards away. Before they moved her at age 7 out of her mothers arms to live with strangers for 6 years the sirens would sound off right before London was once again getting ready to have the holy hell bombed out of it…I believe they called that THE BLITZ.
    My mom is 83, alive and well and has since lived a very full life.
    To this very day, the sound of a siren rolling down a road someway pretty much has the same effect on her that it did when she was young.
    I am pretty sure that trauma comes in all forms-and that is never to take away any disrespect from anyone who served in the Military. I grew up in the Military and I have the utmost respect for the armed forces. I just hope that people realize that they can be healed up-every individual has that ability-when they are able.

  43. RtC Says:

    SIZ, maybe you oughta think about moving?
    I know. You’ll have a long drawn out reason you don’t.
    If the place I lived caused me so much stress to consider it
    PTSD, I’D FUCKING MOVE! Who needs that shit in their life?
    If you aren’t fighting in WAR…

  44. Tooj Says:

    I fear that our age is so enslaved to ideology that we can no longer notice what is obvious and natural, or think sensitively about history, or craft analogies that can stand a moment of analysis.

  45. StrategyIsZen Says:

    Rtc – I do not disagree, yet at same time – what is different than taking a life as a civilian, and taking a life as a soldier? What is different than seeing a life taken as a civilian, and seeing a life taken as a soldier? When I was younger, I very nearly did the first, more than one time. I mean very close. I have seen more than one person shot in my life. The last time was in April of this year, right here where I live in this little urban hole. 22 year old woman, her entire top of head splattered up into the headliner of her car. All I know is what was in media. Me and some people were standing on corner drinking tequila. This was back when I drank. We kept drinking. I was kind of freaking out a little bit, but was also really drunk so I did not notice until the next few weeks. I remember talking to one of the other people that night. I said “why are you not upset?” He said, “this happens all the time.” I could see he was holding back tears. So was I. I would humbly submit that such things have effects on people. Again, not to disagree, just raising a point from my experience.

    Much respect.


  46. Metal Dave Says:

    10-Gauge, fuckin’ A right sir…

    Dawbinz, eat a fuckin’ dick shaped smoothbore already, living pile of shit

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